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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Monday, October 31, 2005

Propaganda????

You make up your own mind on this. No comment from me!

21 Comments:

At 10/31/2005 04:48:00 AM, Anonymous Jordan from Left Canada said...

I thought Hamas agreed to no longer use kids. There will never be peace as long as palestinians actually want their kids to blow themselves up. How do you fight little kids?

 
At 10/31/2005 06:46:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And you believe what Hammas has to say? There truely has to be a special place in hell for anyone who would teach and use children like this.

 
At 10/31/2005 06:53:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If this isn't propaganda, then I don't know what is. The Palestinian children are brainwashed with this kind of suicide bomber mentality from a very eary age. When you sow that kind of hatred into such impressionable minds, somebody you'll get yourself a new batch of suicide bombers. Those parents are despicable.

Here this baby is saying,"
Get the hell away from me!!"



jonas976

 
At 10/31/2005 07:47:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, this is not propaganda. This is their idea of cute kiddie pictures. Remember, these are the people that were caught dancing in the streets on 9/11 until Yasser Arafat told them to stop.

 
At 10/31/2005 09:11:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

proves how sick palestinians have become & why they dont deserve to have their own country. No now or in thenext century till they change their ways & mentality.

 
At 10/31/2005 09:15:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

I am totally against Hamas and terrorism, but like it or not, Palestinians are under occupation. Violence is not legitimate but it's hard for them to say thank you and smile.

 
At 10/31/2005 09:26:00 AM, Blogger Baltic Waves said...

vox populi - that is a crock of sh-t! My country (one of the baltic countries ) was under soviet occupation/rule for 40 years before we gained our freedom, we never resorted to using children to kill, beheading persons and screaming how some pagen wanabe god is great, or any of those other warm and fuzzys that seem to make up the vile followers of this movement!

 
At 10/31/2005 10:32:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vox Populi, apologist/justifiers such as yourself are the reason they have gotten away with this sort of sh!t for years. If the world quit speaking like that and turned their backs on these acts,demanded that if they want a country that they act responsible enough to have one, this stuff would stop.

 
At 10/31/2005 10:45:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Vox,
The occupation in my opinion is like this -
You go to the doctor for an infected gash/sore on your arm. The Doc looks at it and says oh you just need some topical anti biotic cream and a bandage. Wash and clean it regularly.
After a week the skin completely heals. 2 weeks later you go back to the Doctor because your arms is killing you and there is a big black and blue mark there now that is extremely painful. The Doc does another examination and says - "Oh there must be an infection in the bones underneath."

Whether or not the gash on the skin led to the infection underneath or vica versa it doesn't even matter anymore.

 
At 10/31/2005 11:12:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

As I said, I am totally opposed to Hamas, and I am totally against Islamism and those who know me well know that it's stupid to accuse me of being an apologist. But colonization and confiscation of land in the west bank is in violoation of international law and common sense and cannot be justified. Period.

 
At 10/31/2005 11:27:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Mike, the Israelo-Palestinian conflict has been poisonning the region for too long. A peace is needed, not only for the Israeli and Palestinians, but also for Lebanon who has been victim of collateral damage from this conflict for too long. While I agree that an independent Palestinian state won't necessarily bring peace, it is certain that there can't be peace without a Palestinian state. And this state will never happen if colonization continues.

I've nothing against Israelis, quite the contrary, I go out with a lot of them and most of them vote Likud. I've always warned them about colonization and told them that it is against their interests. Colonization makes the creation of a Palestinian state impossible. It makes peace impossible. Israelis will be condemned to live with the Palestinians forever and you know that this implies perpetual war.

 
At 10/31/2005 11:39:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Vox I'm familiar with you which is why I didn't even bather with the apologist labeling of you.

Now that I re-read my story I realize it can be used as an example in a couple of different ways. I was referring to the flawed (too mild a term perhaps)
nature of Palestinian life, politics and zeitgeist as being the infection underneath. I think that infection really began to become so during Jordanian and Egyptian occupation.

Btw, you 'hang out' with Israelis or 'date' Israeli women?

 
At 10/31/2005 11:53:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

VOX -
I've always warned them about colonization and told them that it is against their interests. Colonization makes the creation of a Palestinian state impossible. It makes peace impossible. Israelis will be condemned to live with the Palestinians forever and you know that this implies perpetual war.
What does? that they have to live with the Palestinians? -OR- the lack of a Palestinian State?

I don't think a Palestinian state is going to prevent a state of rejectionism and war from the Palis towards the Israelis. And that's not even mentioning the Arab States and the Refugee Camps.

A few points to consider -

1) Most Israelis believe they're will NEVER be real 'peace' there.

2) There may be a perpetual 'state of war' there for decades.

3) Israelis are 'condemned' to live with the Palestinians forever (as you said) regardless of a state or not.

Not that I think a map's lines is in anyway the problem or solution to this. As everyone involved, State, Israeli Gov't, PLO, Arab States and EU all have seen and know what the Taba and Dec 2000 map lines look like and that they will likely be the final lines, if ever.

However, some complex Points -
1) Should Israel give up Eastern Jerusalem? The Palis there don't want the PLO running their lives?

2) Should Israel be forced to give up control of the Western Wall?

3) Should Israel give up all towns in and around Jerusalem, Gush Etzion and Maael Adumin?

4) Should Israel have to give up Ariel in Samaria where they have a huge majority?

5) Should Arab towns/cities along the Green Line go to the PLO? Uhm Fahz (spelling) a radical town that openly supports Hezballah, the mayor said he didn't want to become a part of a future PLO state nor would he trade his Israeli citizenship for any Arab State's citizenship for any amount of money?

The problem for Israel besides the fact of why should an Israeli not be able to live in safety in Hebron as Arabs do in Israel.
IS THIS -
A Hamastan/Al AsquaStan, Islamic Jihadistan, Hezballahland in Gaza is bad enough, but one in the West Bank is not going to "lead to peace" but only to full scale and dangerous escalation and war.

Now if you think the Arab States, Pali people and PLO has demonstrated that they can handle this and won't let it happen, then you tell me.

I believe for all his posturing the King of Jordan does not want a Pali state right now.

 
At 10/31/2005 12:40:00 PM, Anonymous Jordan from Left Canada said...

Since 1948, Israel has done everything they could to obtain a political solution. Israel doesn't want to be in Gaza or the West Bank anymore than the Palestinians want them there. (except for the few hebrew ultra-nationalists who can suck the most kosher part of my ass)

As a Jew, I am the first to say that the settlements were a dumbass idea! What the hell Sharon was smoking is beyond me.

For the last 50 years, arab states would attack Israel, lose, and then Israel would take land (a buffer zone). Israel would then return the land in exchange for a promise for peace. This is a perfectly justifiable strategy and in fact, should be commended!

Along with this, Israel has put agreed to many offers that would give Palestinians 97% of what they want. And Arafat would reject it everytime with no counter offer.

Yes, Palestinians are suffering under an occupation. But I think it is about time we blame the terrorist, their arab financiers, and Arafat for their misery. Israel has proven many times over they want peace, Palestinians have to do the same.

During the Holocaust, the Jews never once resorted to killing innocent civilians or revenge attacks. We especially never trained our children to blow up other children.

 
At 10/31/2005 02:05:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Israel doesn't want to be in Gaza or the West Bank anymore than the Palestinians want them there. (except for the few hebrew ultra-nationalists who can suck the most kosher part of my ass)

Not exactly true.

All the water wells are in the West Bank.

Israel needed it in the past as a defense for the middle of Israel, where EVERYone lives, that is a whopping 12-15 miles wide.

The West Banks is where the entire Judaic history is, religious or not. There are several hundred thousand people living in the 'West Bank' so I hardly would
consider this "only ultra orthodox"

They get several hundred thousand even now in Hebron, the 2nd holiest Judaic city in the world, for the holidays.

As a Jew, I am the first to say that the settlements were a dumbass idea! What the hell Sharon was smoking is beyond me.

1) Jerusalem is the center of Jewish life and Jews were prevented from going into even the Jewish Quarter or visit the Wall.

2) The Arab world didn't want it at all and it was a shithole so they built it up and settled there particularly around Jerusalem.

Along with this, Israel has put agreed to many offers that would give Palestinians 97% of what they want. And Arafat would reject it everytime with no counter offer.

Get no arguments from me here. Though the leftists try to dismiss this offer ever occured and stick to Camp David maps. If you read Ross's interview on this it's pretty fin clear though that even Arafat's goons couldn't believe the offer in front of them and that the Fish rejected it.

 
At 10/31/2005 05:29:00 PM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 10/31/2005 05:35:00 PM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

"What does? that they have to live with the Palestinians? -OR- the lack of a Palestinian State?"

Technically, Israel has four alternatives. Regardless of the human rights and morality, these options are :

-an independent Palestinian state
-a binational state where the jews will be a minority
-send all Palestinians to Jordan
-keep the Palestinians and have a perpetual war

If you look at the situation with a realist eye, only scenario 1 and 2 are plausible. Scenario 3 is not plausible because most Israelis are decent persons and you'll never secure a politcal majority for 'relocation'. Scenario 4 is not really a scenario: wars always end. Scenario 4 is only temporary.

Israelis may think that they are colonizing Palestinians, but in fact it's the opposite.

I am not saying that a Palestinian state will necessarily bring peace - Hamas can still fire rockets accross the border and Al Qaeda will still be around. But peace is a desirable thing and the risk is worth it. Sometimes, you have to assume that the good side is stronger than the bad side because there is no other choice.

 
At 10/31/2005 05:57:00 PM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Mike, I can't give an answer to your valid questions. Only Israelis and Palestinians can settle these problems. The thing is that this conflict is not only about Israel and the Palestinians anymore.

I don't agree with people who link the rise of Islamism to the creation of Israel or the 67 war. Islamism is rising because people in the west are not sure about its values and stopped spreading them. But the Israelo-Palestinian conflict is giving to the Islamist a golden argument to convince the masses. Whenever the West tries to do something good, Islamists give you the Israel argument.

You're trying to give freedom to the Iraqis and spread democracy in Iraq? Islamists say to the masses: you don't really care because you're not doing anything about the Palestinians.

You want to prevent Iran from getting nukes. Islamists say to the masses : what about Israel?

Whatever the West does to convince Muslims that islamism is dangerous, they get this stupid Israel argument. I am really fed up with this. I want to take this argument from them that's the only thing that interests me in this conflict.

 
At 10/31/2005 06:32:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

The thing is that this conflict is not only about Israel and the Palestinians anymore.

Vox it NEVER was. It's ALWAYS been an Arab Israeli conflict for the most part. The perpetuation of the Refugees is the doing of the Arab world and of course the wars in 48 and 67 were the Arab world.

The King of Jordan was commenting in the late 50's how it was disgusting how and what the Arab world was doing to the Arabs who fled. That's about 50 years ago.

I don't agree with people who link the rise of Islamism to the creation of Israel or the 67 war. Islamism is rising because people in the west are not sure about its values and stopped spreading them.

Only propagandists in the Arab world and their far leftist allies spread that or strongly infer it. Freedom for Egyptians, Big Pharaoh and others clearly state that it's not linked to or mainly to Israel.

But the Israelo-Palestinian conflict is giving to the Islamist a golden argument to convince the masses. Whenever the West tries to do something good, Islamists give you the Israel argument.

It is Israeli - you keep typing it wrong? The Islamists will always have that excuse as long as Israel exists if you really want to deep down analyze it. And whether or Pan Arabist or Islamist they go hand in hand with the same lines again as Freedom for Egyptians aptly pointed out in a great post I linked to a few weeks back.

You're trying to give freedom to the Iraqis and spread democracy in Iraq? Islamists say to the masses: you don't really care because you're not doing anything about the Palestinians.

Right, and the Arab League rejected the Saddam exile deal. They rejected the Taba and December 2001 peace deals. The Saudis supposedly backed Arafat in to reject it.

And what are they saying about Iraq?

Its a carrot stick situation. The Arab heads and Islamists don't want it "solved" and know that it's almost impossible to "solve" then they can't use it for their own purposes. Then they say "well if the Americans really wanted to help they would "solve" the Israeli Pali conflict." BRILLIANT AND DISGUSTING strategy.

The translation of that is this -
Israel should give something to get some quiet around here, while we promote violence, we'll temporarily muzzle the hose a bit.

OR LONG TERM -
"Israel should unilaterally give everything land wise the Palis want without any guarantee of safety or concessions from the Arab side... other than a 'nice promise' of 'normalization'... lol!
So invite death and war to your front step and invite terrorism and West Bankistan..... and we'll "recognize you".....

You want to prevent Iran from getting nukes. Islamists say to the masses : what about Israel?

Yeah and I don't think there is an Arab leader behind the scenes without cameras that would rather Iran have nukes than Israel. The Mullahs got some serious gripes with the Saudi Sunni world too. You could get rid of Israel and the Middle East ain't getting any better... I think that's the point of this, Sandmonkey and other blogs trying to tell the truth.

Whatever the West does to convince Muslims that islamism is dangerous, they get this stupid Israel argument. I am really fed up with this. I want to take this argument from them that's the only thing that interests me in this conflict.

And you honestly believe the Islamists and Pan Arab states are going to let this be 'taken away from them'??

Clinton said the same thing essentially - "If we solve the conflict they'll be forced to change without having it as an excuse anymore"

That's called PIPE dream. The only way it's going to change is by more and more moderates (Sandmonkey, Pharaoh, etc...) growing and calling out the Islamists and their Pan Arabist allies on American and European tv... and probably risking their lives in doing so... and it's a LONNNNNNNNNNNG WAY away....

I saw Benny Morris at NYU.... and I heard all the annoying questions from both sides... but 1 thing I sure as hell remember was the look on his face when asked about the long term prospects of the conflict

 
At 10/31/2005 06:47:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

VOX -
Scenario 4 is not 'tempoarary'. How long has the Irish British conflict been going on? I spoke to Northern Irish kids last summer all summer.... and the situation is A LOT worse there then you think. Also the 'temporariness' assumption assumes that a Pali state will "solve" the conflict. Is the conflict a Pali State or complete Arab Rejectionism and unwillingness to recognize Israel absorb Refugees and start teaching Arab kids about Israel and its ties to the land?

Israelis may think that they are colonizing Palestinians, but in fact it's the opposite.
I am not saying that a Palestinian state will necessarily bring peace - Hamas can still fire rockets accross the border and Al Qaeda will still be around. But peace is a desirable thing and the risk is worth it. Sometimes, you have to assume that the good side is stronger than the bad side because there is no other choice.


Again, it's not worth it if it brings more death, violence and kerosene. See OSLO.
Moderate Palis I have met were against that and arguing with their Jewish friends NOT to bring in the PLO for the Palis and Israelis sakes.

I think they realize your first sentence, and that's partly why they withdrew from Gaza and why Morris's look on his face was this IMO "The Arabs are going to push this until it comes down to us or them" and he indicated that all the pieces are there for this, including the continued radicalization of the Arabs in Israel... which the fence protects as much as Israeli Jews.

 
At 11/02/2005 07:16:00 AM, Anonymous Anat from Israel said...

For God's sake, folks. Whatever the wrongs and rights of Israel/Palestine, using children for war purposes is a war crime.

 

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