The Blowback
More than 4 months ago, I wondered what we-Egyptians- actually want from the US when it comes to the pressure they were exerting on Mubarak for democratic reforms. I unlike many of my peers, actually believed that the US is sincere about pushing for reform or democracy, but really couldn't do much without the egyptian public doing something about it. The egyptians scoffed at that, saying that the US let this farce of a presidential election happen, and lamented on how Ayman Nour, the US' darling, was now rotting in prison without any of them doing anything about it. They viewed it as further proof that the US' push for democracy was nothing but insincere theatrics and that the Americans won't really do anything about it. Now- all that passive criticisms bullshit coming from people who won't do anything themselves aside- it seems that the US has already taken some action against Egypt's regime after all, and decided to hit them where it hurts: the US free trade agreement, as Freedom For Egyptians reports. "An Egyptian delegation that was to visit Washington this month to discuss a free-trade agreement has been disinvited, and the agreement itself was put on hold. Thanks to Mr. Mubarak's autocratic backsliding -- including his crude persecution and imprisonment of his leading liberal opponent, Ayman Nour -- Egypt will continue to lag behind Jordan, Morocco and other modernizing Arab states that enjoy tariff-free access to U.S. markets. For Egypt's business community and the reformist technocrats in its cabinet, the message should be clear: Egypt won't join the global economic mainstream unless it abandons its corrupt dictatorship." Smart move, since Egypt really needs that Free Trade agreement with the US. If we lived in a society that values common sense, we would use that piece of news to critisize the government for their actions, which will hinder for years to come the always ailing Egyptian economy. But since this is Egypt where the opposition is retarded, knowing the anti-American leftist Egyptian opposition, they will probably criticize the US for their decision and cite it as an example of how the US wants to influence and rule Egypt and will probably be happy that the FTA is no longer a possibility. After all, an agreement that brings prosperity to egypt through closer relationship with the US must be evil, and we wouldn't want to seem as if we support the evil US now would we? Hmmm....
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 1/18/2006 12:19:00 PM
32 Comments:
"The egyptians scoffed at that, saying that the US let this farce of a presidential election happen"
Like the US approved of that. People are so stupid that they will really blame the West for everything. As long as Egyptians expect everything from the outside, they will continue to see the situation in their country deteriorate.
Did the French waited for the US to revolt?
Did the US waited for the French to revolt?
Did the Hungarians waited for the US to revolt?
Did the Russians waited for the US to revolt?
I guess not!
Sandy
Problem is, The US will always be damned if they do & damned if they dont.
EGyptians just like to sit & wallow in any rotten myre they are in. Now if the US doesnt do anything to pressure the Egyptian government for reforms, leaving it up to the people of egypt & the government to do it, they will be condemned for not doing enough.
If the US intervenes to push for reforms, the people still wont like it as it makes them US puppets & in the end will owe the americans something, & they dont want to feel any gratitude toward the Yanks, so they enjoy cursing them at ever possible event.
I am no chummy with the americans, but one has to be fair, egyptians dont want reforms, look at Ayman nour affair, he is disgusting & would mud wrestle his own mother if it meant closer to the presidency. He changes his opinions just to gather people around him , he is no politician & can never deliver anything or lead a country, just look at the way his party crumbled, want to see what will happen if he leads a ministry let alone a country?
Jokerman,
Do you have a blog or an e-mail?.
Nancy
Scorekeeper, do your really hate America so much as to wish Hillary on us? Please, we suffered through 8 years of Bubba, and now that we have just about cleaned up all the messes he left, you go put a jinx on things like that. I'm telling you, she wins, I holding you responsible:)
(Thong Firmly In Cheek)
tongue - thong: You know there are days when I wish I had not taken the training wheels off my keyboard.
I knew I was wong, but I expected better help from the spell checker. The really bad part is I can't claim English as my second language.
"Thong firmly in cheek" works pretty well too! You just need to add an 's' :D
On a more serious note, I've been wondering about this myself, since I first started reading Egyptian blogs last spring. I saw then (and now) a lot of criticism towards US policy. Some of it deserved, but a lot of it undeserved, in my opinion. I really wonder, what the aberage "guy on the streets" expects and/or wants from the US?
*)Complete political/economic disengagement?
(I put those together because I don't think they can be seperated)
*) Abandon Mubarak and support whatver opposition exists (no matter how repugnant to the US) in Egypt?
*) Support Mubarak, but encourage "reform" and increased democracy?
I don't want to voice my personal opinions on any of these, I'm just throwing them out there.... I'd really like to know.
Programmer Craig
The average guy in the street knows nothing about politics yet talks about it all the time.
The guy in the streets even those who are supposedly educated in the west & america hate america yet adore its luxuries & currency.
Do you really think they know what they want? ...the majority regard Israel as an enemy even though there is a treaty signed & no more occupied egyptian land. Alot want to go to war with Israel , why, they dont know for sure so they will mention palestine & the banal quds.
The Average egyptian says how fed up they are with Mubarak, even though the guy to be frank did some good things to the country but i can assure you they will repeat the whole process again with whomever takes over, whether the MB or the army or ayman nour,& continue to condemn the US whether they are right or wrong. It has become a way of life now, they would rather blame anyone but themselves for the chaos.
Vicegrip
If Hillary wins, she will make a fine president, maybe better than her husband even who is by far 10 X better than the current pompous git in the maison blanche.
nancy, my blog is as lousy as an english winter day. yes ofcourse i have an email, who here doesnt?? but may i ask why?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sandmonkey,
you seem confident that free trade with the US would be good for egypt. i can't say i feel the same. and, yes, i do subscribe to all that bull about the WTO and its designs actually being bad for most of the world's citizens. in any case, i'm curious to know why you think a free trade agreement with the US would be good for egypt. if the egyptian delegation has any chance of negotiating favourable terms for egypt, i'm thinking their efforts will benefit big business and little else (the delegations have no reason to accomodate the various interests put forth by stake-holding segments of the public...who am i kidding... do we even have those aslan). if you buy into the whole trickle down thing then the prioritising of big business is just fine. me, i don't. theory aside, my concern is that corporate egypt isn't qualified for that task (re. the privatisation fiascos of the past 10-15 years). (and this is not even considering what might happen to local small and medium sized producers when we open up our own markets to foreign products.) don't get me wrong, i'm not saying the government should keep its industries to itself, because it's also doing a shitty job. i just think the new cabinet's whole vision similarly misses the point. at best they will bring us a slick egypt, plastered in bigass shiny canvas ads, it's supermarkets littered with coloured flavoured shit, magazines and youth gagging on mobile melody codes, nice highways to more ain sokhnas, more private cars, luxury hotels, overpriced elitist brat mills in the desert... public education will remain shit, youth as an economic resource, the market is king. and the vast majority of people will complain and be bitter and carry on making do with not enough money in the face of too much crap on which to waste it. i don't know where economic liberalisation wil take us but i have a really shitty feeling about it. materialism and consumerism are already rife and revolting. in all sincerity, and without polemics, i want to know why you think liberalising would be good.
Sandmonkey
Nobody, nobody and I repeat nobody should accept blackmail from another nation.
Sandman, where is you patriotism, do you enjoy beeing a slave?
Where is your love for the homeland?
Have you been brainwashed to that extent?
Should we be slaves of foreign nations and do exactly what we are told?
Bring your military here, sign a peace treaty there, release this political prisoner, if you don't do this we will no longer sign a trade deal with you and bla bla bla ...
Hold on, hold on, where the hell are the limits!
What's up with this bull???
We civilized the world, have 5000 years of history, perfected math and architecture, we are the "hollywood" of the mideast and the only superpower in Africa. We do not need them, is that clear enough?
What's up with their sudden arrogance? A culture based on Big Macs, fries and chips has no lessons to give me or any other Egyptian!
If we had pride, we sould set some conditions of our own. We could for example increase the Suez tariffs, place restrictions on natural gas sales in the future (and we know well they will need it soon), ban their archeologists from our great land and place some conditions on their businesses operating in the country.
Sandman, I am a big fan of capitalism and the west in general but I do not agree to see the whole world beeing used as a strategic chess game by some.
What's happenning lately is simply called "colonialism", the only thing that has changed is the colonial power.
It wasn't right before, and it's not right today!
Worse part is, you know I'm right and you will never admit it!
Yes Sir! Yes Sir! Yes Sir!
That's all they want to hear to feed their ego.
Keep on repeating it Sandman!
Goodbye
I actually blame god. According to mr. bush god only told him to free iraq but not egypt. I only blame americans for electing a maniac as president. Yes sure, the voices in your head are god's orders.
But seriously, don't you think the "masses are dumb and don't know what's best for them" are just lame excuses? Everyone's talking about the topics they couldnt care less about, democracy, elections, WTO and various other things that seem vaguely related to what is important: SOCIAL JUSTICE.
The new cabinet's plan is to sell all there is in egypt that is public property, because good management and profit are mysteriously linked to privitization. WTO and free tradce agreements will sure help sawiris to make more money, hell it could even get walid ben talal to invest more. But unemployment should definitely stay high, you don't labour to become expensive do you? That might decrease the investors' profit and scare them away, and we wouldn't want that do we?
Sorry for rambling, i'll just go back to playing with my chavez action figure.
to Anonymous Zealot
You dont like superpowers telling smaller nations what to do then you mention you (who is you?) civilized the world & have a 5000 year history yet you do not mention that even the Egyptians would have done even more than what the Americans are doing today. What do you think Empires are built on? justice? the Egyptians, Babylonian, Persian, Roman & ARAB empires all ruled with an iron fist & dictated to weaker nations & tribes what to do. You can only be respected through knowledge & science, not through empty zealous words that end up in the gutter, just look at how feeble & naive your suggestions are..increase the suez Tariff, ban their archealogists from Your GREAT LAND...where do you think you get your machinery from? your spare parts, the PC which you used to send out your message on a net invented by them, you cannot live without them & forget please about this stupid Pride talk cos its Hollow with a cpital H. You want isolationism & the world is opening up, just see what you wrote about the only superpower in Africa, that was a good laugh..really? only sduperpower in africa? man, you are so ignorant...have you heard of South Africa? they are more advanced than your country, even Tunisia & Morocco are advancing faster than a heavy egypt backing on its own tracks, i wont mention some other african nations who are soon to catch up with Egypt.
You cannot dictate your own rules or set standards simply because you dont contribute to humanity anymore, your suggestions & ideas are archaic as the civilization you claim to be of is. Not just dangerous with obsolete nasserist BS theme but it will make matters worse.
Anonymous, do you prefer to live under a dictatorship or a democracy? If you prefer democracy, why not welcome pressure on the dictator? The ressure is not aimed at the Egyptian citizens but at the Mubarak regime, which from what I hear has long outstayed its welcome.
to Anonymous Zealot
You dont like superpowers telling smaller nations what to do then you mention you (who is you?) civilized the world & have a 5000 year history yet you do not mention that even the Egyptians would have done even more than what the Americans are doing today. What do you think Empires are built on? justice? the Egyptians, Babylonian, Persian, Roman & ARAB empires all ruled with an iron fist & dictated to weaker nations & tribes what to do. You can only be respected through knowledge & science, not through empty zealous words that end up in the gutter, just look at how feeble & naive your suggestions are..increase the suez Tariff, ban their archealogists from Your GREAT LAND...where do you think you get your machinery from? your spare parts, the PC which you used to send out your message on a net invented by them, you cannot live without them & forget please about this stupid Pride talk cos its Hollow with a cpital H. You want isolationism & the world is opening up, just see what you wrote about the only superpower in Africa, that was a good laugh..really? only sduperpower in africa? man, you are so ignorant...have you heard of South Africa? they are more advanced than your country, even Tunisia & Morocco are advancing faster than a heavy egypt backing on its own tracks, i wont mention some other african nations who are soon to catch up with Egypt.
You cannot dictate your own rules or set standards simply because you dont contribute to humanity anymore, your suggestions & ideas are archaic as the civilization you claim to be of is. Not just dangerous with obsolete nasserist BS theme but it will make matters worse.
ALi
No need to bring God into such human activity. No its not a lame excuse that the masses are dumb & dont know whats best for them simply because 45% of the egyptian population are illiterate. They cannot write or read, therefore they cannot know their rights or what is good or bad for them to start a real democracy. The average guy does not know what the deal tarde will do or how the economics of the country is run. Social justice is yes a goal but tell me dear ali, do egyptians excercise social justice with eachother on a daily basis? dont the poor scam the poor too, dont the rich use & abuse the poor just as the poor do so to the poorest & so forth?
Is it the Governments fault that people are still reproducing more kids whom they are not sure whether they will be educated to get a job, in 1980 there was huge TV campaign and billboards reminding people egypt has become 40 Million people and what will it mean in the future. less than 30 years later the numbers have doubled, why may i ask...before you play with your chavez figure or frame your nasser poster, look at the people first before you criticise the government, which i am not defending but you should put things in perspective to be objective, dont you think
"democracy, elections, WTO and various other things that seem vaguely related to what is important: SOCIAL JUSTICE."
Ali, why 'vaguely'?
To Jokerman,
Yup, you're really a joke just as your name describes....
Some of the greatest scientists in the world are of Egyptian descent (behind the apollo space mission), one of the founding fathers of heart surgery is Egyptian, one of the richest men in the world running the planet's 5th largest telecom company is Egyptian (Sawisris family look it up)and the 2nd richest man in Texas is Egyptian (M. Sarofim, look it up buddy).
Let's continue: the ex-president of the UN was Egyptian (Boutros Ghali) and the current president of the UNAE is Egyptian. Should I continue to educate you? The largest public access to the internet in the whole region is in Egypt and largest numbers of cell phone subscribers in africa and the mid-east is in Egypt.
These facts are not in a distant past, they are all current or fairly recent.
And on an academic level, we have always and continue to be the intellectual and cultural center of the mideast.
The Moroccans and Tunisians listen to Egyptian radio, watch Egyptian movies and listen to Egyptian and Lebenese music....Their arab-speaking elite still studies in Egyptian universities.
Not too bad you ignorant, I guess we're still civilizing the area....
So, what were you saying again???
By the way, are you enjoying your Big Mac???? Ahhh....culture!
Give me a call man. And check out the photo shoot.
Karim
anonymous git
first of all, go & check out the word jokerman first & dont confuse it with the cards joker.
secondly, oh boy...
some greatest scientists in the world sure, thats why only one got the Nobel peace prize, doing research with westerners in the west!!! yeah, Mgady Yacoub was good but you forget he wouldnt have been that good if he stayed in egypt, he made it in England which recognised his talent regardless of his nationality that you are obsessed with.
please dont even mention just one person in NASA & give them credit of all scientists working there.
thirdly, Boutrous ghali meen ya 7abibi...he was educated in the west & appointed by westerners.
Egypt used to be the culutral centre yes, not anymore im afraid. the liberal thinkers that rejuvenated egypt are long gone, now any liberal thinker or writer is condemned to death so dont start with the music nowadays as it will be pathetic.
A person such as yourself who isnt ashamed to mention a few individulas who made it, making it seems as a success story fot the country...big difference.
fourth ;on an academic level we have always and continue to be the intellectual and cultural center of the mideast,; says who???? havent you heard of Israel with its technological skills & innovations? what about Lebanon that rose from the rubble to be the country it is today even with the political turbulence it faces..you want to talk about statistics? or you want to delude yourself that egypt is still as great as it always was? just because a telecom co is the 5 in the world, if its true, doesnt mean egypt is great.
Mohamed el fayed wasnt even in the top richest men in the UK 3 years ago so dont mention him either.
Who told you all these people listen to egyptian films & music nowadays??? you call me ignorant when its you who wants to self elude himself of a by gone history & a past that he isnt part of anymore & what egyptian universities mr Enlightened may i ask? niot one university features in the top 100 or 200 even of the world, go & look at the scientific achievements & tell me how many arabs do you see there let alone egyptian. A few cases doesnt generalise or reverse the facts...& those cases were simply following western education & rules not egyptian you bozo.
you dont even know what culture is, what culturte do you belong to anyway? arab? egyptian? north african? coptic? you wouldnt know the difference between them & a big mac that you are so obsessed about, its you who is the sore joke, what a loser....pity, one of your greatest ever philosophers answered you in an article written in the seventies, before you were born, that a few egyptians success stories doesnt mean you are heads to heads with the west, it just means they were good students. meaning that all what you talk about on the fact sheets doesnt amount to much in the global scale ya 3abqari...it means that you can study well but you cannot innovate on your own or invent on your own.
You didnt even reply about history seeing as you dont know much about it, & oh by the way my dear genius professor....before you delve into it & i deal another clobbering refute to your naive simpleton thesis, The Innovators & scientists of the Islamic world in ancient times were actualy muslims not arabs!! & while we are at it, why not go & read what Ibn Khaldun says about the arabs on civility & kingdom. plesant read bigot.
I'd prefer Mubarak and his son and his lady Mcbeth wife any time of day, than having the Moslem Brotherhood throwing Egypt over a cliff. If autocracy means saving the Egyptians from their own irresponsibilty, then I sadly welcome it.
Jokerman, here we go:
1)Nobel peace prize winner
(Anouar Sadat)
2)Nobel chemistry prize winner
(Ahmed Zewail B.S. and M.S. degrees from Alexandria University, Alexandria)
3)Nobel literature prize winner
(Naguib Mahfouz, educated in egypt)
:)That's already 3 more prizes then Lebanon, Tunisia, Morocco, Syria and Algeria put together ya habibi:) :)
4)Sawiris and his family, the richest man in Egypt and one of the richest in the world, made his fortune in Egypt.
5)Untill today, 80% of all arabic movies originate in Egypt.
6)Mohamed Al-Baradei is Egyptian
7)The University of Cairo still has the most foreign students compared to any other in the ME and Africa.
8)Egyptians are recognized medical doctors worldwide and even in the optometry sector.
9) Egypt has 30 million cell phone subscribers
10)The country that receives the most tourist in the ME is Egypt
11) Internet technologies and wiresless access are more developed in Egypt compared to Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia.
12)Even tv channels from Dubai, Lebanon(LBC) and syria constantly buy and show Egyptian soap operas.
13)The arab-speaking artist that has sold the most CD's in the entire world in the last 10 years is Egyptian (Amr Diab)
14)The most famous arab actors and singers of today and before are and have always been from Egypt (Hanan Turk, Mona Zaki, Sherihan, Mona Moneib, Um Kal Soum, Amr Diab and hundreds, yes hundreds of others...
Should I really continue to educate and civilize you or should I stop and have pitty for you...
Like I said, we have always been and will always be the most influencial player in this region of the world.
For milleniums we have been here with or without the help of the West. We did not have the help of the west in the 40's, 50's and 60's and we were still the academic and cultural center of the area.
Are you jealous of our current and past history?
Are you jealous of our culture and our accomplishments?
The fact that you don't have any culture shouldn't piss you off, you can always learn form us!
To Jokerman,
By the way, you are the one that doesn't even know his own culture, not me buddy.
I come from an aristocratic coptic family, you know the Copts, the descendants of the ancient Egyptians, the people that civilized you!
You're just what we call a fallah (a farmer)....Actually I'm looking for a servant, are you interested in the position? Send me your resume!
hey Aristocrat,
forgot to remind you of a saying im sure you wont even know or guess who it is, but hes egyptian,
he said:
IF you cannot be what your ancestors were or do what they have done
Then to boast about them & be proud is Shame on you.
like zaki naguib once said: Way7i, monz mata yagde al 7ewar m3 al seghar?
thanks anway for the good laugh, especially the aristrocratic bit, i will sure forward this to some friends in cairo, i am sure they will be entertained.
I'm very happy to see you are quoting only the best, Egyptians. It seems to be a habbit of yours. I'm also happy to see you're on an Egyptian Blog, guess you enjoy our knowledge and intellectual debates.
It is also not surprising to me that you have friends in Cairo, we're so nice and tolerant that we accept to discuss with all peoples, even the mentally challenged!
You can continue to quote our great writers, philosophers and intellectuals...As long as you know you're quoting the best, the Egyptians.
Take care and I'm the one thanking you for the great laugh.
"Like I said, we have always been and will always be the most influencial player in this region of the world."
Not to minimize your achievements, Mr. Other Anonymous, but there is a little country on your Northeast border that has 8 nobel prize winners, seven universities (i.e. 100%) in the top 500 in the world AND top 100 in the Middle East/Asia/Pacific in rankings (whereas Egypt fails to rank in any of these categories). Somewhere in the midst of these achievements, it also managed to capture about half your land and be nice enough to give it back under a peace treaty that was really your only viable option anyway.
Maybe you should hop a few thousand years into the future with that in mind.
Obviously they are our only competition in the area and I am very proud to know that no one else comes close to us on a cultural and intellectual level (Egypt and it's neibourgh)
But it would be more honest to say that our little neibourgh to the north east is in fact a mix of peoples from Poland, Russia, Germany, the US and other parts of the world. They all share the same religion but they are far from beeing a homogeneous race or country. It's more like the United Nations.
And all of this was achieved with the help of other nations, the financial backing of supportive countries and technology given by others.
Where would they have been without that help ? Probably way behind Egypt...
If you wanna play this game, we too could also put the peoples of Egypt, Lebanon and Syria together and you will see how many business owners, writers, doctors and intellectuals you will find.
Sherlock keep on doing your homework, you're wrong again!
Peace
To anonymous the hater,
You say: "it also managed to capture about half your land and be nice enough to give it back under a peace treaty that was really your only viable option anyway."
Actually, the treaty was in the interest of both parties. You did not have a choice, you had to give it back or else it would have been a horrible financial burden for you and the Russians would have kicked your as?%6....
Learn your history my friend!
Secondly, you had problems controlling a little peace of land called Palestine for all these years. They made you suffer tremendous losses in terms of people and money.
Imagine if you had to control a nation of 70 million people with allies, natural resources and an army....It wouldn't have lasted too long anyway!
You need us as a peace partner, you need our natural gas and you are not in a position of having 70 million new enemies...Actually, you need us more then we need you!
Don't push your luck Sherlock.
You never could and never will never be able to take us over!
Long live the great Pharaohs and Egypt!
Someone will Jokerman must be in great pain to live in Egypt and being Egyptian and hate his country and his people that much.
Have you considered being an assylum in any other western country? I see hate and anger in your tone all through your posts. Man you need a break, you need to love yourself and your country and it's people otherwise immigrate.
Hicham-Morocco
OK, I guess I'm figuring out who some of these anonymouses are...
To the anonymous who keeps calling everyone "Sherlock" :
What's the purpose of all the racism? I admire your patriotism and nationalism, but you don't have to put everyone else down in order to promote your own country. Do you?
Programmer Craig, I'm too absolutely lost among this predominantly "anonymous" thread, I don't know who do I agree or disagree with.
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