And the palestinian wonder why the US isn't more on their side!
Well, with shit like that being spewed on Palestinian Authority TV, it's actually amazing that the west is caring for the palestinians at all. The following are excerpts from a Friday sermon on Palestinian Authority TV. The preacher is Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris. PA TV aired this sermon on May 13, 2005 Ibrahim Mudeiris: Allah has tormented us with "the people most hostile to the believers" – the Jews. "Thou shalt find that the people most hostile to the believers to be the Jews and the polytheists." Allah warned His beloved Prophet Muhammad about the Jews, who had killed their prophets, forged their Torah, and sowed corruption throughout their history. With the establishment of the state of Israel, the entire Islamic nation was lost, because Israel is a cancer spreading through the body of the Islamic nation, and because the Jews are a virus resembling AIDS, from which the entire world suffers. Jews = AIDS. Got it! You will find that the Jews were behind all the civil strife in this world. The Jews are behind the suffering of the nations. All the civil strife in the world? All of it? Damn, they sure keep busy, huh? Ask Britain what it did to the Jews in the early sixth century. What did they do to the Jews? They expelled them, tortured them, and prevented them from entering Britain for more than 300 years. All this was because of what the Jews did in Britain. Ask France what it did to the Jews. They tortured them, expelled them, and burned their Talmud, because of the civil strife the Jews wanted to spark in France, in the days of Louis XIX. Ask Portugal what it did to the Jews. Ask Czarists Russia, which welcomed the Jews, who plotted to kill the Czar - so he massacred them. But don't ask Germany what it did to the Jews. It was the Jews who provoked Nazism to wage war against the entire world, when the Jews, using the Zionist movement, got other countries to wage an economic war on Germany and to boycott German merchandise. They provoked Russia, Britain, France, and Italy. This enraged the Germans toward the Jews, leading to the events of those days, which the Jews commemorating today. Ahh, so it's the Jews' fault that the Nazis persecuted them, killed them and burned them alive? Sheik Mudeiris, I salute you, you are such a fountain of knoweldge. We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world – except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relieved of the Jews - even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew. Now, can someone explain to me, after a jewish or an american or british person hears or reads this, why would they ever chose to be on the side of the palestinians, arabs or muslims? Shit, if i was a Jew and heard this and saw that it's a popular sentiment, i would be wondering why my leaders would be negotiating with the palestinians at all, instead of just killing those who want me dead first? I would also wonder, if that's not the popular sentiment amongst palestinians and if he is a radical as some people would argue or defend, then why are they allowing him airtime-let alone the friday sermon- on the PA channel and why haven't any moderate palestinians or muslims objected or voiced any sort of outcry against his "radical" statements? If i was in his place I would logically have to conclude that this is the popular sentiment in the palestinian and islamic society , that they are a threat to my own survival and livelihood and that any negotiation that might give them autonomy, independence or more funding would be the equivelant of virtual suicide. Wouldn't you think so if you were in his shoes? Look, we as arabs/ muslims/ whatever can't just play the victim, decry that we are opressed and persecuted, and yet be OK with venemous hate like this be spewed and spread throughout our society. We can't chant "Death to America" on one hand and wonder why they won't be more on our side. While the jews were holding out vigils, and stating that " we are all americans today", The Palestinians danced on the streets and handed out sweets and baklawas when 9/11 happend, and then they openly wonderd why the US was on the side of Israel. LOL. If you, dear reader, are one of those people, let me tell you the story of my friend Irina. My friend Irina- russian jewish US immigrant and current US customs agent- was all about the peace process and giving the palestinians equal rights with the rest of her family when a suicidebomber blew himself up in 2002 and killed her cousin, who was a peace activist. Since that Day her and her whole Labour -voting family turned against the palestinian peace process and became overnight Likud supporters, because- as she told me- they realized that day "that the palestinians don't differentiate between pro- and anti-peace jews; they are all jews to them and therefore they should all die." She used to get really upset and cry whenever she would hear about palestinian houses getting demolished or palestinian bystanders dying or getting injured in crossfire, and now, when she hears about stuff like that, she says that the one thing that crosses her mind is "better them then one of my family". Look, until we abandon hate-filled rhetoric against americans and jews, we can't complain about american and jewish hate-filled rhetoric against us. Until the palestinians stop all suicide-bombings and attacks inside Israel and against israelis, they can't complain about the Wall Israel is building to protect itself and how it's keeping them out. Until we abandon ideas such as destroying the state of Israel , taking back palestine and driving all the jews out, we can't complain that the US is giving Israel more military aid and is not faulting them for owning nuclear weapons. And until people like that Sheik are no longer representing popular arab/muslim/palestinian sentiment, we can't point fingers and accuse the jews of not wanting peace, cause-let's be honest here- we don't want it either! But if we don't want peace, then we want war, and it's a war that we know we can't win. So why the trash-talking when we can't do the walking? What's the point? We have to chose right now and chose wisely, because whatever we decide now will shape the future of our children and the next generations: We are either for peace and understanding, or we are for hate and war. There is no third choice, and our time is running out!
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 5/23/2005 01:48:00 AM
76 Comments:
i do believe this is one of your best posts.
the palestinian authority shouldn't have broadcasted that sermon. and if they- and other so-called arab governments- condemned sheiks who spoke like that more often i think the arab world would be in a very different place right now. and i also blame the hypocrtical audience. if you listen & believe such rhetoric, and believe that god, who you're taught is most merciful and forgiving, would encourage such incitement of hatred, then you're nothing but a hyporcite. if you believe that a group of poeple don't have a basic right to exist and deserved, no "provoked", Nazism, then you don't deserve the support of the rest of the world.
Of course they should have not broadcasted such a shameful thing..
And we wonder we arabs have no support in the world and are hated!!
The problem is a lot of people, like that sheikh, need to be educated.
They are the last people who should be talking and shouting and demonstrating, yet often it's them who get stuck on western news ' cameras.
They are hurting themselves more than USA and Israel need to do!
I think we should launch our own jihad against the likes of this prick and the many 'representatives' of Islam today. I want to ask those f*ckwits who told them they had a right to represent me. If they have a carte blanche from God to represent Islam, I'd like the fax number so I can get one myself.
I feel ashamed. Not because I'm Muslim, but because, in a way, I - like all of us - let this happen. By hiding from the facts, assuming extremisim doesn't affect me, I contributed to its eventual rise.
It has been said that the reason the peace process failed was because while the Israelis wanted peace, Arafat and the PA failed to prepare their people for it.
This is a cancer on Arab society. While we decry the totalitarian regimes, who afterall control the media throughout much of the Arab world, these same regimes are not helping by allowing such hatred to be spewed forth. (Of course as Sandmonkey, Tom Friedman and many others have pointed out, this is to their benefit)
Can't the Palestinians see that such hatred is inimical to securing peace. Peace is not a signature on a piece of paper. Peace is a frame of mind and an acceptance of the other society's right to exist and pursue their own fulfillment. Peace is mutual respect.
Great post Sandmonkey. This kind of speech is common and not just on PA TV but also throughout the Muslim world. However what is much worse than this is the use of PA TV to brainwash children into wanting to be shahids and to aspire to be suicide bombers. I feel that this is a society truly in moral decay. This indocrination was fully supported by Arafat.
http://www.pmw.org.il/
SM,
In order to keep fair view. Why don't you post to us what does the Israelis (espcially zionist) preach their people.
May be the Israelis need to wonder also why do they hate us? does it sound too American?
I thought your next post will be something more positive about Egypt or the arab world.
Still waiting
Two - that was composed! Very, very low key compared to what I (and SM for sure) was expecting from you :D
Good on ya!
DNA,
I know he posts this stuff to piss me off. He loves the Palestinians, Egyptians etc...too much you know. I'm just waiting for him to do some research and come up with what the Israelis support when it comes to hating arabs ;)
I always told him to stay balanced in his posts and bring two sides of the story alas, he is the Egyptiansandmonkey nothing change ;)Israel and America is too dear to his heart :)
Can't wait to read the pro-arab posts ya Rabi :)that he promised.
The suspense is killing me lol
Oops! the above was a reply to unkown not DNA sorry
Hellme: Declaring our own Jihad on them is a fabolous idea and i am with you on it 100%. Anyone else wants to join in?
Sally & Catherine: you guys are preaching to the choir here. You know i agree!
Twosret: I knew that you weren't gonna like this post. I just knew it.LoL oh well..
To answer your question, i would have to be totally honest and blunt with you: You ask why i don't post what the zionist preach to give a fair view, and my answer is that i don't see how it is at all relevant to the issue i am discussing here, nor do i care about what another hatemonger might be preaching. They are not my problem, simply because they are not the one represnting me and my people; people like that Sheikh are.
They are the ones running their mouth with this kind of irresposnible hatefull rhetoric that you know leads nowehere positive. They are the ones that allow our so called enemies to point fingers at us and say " look what the arab barbarians are saying". And unfortunately, they are the ones that dominate the thoughts of the majority of the arab and muslim youth because moderate arabs and muslims continue like cowards to keep their mouths shut. So yeah, i am gonna talk about him and people like him and denounce them every goddamn chance i get, because most people just make excuses for them, or like you, claim that it is not fair to put them on full blast, because there are jews and americans do it too, like that makes it any better or excuses it.
And i am sorry, but i am sick and tired of the "but they are bad too" line of thinking. I don't care that they spout hate, it doesn't give us the excuse to spout it back. We are suppsoed to be better people then that, remember? And i am sorry, but a lot of the jews there really do want peace with the palestinians and arabs, how many palestinians do you know that really do want peace with the Israelis, and not just in the sense we want them to give us a piece of land and our freedom so that later on we can get the rest of the land back, but actual peace? And if you can name some, do you honestly believe that they constitute the view held by the majority of palestinians? You know it isn't! You know it!
And it's not just the palestinians that i am talking about here Twosret, altough unfortunately they are the ones -yet again- doing crazy shit and making us arabs look bad all over the world. I am talking about all arabs and muslims. The average Mohamed who comes from a middle class family that lives in cairo/jeddah/Morocco/ or wherever else in the arab world.They believe that shit. They believe in the american/zionist conspiracy, that all the jews should be killed, that from alamat yom el kiama the muslims will rise up and kill all the jews and for some reason they want yom el kiama to start as soon as possible. They are the ones who go out in anti-US demonstrations to burn american and israeli flags, believe jews committed 9/11, admire Osama bin fuckin Laden and think Saddam Hussein is a great arab leader, because that's what they hear 24/7 in their media and in their mosques. Well i am sorry, i am sick of this bullshit.
Words must mean something Twosret, and all those people do is talk about the zionist conspiracy, and how we there is a war waged by america against islam and arabs and how we must fight back. To them i say: Ok, fine, you want a war? You really want a war? Carefull what you wish for, cause you might just get it. And the kind of war they will fight won't be on the ground, it will carpet bombing and nukes, and you know we can't fight that and we probably won't survive it. Is that what you really want?
Sigh
As i said before, we are either for war or we are for peace. We can't go around crying that they are prejduiced against us while we burn their flags and do chants of support to the person who killed 3000 of their people. If we are peacefull people then we should stop and decry the kind of racist hateful rhetoric that people like this sheikh spout and the majority of the arab population parrots. If not, we should just let people like him become our public face and wait for the proverbial shit to hit the fan. Again, the choice is our.
SM,
You are re-writing your post all over again. I asked you something very simple...and yet you fail to answer.
For every action there is a reaction. You focus on the reaction so much that you seem blind to the cause of this conflict.
You are unable and not fit to see the sufferings of Palestinians facing Israeli aggression. You need to get educated and read more about the side that you falsely claim that you care about (The Palestinians) because they represent you, I have good news for you SM they don't represent you and have nothing to do with you or your line of thoughts you are so different.
Unlike the other poster that thinks that you will bring peace to the middle east. I think your post will bring Israel prosperity and make the Palestinians the watch dog for the Israeli Invaders and their settlements over the Palestinian lands.
Waiting for those wonderful views of yours on the arab front.
Two - you hit the nail on the head.
For every action, there should be an opposite and equal reaction.
Ekhtalafa el 3olama2 - is the reaction 'equal'? That's not the point. The point is that Sam thinks this is the 'action' - you think this is the 'reaction.'
Are we going to sit here and discuss which came first: the chicken or the egg?
Assuming SM is a biased in his views overall (which I sometimes think he is) - the fact of the matter is, I (and Sam, and you probably) don't want these people representing us. It has nothing to do with what Zionism and pro-Israeli agendas do to us in return. It's pretty obvious that current 'resistance' is futile - it's creating a dichotomy and general state of apathy in the Arab world (most people don't give a shit outside the ahwa where the exchange a few empty slogans), it is generating more enemies to both Islam and the Palestinian problem and it is generally getting us nowhere.
Political astuteness would dictate that we change tactic. We can't just keep fighting the same fight when we know we'll lose it.
Of course, neither SM nor I, nor anyone else here (except a select few) can understand the plight of the Palestinians. For us to understand, and for the millions of Arabs who don't understand, the Palestinian cause needs a make-over. You say the word 'Palestine' to an Arab (or a foreigner) and the first image that comes to mind is of a militant clad in black. That has to change if social movement outside the mosque (i.e. outside the realm of radical, conservative Islam) is to have a voice.
I have always felt so strongly for the Palestinian people and their cause but when I hear this stuff about "provoked nazism" I want to be sick. Many Germans are on the side of Palestine, but they cannot tolerate such statements.
Sandmonkey: you said "nor do i care about what another hatemonger might be preaching"
The Israeli press if free and open and there is not the hatemongering going on like in the Arab world.
Just pleasse if anyone has a local synagogue next to them just go inside and hear the difference. In the Synagogue you will hear a sermon about ethics and something motivational to inspire you. In a mosque often likely to hear hate speech. The difference is astounding.
I don't know if you're interested, but you could surely get a polished version of this piece published.
excellent post, sandmonkey. i don't like hearing Israelis saying racist shit towards Palestinians, but it pisses me off even more when my own people preach this hateful bile on TV.
as for a jihad against these fascist sheiks, oh, i'm in. i declare a fatwa against bigotry!
It amazes me how many Muslims violate the Quran. Karen Armstrong (former nun of British citizenship) writes in her book ‘Islam: A Short History’:
The Quran insists strongly that “there shall be no coercion in matters of faith” and commands Muslims to respect the beliefs of Jews and Christians, whom the Quran calls ‘ahl al-kitab’, a phrase usually translated “People of the Book” but which is more accurately rendered “people of an earlier revelation:”
‘Do not argue with the followers of earlier revelation otherwise than in a most kindly manner – unless it be such of them as are bent on evil-doing – and say: “We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you; for our God and your God is one and the same, and it is unto Him that we [all] surrender ourselves.”’
peace, understanding/hate, war
Well, one thing we can understand is that their hate will bring war and then there will be peace.
Maybe people should take note who these extremists hate - Britain, the US, the jews......there is a reason for this - the extremists know who we are, even if most of us do not. Sorry, for the cryptic message.
- oops, last anonymous was me.
Joanne
You know what amazes me the most SM? That the Quran has a very distinct Surra on what Muslims should say to athiests (let alone people of the book):
"Kol ya ayoha al Kaferoon..."
VERY rough translation to the non-Arabs:
In the name of God, most gracious, most merciful.
"Say, ye non believers. I do not worship what you worship. And ye do not worship what I worship. And I do not worship what you worship. And ye do not worship what I worship. To you your religion, and to me my own."
Why the repetition? The two repeated references to the fact the Muslims worships something different to the athiest reads in two different ways in Arabic, but cannot be translated. It is a form of re-enforcement.
Now, this is a Surra that kids are taught in schools. And yet, no one seems to remember it. Or is my understanding of its meaning flawed?
there are two overarching concepts that must be adopted within Palestine before peace can be established.
Sandmonkey pointed out both:
1) The existance of Israel must be accepted over all and cries for its destruction must cease.
2) Peace must be more than about land. It is a mind set to accepting the other has a right to not only exist, but to be secure in their ability to grow and prosper.
The existance of Palestine as a state is, for all intents and purposes, assured. The problem is what condition it exists in.
As a small state bordered by Jordan, Syria, Israel and Egypt with ver limited ports of entry by the sea, the existance and prosperity of Palestine necessarily dictates relationships, financial and security with these entities.
But, before it can exist, Palestine must have a universal goal that is not predicated on the destruction of another state. This is tantamount to calling for their own destruction before they even really exist themselves.
The founding of a state is on it's internal principles. It must, by necessity, be able to transmit those principles to the people. Palestine is looking to be a democratic state. Such a state must be founded on first, the rights of it's citizens, guaranteeing their freedoms and their prosperity.
Unfortunately, these principles have yet to be fully adopted within the Palestinian state. Not for want of trying by certain members, but because they have yet as to be adopted as the core principles by all entities within the state.
Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah do not share these principles and have as yet to be rejected or controlled by the central power. The central power will not adopt these core principles because Hamas and Hezbollah and a number of groups such as this still enjoy quite a bit of support from the populace in Palestine. Mainly because the central power of the state has been unable to provide or supply the things that it, as the power of the state, should be able to supply.
The central power is still trying to gain support from its constituence and thus, it cannot go far from the mainstream of ideas, as unfortunately represented by this sheikh or these other groups, or they will lose even the modicum of support from its populace.
I have often thought that the seeming "two faced" commentary by Abbas and others was one for their people and one for the outside world, but I am not so sure these days and believe that the messages are for the two bases of constituence that must reside in Palestine.
The only way that the central government will gain control is to supply the things like security, education, welfare, healthcare, business opportunities and interstate commerce. It must be able to deliver on these concepts to be considered legitimate and the principle guide for the state of Palestine.
I have as yet seen these concepts come to fruition, thus Abbas and those elected slowly see their ability to control the state erode.
Without a doubt, the continued attacks on Israel during the ceasefire is an obvious indicator that the state's goals are not shared by all and they will continue to struggle to obtain them.
In many respects, while not denying that Israel has other motives for the demand, the demand to crack down on these cells is not simply for Israel's benefit. The central government must assert its power as the central power. Without this control, they also lack legitimacy in real negotiations with Israel because a state negotiating for peace and land must be able to insure that peace completely.
This is where the breakdown occurs.
(sorry for the long winded post).
Thus, as I've pointed out before, Israel, and more specifically Sharon, can continue to unilaterally withdraw and make decisions on how and where this is to be done because they literally have no partner that is capable of working at their level to provide it.
Okay, i'll stop now, but I've been thinking about this for sometime, as Twosret knows. ;)
I'll post more at my site.
DNA said what I've said before:
It's obvious that the tactics that have been used in the past and continue to be used does not gain and will not gain what the Palestinians desire. A change in tactics and ideas would be helpful.
From this perspective, it seems there needs to be more than a top down change, since such a change would only produce immediate rejection and empower organizations like hamas and hezbollah. This is also a grass roots change.
Part of which is controlled by education and media. These are top down structures, but they can be changed by the people demanding to have education that focuses on preparing their children for a new and open world where they can prosper.
Having only seen some books from these schools and not been inside one, it does seem that the books are poorly directed towards this idea and spends much more time teaching or re-enforcing ideas of hate (when math books use things like "If you have three jews and two jews die how many do you have" as word problems, that is a major malfunction.
What happened to apples and oranges?
Twosret,
Will you please start a blog?
What concerns me is as an american I have to search to find this kind of news. Our media is bending over backwards to allow the muslims a fair shake in the eyes of americans but I wonder when I read these articles hidden under rocks on the internet how can we ever find peace with people who want to see us destroyed and wish to rule the world.America is accused of being facist? America,no matter how we stumble will ever resemble the country radical Islam protrays.
Unless thry are idiots, Americans learn early that ethnic backgrounds are not the measure of a person. Go to any American Elementary school playground and look and you will see more diversity then anywhere else in the world. We got 'em all.
And it doesn't matter. When they choose sides for the kickball games, race, religion, color or creed doesnt enter into it.
Now this isn't utopia, we have our share of the aforementioned idiots, just as everyone does.
What this does, is it gives the typical American an early grounding in the relative worth of all humans. On a subconscious level. So Americans know in their hearts that there is a place for everyone at the table.
It is our sacred duty to help the Arabs find their place, not to kill them just because they kill us. Especially the Arabs that live in Israel and call themselves Palestianians.
tworet, your answer from a famous man of peace;
"You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. this is God's own truth." - Dr. Martin Luther King.
In the Marine Corps of old the cure for rasicm was to bind the racists together. Unsophisticated and brutal, but effective. It doesn't appear to work on a national level. Some things just don't scale up. That is why insects the size of horses don't exist.
Meanwhile, the Israelis would like nothing better then peacefull co-existance with the Arabs. The first step there is for the arabs to stop their murderous assault on Israel. They also need to stop the non-murderous assault. The only requirement for peace in the ME is the acceptance of Israel's right to exist. That shows no sign of happening. What the Arabs are to weak to acomplish militarly, they are trying to acomplish politicaly. They need to stop trying....Period...
Sod off Swampy
This IS one of your very best posts!
I have long recognized the suffering of the Palestinians. I guess as an American, I have been forced to see that the world is full of it. Aids is so much worse. When I was a child, starvation in China and India was worse. Then there was also the killing fields in Cambodia. People living in Soviet gulags.
Pain...overwhelming, pain is not unique to Palestinians. Americans...much as some like to think...are not magicians.
The last post was me....'thinker'.
Hey Sandmonkey, this is your best one yet. You've got us talking, Arabs and Westerners, about what really matters. Just what Louise ordered here and in my comments on this blog.
Just how stupid do you savages think we infidels are? We can read the Quran. We can read the hadiths. We can see the Muslim demonstrators ranting "Death to America" in several different countries every day. We can hear the incessant calls for jihad. We know of the daily slaughter of peaceful people for the crime of offending Islam by, inter alia, daring to adhere to another faith.
Islam has called for jihad and death for 1400 years. It begins to look as though the primitive blood lust of the Muslim savages will soon be sated by the total destruction of their death cult.
The civilized world has had more than enough of you inbred fanatics. Soon Islam will attain its rightful place on the ash heap of history.
DEATH TO ISLAM!
Great post!
Sheik.. none other than a spawn of Hitler is what it seems. And to be let on camera to announce his hateful, unrealistic words is an insult to education. I'm American and have no predjudice what so ever against any country, even the one we happen to be at war with, but that shows stupidity of politics and society by Palastan. And one thing I do disagree with about your post is the way you talk about 'Palastanians' killing themselves and others in the country. It is terrorists. They should be seperate and not even have the right to be called by something other than an uneducated, brainwashed, terrorist who gives a bad name to a helpless country. But good post. It definitely made for a good read.
SM,
Again I will have to ruin an online Sandmonkey party a la American right wing/Israeli style :)
Let us start by the Palestinian T.V. history lesson:-
Let us start by some Palestinian TV history
“In October 2000, Israeli forces attacked transmission towers and other technical facilities used by the Voice of Palestine in Ramallah. A month later, in November 2000, Israeli helicopters bombed the offices of Palestine TV in Gaza.
On December 13, 2001, Israeli forces destroyed a VOP broadcasting building in Ramallah. Israeli missiles hit the building's main transmitter, knocking the station off the air. Later, bulldozers flattened the building. Israeli soldiers also detonated explosives that toppled a 90-foot radio and television tower and destroyed the station's transmitter, which was also used by Palestine TV
January 19, 2002, New York-The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) condemns in the strongest terms Israel's destruction today of the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation building in the West Bank city of Ramallah.
Early this morning, Israeli forces entered the five-story building, which houses administrative offices and broadcasting facilities for the Palestinian National Authority's Voice of Palestine (VOP) radio station as well as studios for the official Palestine Television. The forces confiscated equipment and later detonated explosives, setting the building on fire and causing half of it to collapse, according to international press reports.”
The weapons are made in USA and the Israelis are the main cause of poverty, humilation etc... very fertile soil for radicals who have money to take over any left over rubbles and build hate, anger messages.
Now back to the main topic
SM said “why would they ever chose to be on the side of the palestinians, arabs or muslims?”
Way too many people in one basket. America’s best interest is for Israel to survive, they are not friends for nothing my dear SM they are friends to maintain power and Israel doesn’t mind being the bitch why not? Israelis will get a country, land for free, they get to gather the scattered Jews in the promise land, build another Hitler wall a la German style and on top of it billions of dollars. What a great deal!!
Throughout the history America never sided with the Palestinians it sided with Israel you remember those wars, 1958, 1967 and 1973. What are you talking about SM? Are you day dreaming?
On the other hand, the king of Saudi Arabia and Palestinians can’t fit in one basket (not because the king of Saudi is too fat of course) SM I thought you are smarter than this. Mr. Bush kiss the King of Saudi Arabia and hold hands with the fascists, Wahabi, Salafist that doesn’t allow women to drive or vote or even be humans America’s best interest at this point and time to befriends with the Saudis today the same way Americans were friends with Bin Laden back in the Afghani Russian war.
SM said “i would be wondering why my leaders would be negotiating with the palestinians at all, instead of just killing those who want me dead first? “
So you actually think that the Israelis are negotiating anything with the Palestinians? Let us see how many Palestinians died since 1917 and see who killed whom.
As you can see I can reply to every word you posted but I will save myself and your readers time and post some links on different topics.
On some history and the wall Issue you can read this
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=2112
On the legal issue you can read this
http://www.usatoday.com/community/chat/2002-05-02-buttu.htm
On the art issue you can read this
http://www.liberationgraphics.com/ppp/index.html
On the UN resolutions you can read this
http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html
End of Hail Sandmonkey party LOL
Jeremy,
Would you partner with me on one blog?
:)
Matt, Palastan:)
America, Fuck Yeah!
Baseball, Fuck Yeah!...
DNA,
I actually agree with SM on the first part of his post. I mean the Sheikh is insane and crazy. I did post before about the one state solution or at least two states and Jerusalem under international supervision.
SM have a very limited view of the Palestinian people and their situation, he speaks about them as equal partners with the Israelis. When in reality those people are living a humanitarian crisis. The 1948 aggression left no infrastructure for the Palestinians.
The American media is spouting the same hate, biased, radical thoughts about Arabs and Palestinians by masking the truth about what is really happening in the West Bank and Ramallah. The American media is making sure to report every stupid poor kid in Palestine and ignore Palestinian peaceful intellectuals who are struggling to get one interview to get their voice heard.
When SM or others suggest a peaceful demonstration by Palestinians do they even look at a map? do they know how many checkpoints are in the remaining 28% of the Palestinian lands?
Here is a good site that shows you some real daily life struggle
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/checkpoints.html
I don't think that the Palestinians have an option to change politics because there is a main road blockage to peace which is occupation.
I say this to Israel and America:-
Acknowledge the Palestinian state, Israel to give up half the land you occupied, give the Palestinians their freedom, stop spouting hate and encouraging zionism, stop building the hitler wall, let the real people live and get education and the basic needs of life, show respect to the Palestinian authorities only then you will find peace.
This is my humble Egyptian Christian opinion.
It amazes me how everyone thinks this is SM's moment of valour - that this is his 'best post yet.' No disrespect, but SM isn't Palestinian and isn't Israeli, and this blog is supposed to be about Egypt, and yet, it is his 'best post yet'? Dunno. Maybe it is.
Some of the people commenting on here are very much right-wing conservatives, and the chances of them seeing our Arab/Palestinian point of view are pretty slim if non-existent, Twosret. Sometimes, it's easier to not bother. If this is SM's opinion, he's entitled to it, and if these are the kinds of comments he finds more congruent with his own opinions, it's his call.
I'm personally not going to bother at this point.
As for you, Two - your breath is longer than mine :)
Twosret,
"The 1948 aggression left no infrastructure for the Palestinians."
Ah yes?! The founding of the State of Israel was "the aggression" and the invading Arab armies werde just defending the Palestinians? If so, why was no Palestinian state founded when Gaza was under Egyptian administration and the Westjordanland was annexed to Transjordan, then chaning its name to Jordan? Why did the PLO 1964 explicity renounce these lands?
In your world view every Israeli action is "the aggression" and every Arab action is "just defense".
Well, this sort of mindset does not get people very far. The only way to change the world is by changing yourselves. However, with a mind set on blaming "the other" you never even advance to realize where it might be a good idea to change yourselves.
Sorry to disappoint your expectations: I do not hate you and I am Israeli. I do pity you and yes, there is a small measure of contempt in this pity. I also fear you and people like you. If you personally are not capable to blow up myself and my kids you are the first to excuse such despicable terrorist and thus help create an environment encouraging terrorism.
Get a life!
DNA - chill. It is not about you and Twosret against the world. There are a lot of people here who support Palestine (and I am one of them!) but do not support this wack ass preacher. Don't stop trying, don't stop debating. SM's blog can be about whatever he wants it to be. How sad if he has to stick to "all things Egyptian".
Twosret, I am very skeptical that you will be hearing the good news posts, SM has been very explicit about what he thinks. I echo Jeremy , pls get a BLOG :)
Anon - you managed to wrangle me back in :D
If you've read my earlier comments, I supported SM's arguments that this wasn't necessarily the place or time to be talking about Israel's aggression against Palestine. I vehemently condemn the crap this so-called, self-appointed religious sh*t says, and I feel pretty strongly against anyone like him.
When I said I'd resign the conversation, it wasn't because I felt the 'world was against me' (don't know who gave you that impression). All I said was that sometimes, it's not worth debating certain points. That is my own opinion, and I feel that in this particular case (i.e. Palestine vs. Israel), I see no point in discussing it further. SM is, of course, entitled to blog about whatever he pleases. All I expressed was surprise that this current post - which started off point out the hypocrisy of these said sheikhs - has been applauded as the best post he's ever written. I find that odd considering that there are plenty of earlier posts by SM about Egypt that are, in my opinion, much better than this.
DNA:
i think this is sm's best post because it really strikes a nerve (which might have nothing to do with sandmonkey per se, but more with the semrmon's rhetoric). and it strikes a nerve when everyone is trying to "patch up" representations of islam and israeli/palestinian relations, holding our breath for the gaza pullout, and then comes along this sheik to spew all that garbage on palestinian authority t.v.
and maybe here in egypt we've been following the egyptian elections/referendum debacle and have been thinking about *change* (at least i have) and so it comes as disgusting reminder to hear that muslims are defending nazism on public television.
I do agree with you that moderate Muslims must put and end to this perverted 'representation.' And I do agree that, possibly, most people found this post compelling because of that fact that it brings up the Palestinian-Israeli question. Some on the Arab side will argue that it is the root of all evil - the question that is - but I would like to think that before we can hope to solve it (whoever is to blame), we need to fix up our own house a little, if not a lot. That's why I might not put as much importance on this particular post as some people have done.
That doesn't mean it's not a topic worthy of discussion.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The going gets tough...
You guys make me smile, begad. In a good way ya3ni.
You know, there is a reason why I didn’t reply to the comments posted yesterday or why I havn’t blogged today at all: I am sick as a dog. I have been sick for 4 days now with the shittiest cold ever, and it keeps getting worse and now I have a slight fever and a headache. The plan was for me to lay low today and not respond while munching on big loads of advil cold and sinus, but Twosret’s comments have reached such a degree that it forced me to come over here and write a response to her comments. So, Twosret, baby, feel special. Ok? And don’t get mad at me personally, I am just ruining the Hail Twosret party over here. It’s only fair, don’tcha think?
Now, to begin responding, I have to say that I was rather not surprised at the direction Twosret has taken this conversation, because she always repeats the words “Palestinian” and “suffering” every time she doesn’t want to respond to something I said, but we will get to that in a minute. I also have to say that while the other comments she posted later on have some points I am going to address, the first one she left after my response makes no sense at all, which probably means she didn’t read it. Let me elaborate. Or rather, just read what I am writing next.
“You are re-writing your post all over again. I asked you something very simple...and yet you fail to answer.”
To that I will cut and paste my response to her so you can see what I am talking about:
“To answer your question, i would have to be totally honest and blunt with you: You ask why i don't post what the zionist preach to give a fair view, and my answer is that i don't see how it is at all relevant to the issue i am discussing here, nor do i care about what another hatemonger might be preaching. They are not my problem, simply because they are not the one representing me and my people; people like that Sheikh are.They are the ones running their mouth with this kind of irresponsible hatefull rhetoric that you know leads nowhere positive. They are the ones that allow our so called enemies to point fingers at us and say " look what the arab barbarians are saying". And unfortunately, they are the ones that dominate the thoughts of the majority of the arab and muslim youth because moderate arabs and muslims continue like cowards to keep their mouths shut. So yeah, i am gonna talk about him and people like him and denounce them every goddamn chance i get, because most people just make excuses for them, or like you, claim that it is not fair to put them on full blast, because there are jews and americans do it too, like that makes it any better or excuses it.”
How did that fail to answer your question, I have no idea. But whatever. Moving on.
“For every action there is a reaction. You focus on the reaction so much that you seem blind to the cause of this conflict.”
Yes, I focus on the reaction more then the cause of the conflict, and there are reasons for that. A selfish reason would be that the reaction affects me, and affects the lives of every other Arab and muslim who is not a Palestinian, but that’s not the real reason why I focus on the reaction. The real reason is that the cause of the conflict is used as an excuse to do , justify and apologize for some pretty inexcusable shit, like convincing 16 year olds to blow themselves up or inciting hatred and acts of terrorism against Israelis and Americans who the majority of wouldn’t want to see the Palestinians suffer or get killed. Or even better, it incites the weirdest sense of hypocrisy amongst our (the Arab and muslim) people: We decry the Zionist hatemongers yet we are ok with this guy on TV, because the palestinains sufferd. We don’t like palestinains getting shot at or killed, yet when they blow themselves up and kill Israelis, it’s ok, because they started it. Look, hate and murder are either wrong or not. The moment you try to justify it or excuse it then you are no different then those you condemn.
”You are unable and not fit to see the sufferings of Palestinians facing Israeli aggression.”
Twosret, I grew up in Egypt, what are u talking about? There is not a single day that our newspapers didn’t have gory pictures of dead Palestinian victims of Israeli aggression, while calling those who committed similar acts of aggression against Israelis “Martyrs” and only reporting on it verbally, so we don’t get to see the pictures of Israeli or jewish victims. I know all about the suffering of the poor Palestinians under the hands of the evil Israelis. Trust me. But maybe you are right, I might be unable or unfit to see it, because I am not Palestinian and I never suffered like they did. But what makes you such an expert on it anyway? By the same token you are unable and unfit to see it. Hell, probably most of us are not fit to see it as Hellme said, but what does that have to do with anything? Are you saying that this suffering excuses what the palestinains and the Islamic terrorists are doing? Are you saying that it makes it ok? I understand what you are saying kiddo, that we should understand that there is pain behind those acts of terrorism, that they are not caused by the sheer lunacy of their perpetrators. But explain that to a single innocent victim of a terrorist act and then try to make them understand. You probably would be surprised about how many of them wouldn’t give a damn about the cause or the explanation.
“they represent you, I have good news for you SM they don't represent you and have nothing to do with you or your line of thoughts you are so different.”
But they do represent me ya Twosret, whether I like it or not. They look like me, they have similar names to mine. They are arabs, they are muslim, and they do some messed up shit in the name of islam. You think anyone besides us would care to make the distinction between the arabs who are Palestinian and non-palestinian? Or even better, would you like such a distinction to take place? I mean, it would make my life easier, but I don’t think it would be fair. And you are right, I am different, and I am glad to be. I used to think like you at some point Twosret, but from my own studies and experiences, I know better now. But that’s my own opinion, and we are not gonna get into that discussion. Anyway..
”Unlike the other poster that thinks that you will bring peace to the middle east. I think your post will bring Israel prosperity and make the Palestinians the watch dog for the Israeli Invaders and their settlements over the Palestinian lands.”
Ok, this is the part where I believe you went a little cooko. My post will bring Israel prosperity? Begad? WTF is that? At least what I am calling for is the end of extremism, hate speech and peace. As someone here said: in order for peace to happen, it has to be more then just about land and that is all you keep talking about. Whatever. Moving on.
”Again I will have to ruin an online Sandmonkey party a la American right wing/Israeli style :)”
Hey, I am used to it by now babe. It’s what you live for.
”The weapons are made in USA and the Israelis are the main cause of poverty, humiliation etc... very fertile soil for radicals who have money to take over any left over rubbles and build hate, anger messages.”
So the fact that the weapons are made in the states makes it ok for them to hate America? What if some of them are made in France or the UK or anywhere else? Does that make them accomplices by default?
“Way too many people in one basket. America’s best interest is for Israel to survive, they are not friends for nothing my dear SM they are friends to maintain power and Israel doesn’t mind being the bitch why not? Israelis will get a country, land for free, they get to gather the scattered Jews in the promise land, build another Hitler wall a la German style and on top of it billions of dollars. What a great deal!!”
Did you just cite the American Zionist conspiracy as the basis for your argument? And Hitler Wall? When did Hitler ever build a wall? What are you talking about?
”Throughout the history America never sided with the Palestinians it sided with Israel you remember those wars, 1958, 1967 and 1973. What are you talking about SM? Are you day dreaming?”
I remember the US sponsoring the two state solution in 1948. I remember the US ordering the cease fire in 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars. I remember the US sponsored camp David peace talks in the 70’s when they could’ve still had the 1948 deal but Arafat said all the land or nothing at all. I remember George H bush threatening to cut aid and impose sanctions on Israel if they don’t stop building settlement. I remember 3 different peace treaties under president Clinton alone, with the last one giving Arafat 99% of the 1967 borders, including eastern Jerusalem which he also refused. I also remember Bush being the First US president to ever call for a two state solution in public. Hmm, but u might be right. I must’ve been daydreaming when that happened.
“On the other hand, the king of Saudi Arabia and Palestinians can’t fit in one basket”
But the wahhabis do and they make up a lot of the Saudi population. Plus, Honor killing and crazy shit like that. Hmm, not to mention that they Saudis fun terrorism. Yeah, u r right, they have nothing in common. My bad.
“So you actually think that the Israelis are negotiating anything with the Palestinians? Let us see how many Palestinians died since 1917 and see who killed whom.”
So you actually believe that they don’t want to have peace there? That they have been doing nothing but wasting everyone’s time huh? And they killed Rabin for show then huh? Hmm. Ok. In that case, let’s kill them all then. I mean there is no peace., so there might as well be war, right? See where that argument goes Twosret? And I have a question for you. If they are really such murderers, why not just kill all the remaining Palestinians once and for all? Just carpet bomb the shit out of them. It would solve the problem, don’t you think? No one would do anything, because the US is on Israel’s side and it would just veto anyone sanctions against Israel and bomb any Arab country that would attack Israel and probably win too. Gee, that sounds incredibly feasible. Why don’t they just do that if they are after all only interested in killing Palestinians and not interested in peace? Hmmmm, I wonder. Anyway, now on to ur comment to DNA.
“SM have a very limited view of the Palestinian people and their situation, he speaks about them as equal partners with the Israelis. When in reality those people are living a humanitarian crisis. The 1948 aggression left no infrastructure for the Palestinians.”
Ok, but they have been getting massive amounts of aid for the past 20 years for such an infrastructure, right? And let’s be honest, all the money that Arafat took to rebuild that infrastructure didn’t go into building it. Instead he bought guns, weapons and military uniforms for his men with it. So I am guessing, to be fair, the blame for the lack of infrastructure can be shared on both parties, no?
“The American media is making sure to report every stupid poor kid in Palestine and ignore Palestinian peaceful intellectuals who are struggling to get one interview to get their voice heard.”
Ok, the blame the Jewish media argument, ok! Let me answer ur question: Maybe it’s because they know that those intellectuals have no actual sway in Palestinian society? Maybe it’s because those same intellectuals will go on American TV and blame all their problems on America? Or Maybe it’s because it’s hard to hear the intellectuals talk about peace when the majority keeps chanting for war? Hmmm….
“When SM or others suggest a peaceful demonstration by Palestinians do they even look at a map?”
And yet they manage to have demonstrations with guns being held and fired in the air and flags being burned with no problem? That’s strange.
”I don't think that the Palestinians have an option to change politics because there is a main road blockage to peace which is occupation.”
Yes they do, and the first way to do it is to ostracize Hamas. Give up the extremists and stop the attacks and the Israelis will have no one to point or excuse at to justify any lack of negotiations on their part. Or is that an unrealistic or unreasonable request?
“I say this to Israel and America: Acknowledge the Palestinian state, Israel to give up half the land you occupied, give the Palestinians their freedom, stop spouting hate and encouraging zionism, stop building the hitler wall, let the real people live and get education and the basic needs of life, show respect to the Palestinian authorities only then you will find peace.”
Ok, again with the Hitler wall thing, but let’s ignore it for a minute and talk about your solution for a minute, ok? The acknowledgment of the Palestinian state is easy, and so is the spouting hate demand and the letting people live part. All that can be done any minute. The rest is impossible. They can’t give up half of the land they occupied, because now they have built houses and cities and people have been living there for the past half century, where are they supposed to go? And how are u supposed to kick them out? Do you think any of them would agree to that solution? Some of those people are 3rd generation israelis by now, they have as much of a claim to this land as the Palestinians do and some of them even paid money for them. Should they get kicked out and become homeless? Is that your solution? How is that any different from what the Israelis did? Isn’t that the same injustice that was exacted on the Palestinians? You wanna right a wrong with another wrong? Is that your so called solution? Don’t you think that it’s maybe unrealistic at this point? Anyway, moving on.
Next comes the wall, well, if they gave them half of the land then there would be no wall now would there? But assuming that it would exist, do u know why this wall was erected? It was a desperate measure to stop suicide bombings inside of Israel, and I am sad to say that it worked. Ever since they put it up there hasn’t been one suicide bombing inside Israel. That’s what it took to stop the attacks and u want them to tear it down? Why would they do something as stupid as that? But anyway, I repeat, if they get half of the land, the wall wouldn’t matter or be an issue, so why bring it up?
And finally, the respect of the PA. Hmm. That’s a tough one, cause they haven’t so far earned it or deserved it. They can’t stop the attacks, they can’t control Hamas and they continue teaching Jewish hate in their schools and speeches. Hell, the reason why this post was written in the first place was because of a Friday sermon on their TV channel and you want them to get respect from the Israelis? Tab leih? Explain that one to me!
Look ya Twosret, this post was about the promotion of hate culture to begin with, it just so happened that the sermon happened to be on PA TV and by a Palestinian. I wrote this post because I see the same shit being said over here in Egypt and all over the Arab world. Hell, the guy who killed Theo Van Goch said almost that same crap that this sheikh did on the note he stick with a knife on van goch’s body but worded it differently. This kind of stuff has to stop. This can’t be what muslims and arabs believe in. That’s what this post has been about. Naturally you went all jumpy the moment I placed any kind of blame or attack on a palestinain individual and turned this into “It’s ok because they have suffered and ISRAEL IS BAD” gripe session, which wasn’t what this is about.
Look, Hellme is right, we need a change of tactic. We need to give up on the stupid slogans and the hate filled sermons and the taking no responsibility for our own actions and failures and always excusing acts of terrorism and Hate. It needs to stop if we are to ever have a good future Two; if we ever were to live in peace.
That’s all that I am saying!
Highlander: Ba2a keddah? Mashy. tab wallahy i will write it just to prove you wrong!
Desertpig: Didn;t i make it apparent to you that you are not welcome here? Why did you come back? F*uck OFF!
dna: So your comment objecting that this is the best poost is because you think i have written some other posts thata re better then this one? Doesn't that, like, make you a fan of my writing, to the degree that you actually have favorites? Aww..Thanks man. That's so sweet.
Josie: couldn;t agree with you more.
Jeremy: dude, will u start that blog with Twosret? Please? She won't do it on her own.
I am a fan of your writing. I blow hot air out of my ears when I read it :D
"The 1948 aggression left no infrastructure for the Palestinians."
I do not believe there was very much infrastructure in Palestine period before 1948. What little industry there was, such as the Dead Sea Works, was built by Zionists.
I agree with you that Israel does some bad things in the Territories, but that doesn't mean that Israel is the end all of evil, and it certainly doesn't mean that Israel should be compared to the Third Reich.
Since 1967 Israel has built hundreds of schools in the territories. It is because of Israeli efforts that Palestinians have higher literary rates than Egyptians or Jordanians. Since 1967 Palestinians have been able to found seven universities (one more than Israel has). From 1967 to 2000 and Israeli and Palestinian economies integrated. Palestinians had a higher standard of living than Arabs in Syria, Jordan, or Egypt.
Yes, it's an occupation, but it's more of the most benign the world has ever seen.
I personally would like to see a binational state emerge (like Lebanon). The problem is Hamas, and the preacher SM wrote about. If Hamas could put every Israeli on a bus and blow that bus up they would. If they had a nuke they'd use it.
Sandmonkey,
"Instead he bought guns, weapons and military uniforms for his men with it."
Unfortunately Arafat and his people bought a lot of marble bathtubs too. Not to mention Parisian couture for the wife.
Itiail
Jeremy, yeah, you and Twosret make your own blog. Twos might have problems getting past the Zionist conspiracy making it too difficult to set one up.
Sam, I empathsize. Got some bourbon to wash down the advil?
Watch your mail for the latest in the visa saga.
SM
Love the blog. Your post regarding the "sermon" is spot on, as they say in the UK. Unfortunately, the response from fellow Middle Easterners is so fucking typical. I guess that's why American's can't relate. I hit Middle Easterner blogs daily and the feedback starting to come out from non Middle Easterners is becoming predictable. We are tired of the hypocrisy and the constant "we are victims" shit. Unless Middle Easterners do some hard looking at themselves and their societies, things will only become worse. I've always prayed for a drying up of the oil reserves in the Middle East if for nothing else but to force your part of the world to deal with the rest of us as human beings. A pipe dream I'm sure (no pun intended). By the way, I use the term Middle Easterners because I just don’t get the tribal dynamics which permeate your part of the planet. In this instance, ignorance is bliss. Anyway, your blog is cool and I do appreciate your sharing thoughts. Take care.
Theresa
One of the commenters above said : "Yes, it's an occupation, but it's more of the most benign the world has ever seen."
I am going to frame this sentence , the understatement of the century. An occupation is an occupation nothing else.
Sandmonkey: mashi ya 3azizi , I look forward to that positive post ;) also go back to bed and rest you don't have to answer anyone now .
Twosret,
You are such a brave woman who stands up for her thoughts despite the tremendous anti-arab sentiment in this forum. I admire every word you write. Your vision is clear, You are a great example of the educated arabs that will make peace based on equal rights.
Mary
Theresa,
You are full of shit yourself to think that we are in the middle east for Oil. Something is done wrong in our forgein policy somehow that caused this you idiot.
You can't blame it all on arabs. They hate us for a reason.
What a loser!
Mark
"An occupation is an occupation nothing else."
I mention the facts on education and economic growth to show you that the Palestinian problem was _not_ that Israel destroyed their infrastructure. I was trying to demonstrate that, on the contrary, in times of peace Israel has attempted to build up Palestinian infrastructure,
especially human capital.
Itiail
Let me mention this...
Do those of you who obsess about the suffering of the Palestinians, also worry about those people suffering under totalitarianism, of disease, the suffering of Christians in Saudi Arabia, etc.
Have you ever donated money when there was a hurricane in America?
For aids research? For Hindu children suffering from diseases?
If not...then its really NOT about suffering. Its about something else. What is it really?
thinker
Hey Mike
I meant that it is the tool they use to hold the rest of the world hostage to their stupid bullshit. If they didn't have the fucking oil, what would they use to make the West accommodate their outdated, intolerant, bigoted bullshit? Honey, dates, gold, ugly rugs? You have all the answers Mike, so tell me, what would they use as effectively as the fact that they sit on such large oil reserves to hold the West by the short hairs? Moron.
Theresa
hey thinker, it's "about" the fact that Palestinians got bull dozed off their land and are living under an occupation. No hidden agendas or ulterior motives here. If you want conspiracy why don't you go watch re-runs of the X files in your mother's basement.
It seems to me that people really aren't listening to/carefully reading each others' points of view. This isn't a shouting match nor is it an excuse for people to insult one another. Why can't we have a dialogue? If on a simple blog posting people can't respect each others' opinions (with the exception of desert pig, whose opinions don't warrant respect) I fail to see how anyone is optimistic about the future of American-Irsaeli-Arab relations. The idea is to come to a mutual understanding of each other's ideas. Let's try that.
Theresa, you forgot to mention the historical value of the Middle East. All the ancient sites and artifacts that make up part of the historical events of the world. It is the history and heritage of humankind. For me, that is the greatest asset that the Middle East possesses, not oil.
SM, excellent post, like always.
Kei-T
Great Post! Bravo you sexy beast !
Don't worry about those idiots. You know you're right :)
Dee
I am a homo. I did not want to admit it, but that is the cause of my anger.
-Desert Pig
Sandmonkey, Thank you for bringing up the sermon on the PA. I had read it before, but it is good to see that there really are Muslims who do not approve of this sort of hate speech and are willing to speak out publicly against it. It shows me that there MAY be hope for peace in the ME yet.
In 1948 weren't there just 600,000 or so persons of Arab descent living in Isreal? Wasn't it Egypt who declared war on Isreal at that time to run the Jews into the sea? Wasn't it Egypt who told all the Arabs to leave Isreal or be risk being killed while Egypt ran everyone into the sea? Wasn't it Egypt and Jordan etc. who refused to accept the Muslim "brother" refugees they created into the bosoms or their own Muslim countries? Wasn't it the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Husseini (godfather of Arafat the Egyptian) who went to Germany during WWII to align himself and his people with the Nazis? Wasn't this Nazi ideology spread throughout the whole ME after WWII by people like the Grand Mufti, Arafat the Egyptian and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood? Seems to me like these are the roots of the Palstinian problem that we are saddled with today. Islamic fascism is the problem now, instead of Naziism and it is spread far beyond Isreal. If the Islamic facists have come to see that victory can only be achieved when the whole world is ruled by them, and moderate Muslims do nothing to stop them, then there will be no choice but to declare war on Islam and many many people in many countries will have to suffer and die. The ball is really in your court and you for one have taken it up. I commend you on your courage in risking the ire of your brethern in doing so.
Excellent post, Sam. How ya doin' anyway?
Jan
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/printable.asp?ID=12855
Read about a reformed "Palestinian" here!
SM,
Hope you feel better. I will give you a break for a day or so :) and will reply later. Hitler=Sharon lol!
Ruth,
I can't believe your audicty and your victim role you display on your post. Have no fear my friend your tanks and soldiers are out there killing Palestinian children and mothers in the street on daily basis. I'm actually ready to puke reading you.
As for me I know many Israeli and Jewish friends that fears me not.
EgyptianSally,
You are very right about the shouting match. As you can see SM and I can disagree forever but we developed respect. I enjoy your site and couldn't stop laughing about the fridge/food post :)
Gatorbait, You are my little sweet Bin Laden Junior that likes to mess with me.
This is just a quick reminder to Ruth and people like her who claim that Israel is a peaceful state.
People need to look back and remember that Israelis have committed acts of Terrorism from day one.
Also a site with maps of Palestine before 1948, for those who claim that there was nothing before 1948.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Maps/
"After the state of Israel was established, the Lehi, displeased with what it considered the too pro-Arab views of the Swedish UN-appointed mediator for Palestine, assassinated him; on September 17, 1948, Count Folke Bernadotte-who, as a neutral diplomat in World War II, had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps-was shot and killed by Lehi assassins, along with French colonel Andre Serot, the senior UN military observer, whose wife's life had been saved by Bernadotte.
The Bernadotte assassination was so outrageous that the nascent government of David Ben-Gurion had little problem disbanding the Lehi (though none of the assassins were ever brought to justice). Yet, despite this history of terror, the Israeli Ministry of Defense underwrites museums commemorating the Stern Gang and the Irgun- which, under Menachem Begin, bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel in 1946, leaving 90 dead and 45 wounded (with 15 Jews among the casualties). Like Lehi, it wasn't until 1948 that the Irgun was forced out of existence, after its arms-transport ship, the Altalena, was blown up by the provisional Israeli government-a point analysts like Ibish say bears remembering. "
"There are streets named after the assassins of Moyne and Bernadotte. They are historical figures not disavowed by the rhetoric of the state of Israel, nor is there any reflection on the fact that two terrorist leaders later became distinguished leaders of the republic," Ibish says. "And now people are saying that Arafat must have his Altalena." Ibish adds that Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, "never moved against the Irgun and the Stern Gang until after the state was established and secured, which is definitely not true in the case of the Palestinian Authority. Essentially, the Israelis are asking the Palestinians to do something they themselves refused to do." ___
Twosret,
Very glad to see you on this blog.
I would like to share Dr.Doumani who taught me in Berkeley. His lectures are supported by A Jewish voice for peace. I can't say enough about this man and Edward Said who is a legendary Palestinian.
I suspect that some people who post here get their education from T.V. rather than historical books and reading arab-intellectuals.
What most of you forgot that there are moderate Jewish (mainly european) who are totally against Zionism and support Palestinians all the way as well.
http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/projects/ajvp/wp1.php
Bassim
I wish that the expulsion of 1948 could have been avoided, but I believe that if the Palestinian Arabs had gotten the military initiative in 1948 they would have been much worse to the Jews than the Jews were to them. It was a war of desperation.
Over the past fifty years, scores of groups have been made refugees for one reason or another. These people have lost homes, businesses, farms, etc. In every case, these refugee groups have eventually picked themselves up and ceased to be refugees. The Palestinians are the exception. Through the decision of Arab governments to make adjustment difficult (except Jordan), and the decision of the Palestinians themselves not to accept the finality of 1948, the Palestinians have made themselves the world's only permanent refugee group.
Does Israel carry out violence? Yes. Did Israel send out thousands of development workers in the 1950s and 1960s to Africa and East Asia to help them build their nations? Yes (predating the Peace Corps by a decade). Did Israelis take a land that was extremely poor and without any natural resources and turn it into a country with a top 20 standard of living? Yes. Did Israelis turn a land without a single university into a major center of science and innovation? Yes. Did Israel accept 500,000 refugees (equal to the pre-War Jewish population) give them homes and successfully integrate them into their society? Yes.
I ONLY ASK YOU TO SEE MORE THAN ONE SIDE TO ISRAEL. Because Israelis may have committed unlawful violent acts (like the Bernadette assassination) does not mean that Israel deserves the calumny that it receives.
And on the subject of Israeli violence . . . "We do not hate them because of what they do to us, we hate them because of what they make us do to them." Golda Meir.
I made the above comment, Itiail
Re: Assassination
Assassination is the least immoral form of warfare. In assassination, the only person who dies is the person who is actually responsible for the decision which causes offense to the aggrieved group.
Compare assassination to conventional warfare. In conventional warfare the people dying are regular soldiers who have no (or little) choice in the matter of their fighting. Soldiers strive to kill other people who likewise have no choice in the matter.
Compare conventional warfare to terrorism. In terrorism the people who die have not a single way to protect themselves. They almost certainly have no say at all in the policy which offends the terrorist group.
"Just and Unjust Wars" by Michael Walzer has a fascinating discussion of this.
Itiail
Awesome thread!
No doubt that if SM ran Egypt there would be peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis because he would knock heads. Hopefully, in the next few years more people of the younger generations like SM will come into power and the dinosaurs like the Mullahs and Mubarak and the Saudi Princes will fade into the dustbin of history. Democracy once tasted can not be defeated!!
Itiail,
Thanks for your post. Here is my reply and I hope our next discussion will be more about the law, the reasons and the SOLUTION.
What would any nation do when facing invaders? Give them their land? You did make an assumption though saying that the Arabs will be worse you don’t know that for sure. This is kind of taunting the Arab image to play along with the savage look that the Israeli media have succeeded to portray to the world (no pun intended).
Itiail said “Over the past fifty years, scores of groups have been made refugees for one reason or another. These people have lost homes, businesses, farms, etc. In every case, these refugee groups have eventually picked themselves up and ceased to be refugees. The Palestinians are the exception. Through the decision of Arab governments to make adjustment difficult (except Jordan), and the decision of the Palestinians themselves not to accept the finality of 1948, the Palestinians have made themselves the world's only permanent refugee group.”
Let us look at some facts and numbers to see how would it be possible for the Palestinians to chose what you claim a refugee status rather than freedom and prosperity.
1) There are 400,000 settlers living illegally in occupied Palestinian territories
2) Since they year 2000 as per the Oslo agreement Israel never turned over Billions and Billions of Dollars to the Palestinians and using it to strengthen it is economy and building settlements (taxes money)
3)srael control the Palestinians working not only in Israel but also in their territories.
On the Palestinian side
- 70% of the population unemployed.
- 50% of the population living below the poverty line and that is defined as less than $2 a day.
- 2,000 people have been killed that is 1% of the Palestinian population.
- Malnutrition in children is now peaking at 30%. Highest like sub-Saharan Africa.
I have to agree about the Arab Gov. though that was a good point.
“Does Israel carry out violence? Yes. Did Israel send out thousands of development workers in the 1950s and 1960s to Africa and East Asia to help them build their nations? Yes (predating the Peace Corps by a decade). Did Israelis take a land that was extremely poor and without any natural resources and turn it into a country with a top 20 standard of living? Yes. Did Israelis turn a land without a single university into a major center of science and innovation? Yes. Did Israel accept 500,000 refugees (equal to the pre-War Jewish population) give them homes and successfully integrate them into their society? Yes.”
What good is Israel doing accepting Jewish refugees on a the occupied Palestinian land and making the same number of people refugees? Israel is accepting it's own refugees is good for the world? Israel went as far as Africa to help when Israel caused a humanitarian crisis right next door and refuse to pay the Palestinian tax money back? Hmmm very interesting.
“I ONLY ASK YOU TO SEE MORE THAN ONE SIDE TO ISRAEL. Because Israelis may have committed unlawful violent acts (like the Bernadette assassination) does not mean that Israel deserves the calumny that it receives. “
The Bernadette assassination was only the start. Israel have never stopped their assassinations.If you don’t know them please let me know I will be more than happy to post some.
“And on the subject of Israeli violence . . . "We do not hate them because of what they do to us, we hate them because of what they make us do to them." Golda Meir.”
Golda Meir is very radical. When Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir infamously declared in 1969, "There are no Palestinians”. Martin Buber, Judah Magnes who was an idealist, a man way ahead of his time. People like the first president of Hebrew University, Hannah Arendt, who realized that there was going to be a clash if the aggressive settlement policies and the ignoring of the Arabs pressed ahead were thinking positively and forward to a solution.
David Ben-Gurion actually said, "There's no case in history where a people simply gives up and allows another people to take their territory over."
Amazingly enough Moshe Dayan made a famous remark. He said every Israeli town and village had a former Arab occupant. He was able to see it, and he said it.
Itiali,
"Unfortunately Arafat and his people bought a lot of marble bathtubs too. Not to mention Parisian couture for the wife."
Can you please identify to us in which part of the Ramallah compound that was bombed by Israeli tanks did Arafat have the marble bathtubs? His room didn't even have windows.
Please take us for a virtual tour of the Ramallah compound.
Do you know who is Suha Arafat before marrying Arafat? if had a clue you would have known that she was dressed in Parisian Couture long before she even met Arafat.
For pete's sake I dress in Parisian Haute Couture and I'm not even close to a wife of a Minister.
I am an American Jew. I have been to Israel, Jordan (Petra) and Turkey (Istanbul, Ankara, Capadoccia). I would love to see Egypt but friends are trying to convince me that this is not the right time to travel there. I happen to have nothing but respect and friendship in my heart for Muslins. Those I have met have been extraordinarily warm and hospitable. However, the virulent anti-Jewish and anti-American rhetoric that I encounter in the Arab press is extremely depressing to me.
Earlier in the evening I read the an article by Reem Al-Faisal, in Arab News (Saudi Arabia) entitled "Why Do Americans Hate Muslims?" After mulling it over, he concludes "I have to admit finally, after decades of relations with the US, that they have convinced us that we should feel something and that our feelings have been boiled down today to pure hate. And why not? What have we as a people seen from the US in the past half century but an absence of respect for Muslim life, culture or religion, contempt and disregard for our rights and finally murder and torture from Afghanistan to Iraq.
The US has further driven us to dislike America with its blind support for a colonialist power such as Israel, in fact the only one left in the region. Whenever we have tried in the past to help alleviate the plight of the Palestinians we only got vetoed by the US at the UN Security Council followed by the free flow of arms and money to kill our fellow compatriots from Palestine to Lebanon. And whenever we Arabs try to get arms to defend ourselves against one of the strongest armies in the world, which has never hesitated in using its destructive power with impunity against us, we are blocked by America from acquiring the means by which we could defend ourselves."
Your post tonight and the majority of the comments are a powerful healthy rational antidote to this kind of thinking. While Mr. Al-Faisal is not in the same league with the Muslin preacher on palestinian TV, the raw emotions and the tendency to mindlessly blame others is similar.
SM, it would please me very much to see your blog reprinted on the op-ed page of the New York Times. But more exciting and inspiring would be to see it reprinted in the pages of Al-Ahram or Al-Jazeera.
We can only make conjectures about what would have happened if the Arab armies and Palestinian groups had gained the initiative in 1948. Therefore, I will leave this matter aside. However, I reject that bit about the “Israeli media.” The Israeli media only broadcast in Israel, by definition they cannot try to persuade the “world” of anything. Whatever the Israeli media says, it’s also a fact that in many wars Arab armies have not conducted themselves with consideration for civilians.
“There's no case in history where a people simply gives up and allows another people to take their territory over."
I agree with what you said about Judah Magnes and Martin Buber. If I had lived back then I would have supported them. However, in the 1920s and 1930s when liberal Jewish Palestinians tried to reach out to Muslim and Christian Palestinians to try to create that mosaic/binational state there was no one on the other side. Their group – Brit Shalom – folded in 1933. The story is retold in _One Palestine, Complete_ by Tom Segev.
On refugees . . . .
It is not Israel’s doing that Palestinians are still refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. The Palestinians themselves and those governments have made a conscious decision preserve the squalor. They would rather have the Palestinians poor and forlorn so they can show the world “See What the Jews Did!”
Absorbing those refugees would not have been impossible. Culturally, differences between Palestinians and those other Arab peoples are slight. Israel, with no more in the way of resources, absorbed a much greater number, and people who were more culturally different.
On the subject of Palestinians within the Territories. You only cite statistics from the 2000-2004 period.
“By any standards, the material prosperity of the West Bank Palestinians increased enormously under Israeli domination, particularly from 1967 to 1973 when the Israeli economy experienced a boom. Agricultural production rose, as did rural income. However, the latter was not directly tied to the former: increased prosperity through agriculture alone redounded again to a relatively few families. (it isn’t Israel’s fault if Palestinian landownership is feudal) The tremendous increase in income per se, from a per-capita rural revenue of $133 in 1966 to $930 in 1975, was principally the product of West Bank labor working in Israel. . . . From the early 1970s, total employment among the West Bank labor force averaged 98 percent. (Charles D. Smith, Palestine and the Arab Israeli Conflict, 245)
The book I just quoted from is anti-Israel, IMO (as you can tell by the “domination” use). The facts are accurate.
There were no roadblocks in the West Bank or Gaza prior to 1994. In times of peace Palestinians could go where they wanted. They could go to Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, the country. Before the bombs it was a better time for everyone.
Thus, it is not true that Israel has deliberately sought to impoverish the Palestinians, economically or in terms of culture (as the info I gave in a previous post about education attests).
Please ask yourself why things got so much worse for the Palestinians ~1993-1995 and 2000-2004. Did it not have something to do with Hamas trying to blow up Israelis on busses? At discos? At restaurants? Do you expect Israel to be happy that all those bombs are coming its way?
In the first “peace” cycle, 1993-1994, Hamas was very clear that it opposed the peace process, period. It was explicit that its bombings were intended to derail any talks.
I feel horrible that Palestinians in the Territories today live in such poverty. I hope that this peace lasts forever so that the Palestinians may rebuild and so that the Israeli-Palestinian economies can reintegrate. I hope that the Palestinians get to open and airport and seaport (if Hamas recognizes that a government has a monopoly on violence). Unfortunately though, I believe that Palestinian poverty will continue as long as their birthrate stays among the highest in the world. (a high birthrate hurts every Arab country)
“2) Since they year 2000 as per the Oslo agreement Israel never turned over Billions and Billions of Dollars to the Palestinians and using it to strengthen it is economy and building settlements (taxes money)
3)srael control the Palestinians working not only in Israel but also in their territories. “
Since 2000 Israel and the Palestinians have been at war. No government at war can be expected to give money to its enemy.
A solution? My solution is for Gaza to be reabsorbed by Egypt and for Israel and the West Bank to become a binational state (like Israel currently is within the green line) Syria, Lebanon and other Arab countries ought to give Palestinians citizenship.
Itiail
Twosret, Arafat's corruption is well known. Suha lives in luxury.
I'm not really going to comment on anything that's been said in this excellent discussion, because everything I would want to say has been said.
Except this: I've seen several commenst that the opinions of westerners that appeared here represented "right wing" views. That's not true at all. The opinions of westerners I've seen here are mainstream, or even left-leaning. If you guys think what's been said here is by Americnas and other westerners is right wing extremism, you need to think again :)
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