Sharon round-up
He is still under sedation and will be for the next 72 hours. The situation has many israelis shook up and those who get it know it threatens any future plans for peace between Israel and Palestine, not to mention that it's timing sucks. While the world leaders show concern for his health (he is in the white house's prayers and everything) and the arabs admitting that the world has something to lose by his death, those on the militant palestinian side are actually calling his stroke a "gift". It makes sense, cause, you know, when he dies, the palestinains will....what? Reclaim Jerusalem? Drive the Jews out to the sea? Get a cookie? Anybody knows?Anybody?
Oh well. Whatever!
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 1/05/2006 01:25:00 PM
116 Comments:
Today I was at the barber shop getting the split ends out of my hair, and the TV in the shop had an arabic news channel on (Al Jazeera or something of the sort..) where they were reporting on the whole matter. The guy who was cutting my hair was looking at the TV screen longer than at my head, cursing the guy like hell ("Rabbina ya7'dou we ye7ra2ou bi 3'az..") and once he even said to one of his collegues: "You know what, I really wished he would've died by commiting suicide, not like this.. He's a bloody infidel that's going to hell anyway, and if he'd have committed suicide too then he'll get tortured even more.."
Ok, I don't like the guy myself, but.. Sheesh..
LOL
None of the signs are spelled right. I saw one on MSNBC "Deat to Sharon". At least the kid isn't wearing a baseball hat.
One sign I saw a pic in a newspaper where this guy was protesting against "Boosh and Blier" (Bush and Blair)
I dont like sharon for reasons unrelated to the second intifada, he didnt order the sabra & shatila nor did he commit the many massacres alleged to him, & i think anyone who brings up sabra & shatila is an idiot. But in the early fifties he did lead a small group of commandos into egypt & killed 33 or 36 egyptian officers near the border in response to , again, palestinians who infiltrated the border & killed 1 or 2 israeli farmers. He also disobeyed direct orders in the Lebanon invasion in 1982 by going the whole way to Beirut when it was supposed to be only the south.
He might have showed signs of change But if he was as bloody as everyone repeats like a castrated parrot in heat, why didnt he crush the intifada out of existence when he has the tools? can someone compare him to khaled ibn el waleed who slaughtered between 30,000 & 70,000 according to our islamic historic traditional books in Iraq simply cos they resisted more than he expected? the well known saying "Blood never runs like water" begand when he vowed he would make their blood run like a river. pretty bloody huh?
He desreves to die, his day has come. What goes around comes around.
I really hate to give you any kind of credibility or sense of importance by responding to you Scorekeeper, because you definitely you know by now that I think you're an absolute imbecile, but weren't Israelis disributing candy in the streets last year when arafat died, not that arafat was a great guy either, both are nefarious enough, but why is it acceptable for the israelis and not the palestinians. Also, didn't your brother in lunacy Pat Robertson today say that this stroke is god's revenge against Sharon for giving away his (God's) land to the philistines, why was he given a free pass.
Mohamed,
Don't waste a breath on scorekeeper. Seriously man what is gonna make change is not the blogsphere, sometimes it is like pissing in the wind. What will make a real change is getting out there and reaching out for Senators, Congressmen etc....joining an international organization and getting educated.
I used to think that the forums of the blogsphere is another news source. It became a stupid war online with some idiots (Not all of course).
Ignorance is a bliss indeed!
As for Sharon (Shoushou) I won't even give a dime if he or Natanyahu or any of those war monger dies. They are invaders, aggressors, and stole land that doesn't belong to them.
He can Kiss Golda's Butt in hell if he wants.
Sharon should be burried under the wall of hate and shame he built. May his soul never rest until peace and Justice done to the Palestinians.
This is what the Guardian wrote about Sharon.
"Lieutenant Sharon had just commanded a raid against a West Bank village called Qibya, a reprisal for the murder of an Israeli woman and two children. Uproar had broken out after his men dynamited 45 houses and killed 67 Palestinian men, women and children, many of them buried under the rubble."
"No, they weren't passing out candies... and if anyone was (I never heard this) it was an infitesimal small minority."
you are totally out of it. The Jewish people were dancing in the streets of Israel. They were on most T.V. stations celebrating Arafat's death. The blogsphere was full of hate messages against Arafat, look back on Sandmonkey's blog and see what kind of hate messages were launched.
Most probably your head and brain was stuck in your freezer looking for leftover food thinking you are watching T.V.
I swear your diaper is leaking and you need to be changed.
Sandmonkey, the level of anti-arab readers of yours is dropping down big time. Man you need to attract back the smart ones.
Twosret is a HE these days lol. That shows who is the ignorant, idiot on this board :)
Omak! lol
Erekat told CNN. "I think it's alien... I cannot describe my feelings. It's heartbreaking to see Israelis hugging and kissing in such circumstances."
Now go and google this and see how many newspapers reported this incident. Unless you claim Erekat is a name of an Egyptian Pharoah.
Stop acting like a fool because you are a fool.
I have better things to do with my time than to waste on a airhead like you.
Twosret,
I saw them dancing on T.V. too....you are right, They are the same Jewish Orthodox that tries to go and destroy the Aqsa Mosque.
I think too that this guy scorekeeper can't even score in an I.Q. test.
Yes Scorekeeper and we are so glad too that Sharon will die because he have caused so many innocent Palestinian families saddness and destruction.
We the arabs have the right to dispise and rejoice in a death of leaders like him that is our enemy and destroy our lands and kill our parents. We the arabs have the same equal feelings about Sharon as you do about Arafat and we are entitled for it as much as you are.
So go and butt off if you don't like our replies and stop speaking on behalf of us. We are capable of expressing our thoughts and we don't need an Israeli like you to put words in our mouth.
From the Guardian Unlimited in London. Article named Sharon the brutal soldier.
Lieutenant Sharon had just commanded a raid against a West Bank village called Qibya, a reprisal for the murder of an Israeli woman and two children. Uproar had broken out after his men dynamited 45 houses and killed 67 Palestinian men, women and children, many of them buried under the rubble."
"The operation bore the hallmarks of a distinctive and brutal style. Qibya was one of many bloody episodes in Sharon's lifelong war with the Arabs. Elevated to the status of national hero, he spent his formative years fighting, disobeying orders and attracting admirers and enemies."
You have asked for a link and Twosret provided you a reliable CNN link and the guy is not lying. At least three people including myself saw it on T.V.
You are still trying to play games but the links are old, that doesn't mean they are invalid. You need 101 web surfing lessons.
There is hate against the forgein policy of America that sides with the Israelis, all along history America's forgein policy have allowed the Palestinian suffering and the injustice done to them. There is hate against Israeli invading lands.
In the occupied land there are people killed and Israeli soldiers rejoicing. The Israelis are bombing holy Christian sites and the world is watching.
You can try to play with the emotions from one side and show the world by writing on this site that Palestinians are rejoicing for dead people, when in reality the Israelis are killing a way more and destroying a way more than what the Palestinians are doing.
The terrorist faces of Israelis are not shown to the world because events like Jenin is not covered by T.V. the Israelis won't allow the T.V. stations to film the massacre of Jenin.
If you are not an Israeli by nationality you are an Israeli by adoption. Your views are bizzare and have no balance and no reason.
The wall of shame and hate built by Sharon and Israelis will be destroyed and no injustice done in this world will last forever. One day the Justice in the occupied land will be done and the Israelis you support will have a black mark in history.
Denial Denial Denial....Sarah don't even try, even if you bring news from all over the world to this guy about the extremist Jews attempting to destroy the Aqsa mosque SEVERAL times he will call it a lie.
Don't exhaust any more effort my dear the guy is a lost case.
Haaretz reports
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ArticleNews.jhtml?itemNo=449128&contrassID=13&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0
ABC reports
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200504/s1342129.htm
Aljazeera reports
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AD9419A2-1061-48EA-A341-77ADC09047CB.htm
FPA reports
http://www.fpa.org/newsletter_info2478/newsletter_info_sub_list.htm?section=Jewish%20Extremism
Thanks Twosret :)
Now here is a good article to read from Gush Shalom By Uri Avnery.
"Rejoice Not on Arafat's Death
By Uri Avnery
Gush Shalom, November 16, 2004
Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth, Lest the Lord see it, and it displease him.” This biblical injunction (Proverbs 24:17) is one of the most profound Jewish moral tenets.
In this connection, Israel is very far from being a “Jewish State”, as it likes to define itself. The disgusting filth poured out over Yasser Arafat during the last few days in practically all the Israeli media makes one ashamed to be an Israeli.
The demonization of the Palestinian national leader, which has been the center-piece of Israeli propaganda for decades, continues even after his death. It seems that 37 years as occupiers have bestialized our society and left it bereft even of common decency. Ministers and fishmongers, TV icons and university professors, “leftists” and outright fascists tried to outdo each other in utter vulgarity."
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/November/16%20o/Rejoice%20Not%20on%20Arafat's%20Death%20By%20Uri%20Avnery.htm
This is the kind of Jewish people that we respect and deal with.
Vatican comments about the Israeli attack on nativity church.
"This is an act of indescribable barbarity, a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation"
Father David Jaeger
Franciscan spokesman
The story:-
"Several hundred Palestinian gunmen and civilians fleeing Israeli tanks have been holed up in the church complex for nearly a week, along with a group of monks and nuns.
A spokesman for Catholic monks in the Holy Land said earlier that Israeli soldiers were guilty of an "indescribable act of barbarity".
Israel had broken its international obligations and risked "long-term and incalculable" consequences, Father David Jaeger said. "
By the BBC
Twosret and Sarah,
What this idiot Mike doesn't know is that non of us are muslims or Palestinians.
Excuse me for asking (again):
Given that both my parents were Jews born in Palestine in 1926, three years before Arafat was born in Cairo, could someone please tell me in what way am I less Palestinian than him?
And thanks for all who debunked Sarah's lies. Of course there was no sweet distribution when Arafat died; this is not a Jewish tradition. There was no massacre in Jenin, and nothing has ever been done by Israel against Al Aqsa mosque.
Quoting the BBC on Behtlehem Nativity church is priceless. I was watching the news daily at the time. The Beeb showed Arafat screaming from Ramaalah that the Israelis were attacking the church in Bethlehem, despite their own cameras on site showing the Israelis standing around doing nothing. Priceless.
peace is not going to happen just look at what is being said in here
None of this will matter in months when the nukes are dropped on Iran. Bye-bye. Who will dance in the streets then?
Confused anonymous,
Aren't you getting things a bit upside down? Wasn't it rather the nuke-developing Iran that threatened to wipe another country off the map?
But don't let facts confuse you.
Anat, believe me they were distributing candies on the sidewalks when Arafat died, it was shown all over the news. And regarding your national identity and rights, you're absolutely entitled to them, just don't deny it to the palestinians, and as a jew with all the persecution you've suffered throughout your history you should know better.
Dania, Twosert, Sarah, Anonymous @ 8:59, aparently, heinous acts are only defined as terrorism when it's committed by palestinians, but if it's committed by a Sharon, this elevates him to "a man of peace" status.
mohamed, there is a difference when an army retaliates & an individual who acts irrespective of his own governering authority, so yes, what militants do is terrorism & what the israeli army does is military reaction.
& what lesson has the Palestinians learnt from history may i ask?? You think they will get independence with all the anarchy there? they are filled with hatred & have caused problems wherever they went, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, tunisia...if a few individual israelis gave candies away when arafart died , its nothing compared to what palestinians did on 9-11 or any suicide bombings hitting israel. It is not the same situation.
No confusion but you don't think for a moment that Iran is going to be allowed to develop a nuke of their own. There are only a few ways to make sure that doesn't happen. When they are hit and they will be hit the fallout will be tremendous and the Palestinians will be the least of the worries of the Middle East.
Sarah:
"There is hate against the forgein policy of America that sides with the Israelis, all along history America's forgein policy have allowed the Palestinian suffering and the injustice done to them. There is hate against Israeli invading lands."
And what is the ultimate product of hate, Sarah? Death. You are preaching death and complaining about all the brutality at the same time.
Twosret, I'm not seeing anti-Arab stuff here. I'm seeing anti-Jewish and anti-American stuff. I think you are out of line this time. You're welcome to to rant about Israel and the US, but don't play the victim!
Mohammed, I am sorry but what you are saying has nothing to do with reality. No Israeli government has ever denied that Arabs are full citizens of Israel, and every Israeli government has always accepted all UN resolutions on dividing the land. It is the Arabs of Palestine who have always rejected it. I don't deny the right of local Arabs to citizenship, Israeli or PA according to location (and practically their choice). It is the PA and their supporters, like Iran, who deny my right to be here. Why, look up the following link for the supposed map of "Palestine" they teach their kids. Can you see Israel anywhere on those maps?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html
And all those Israeli atrocities you are talking about do not exist. It is the Jihadi gangs who target Israeli civilians, bombing restaurants, buses etc. The Jihadis are the most cowardly fighters anywhere in the world. Not only they fight women and children on buses instead of facing an enemy their own size as men should, but also they hide behind their own children for cover. They are simply the world's most dishonourable and despised non-men.
So are you telling me Anat, that Israel has never ever committed one single tiny itsy bisty piece of unprovoced atrocity?
After everyone is done hating each other, I think that we should realize something, whenever a leader dies or leadership changes, the reality is, the whole thing changes.
For instance, while Arafat might have been an embezzler and a narcissistic peacock, his brand of money and political pushing kept the major gangs under control. Now he's gone they've all be fighting over the carcass of Palestine because it is, for all intents and purposes, the money teat. Where else can you get billions of dollars thrown at you to do nothing?
Arafat at least had the power, money and charisma to keep some sort of order and peace.
Then, we have Sharon, certainly he has a past and certainly he was a strong man who may or may not have commited every "crime" associated with him (of course, if you are on the receiving end of anything, it is always the other side that was the criminal, but, I know little enough about this history to make that judgement), but let us say that he did make things happen. However, it is clear that he intended to unilaterally throw any agreements over, make Israel's borders as he desired and that would include Jerusalem.
REally, one would be confused if you thought that he cared what happened to the Palestinians after that. One interesting fact, he pulled the Israeli settlers from Gaza at gun point and nearly ruined his political standing, just so the Palestinians could dance in the street, declare it a victory and then, shortly after that, turn it into gangland.
Under no other leader are you going to get that. While the Palestinians cheer, they should remember that the most popular movement in Israel is anti-removing settlers and anti-anti-occupation.
In otherwords, the first guy that swears he is going to stop all this BS that Sharon started, not give up another piece of land and will quickly finish the wall to separate Palestinians from Israel and any claims to land there, wil be the man and party to be elected.
So, you might have though Sharon was the worst of the worst, but I think the phrase "you ain't seen nothing yet" applies. In which case, I might suggest, from either side of this discussion that celebrating the death of a leader, however despised, might be premature considering what will come next.
Excuse me Programmer Craig?! out of line? I will not reply until you explain yourself more.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sam,
I wouldn't want to participate in the discussion above, because I know I will probably be insulted by someone for expressing opinions they don't like or are not used to hear.
Sam... I wonder why some of the readers can't stay within a level that guarantees both disagreement and respect towards other readers.
Look at what I copied below from comments on this post, and you may share my feeling... although I understand that not much can be done about it without the people themselves changing the way they address each other.
"I really hate to give you any kind of credibility or sense of importance by responding to you..."
"because you definitely you know by now that I think you're an absolute imbecile"
"didn't your brother in lunacy Pat Robertson today say..."
"Don't waste a breath on..."
"It became a stupid war online with some idiots"
"you are totally out of it"
"Most probably your head and brain was stuck in your freezer looking for leftover food thinking you are watching T.V."
"I swear your diaper is leaking and you need to be changed"
"That shows who is the ignorant, idiot on this board :)
Omak!"
"Stop acting like a fool because you are a fool"
"I have better things to do with my time than to waste on a airhead like you"
"I think too that this guy scorekeeper can't even score in an I.Q. test."
"So go and butt off if you don't like our replies"
"we don't need an Israeli like you to put words in our mouth."
"You need 101 web surfing lessons."
"If you are not an Israeli by nationality you are an Israeli by adoption. Your views are bizzare and have no balance and no reason."
"Don't exhaust any more effort my dear the guy is a lost case."
"What this idiot Mike doesn't know is that..."
Egyptian Person,
If you really didn't want to join the discussion, you wouldn't have posted anything. Passive aggressive aren't we?! Congratulations you are part of the discussion :)
Read pervious posts on this blog and big Pharaoh blog (It might take you a month or so) may be you will know that arabs on those two blogs have endured hate, racisim, death threats, verbal abuse beyond your understanding.
Then may be you will understand that we are taking things very lightly and joking around instead of feeding racisim and hate.
I can only speak for myself of course. I like to make fun of situations, people, and even myself (you can say that I'm an Egyptian big time).
I always ask my readers to use the option of scrolling down you know :)
Twosret, I like you're posting style and I even like your hot tempre and I usually like what you say, but I think if you read back over the commenst in this thread, you'll see that most of the comments you made were unprovoked.
I don't know what history you have with other commenters. That may explain it. But if Mohamed is the same Mohamed from SMs blog and BPs blog the last couple months (hard to tell without a blogger ID) that guy has said some pretty hateful things to people.
I don't know. Maybe you have cause to be so angry at the people you were commenting to. But from where I'm sitting, knowing nothing excepot what I read in these comments, it looked to me like you were on the attack. You weren't the only one, but you were the only one that I pay much attention to :)
Thank you, Kat. Just a few factual corrections:
You say of Arafat that "his brand of money and political pushing kept the major gangs under control". Fact is, it was Arafat who created some of the gangs, chiefly Fatah and the Al Aqsa Brigades, and had deals with the others. He made the classic mistake of all dictators in thinking he will always be able to control them, forgetting that they are bound to develop a will of their own.
You say of Sharon: However, it is clear that he intended to unilaterally throw any agreements over, make Israel's borders as he desired and that would include Jerusalem." Fact is, Sharon could not have thrown any agreement over because the Arabs of Palestine have repeatedly rejected all proposed agreements on establishing any kind of border between them and Israel, notably their rejection of UN resolution 181 of 1947, UN resolution 242 of 1967, and the Clinton-Barak offer of 2000-2001. Even the "green line" that existed between 1949 and 1967 between Israel and the west bank was defined, by Arab insistance, as temporary ceasefire line rather than real border. When you are attacked across a border your attacker refuses to agree on, you have full right to establish it unilaterally.
You say: "REally, one would be confused if you thought that he cared what happened to the Palestinians after that." Why should he? In what way are they his responsibility? They claim independence and get it. The rest is their own business.
continued next post (sorry, it's Sam's word limit)
Continued:
And now for the real beauty: "One interesting fact, he pulled the Israeli settlers from Gaza at gun point and nearly ruined his political standing, just so the Palestinians could dance in the street, declare it a victory and then, shortly after that, turn it into gangland." Are you saying that, having withdrawn and given them the independence they faught for, it is Sharon's fault that they turned their land into gangland?
If you are really after historical and social truth, you should know this: the sad history of the Arabs of Palestine is that they have been oppressed by Jihadi gangs continuously since 1921 (precisely, this is the date of the appointment of Haj Amin, a Jihadist and eventually a Nazi ally, as mufti of Jerusalem). These gangs have always ruled them physically by terror and murder and psychologically by blaming others, especially the Jews. What you now see in Gaza is the same old story.
Then you say :"While the Palestinians cheer, they should remember that the most popular movement in Israel is anti-removing settlers and anti-anti-occupation." Here you are in total error. What you call "the most popular movement" is shown by all polls to muster at most 17% of the vote. The remaining 83% percent, from Sharon's centrist Kadima to the far left, are in favour of Sharon's withdrawals. So how can you predict with such confidence that the anti-withdrawal movement will win the elections? (beside, you seem uncertain whether Sharon is evil for withdrawing, or his opponents are evil for opposing it. Make up your mind.)
Finally you talk of "the wall to separate Palestinians from Israel and any claims to land there". Do you know why no lawsuit has ever been filed for such land claims? because of the justified Arab apprehension from return claims for Jewish property and land confiscated by Arabs not only in the West Bank but also in Morocco, Egypt and Iraq (variably in different places beween 1929 (West bank, esp Hebron) 1948-9 (east Jerusalem), and 1956 (Egypt).
Sorry, I made a mistake above about the calculation of Right and Left in Israel. The true support of the centre-left (pro-withdrawal) is not as above though still sizable at about 60%.
This is how the calculation goes:
The latest polls (done yesterday, when it was already clear that Sharon is out of the political picture), gives Likud (Right) 16 seats which is about 13%, as opposed to the Centre-Left about 60 seats (Kadima 40, Labour 20) which is 50%. The rest is divided between small parties on the right and left which, judging by their representation in the present Knesset, swells the Right to about 40% and the Left to about 60%.
These numbers seem to me reasonably accurate. 60% majority in a real democracy is huge, and in no way supports Kat's claim for an opposing trend in Israel.
The same UN Resolution that created Israel also created Palestine. The Geneva Convention explicitly forbids establishing colonists on occupied land. Sharon was one of the architects of the Israeli policy of bulldozing Palestinian homes and fields, sending the owners to refugee camps (if they lived) and building houses (with American tax dollars) for the "chosen people" on stolen land.
That said, I wish many long years of life ahead for Sharon, as a drooling idiot in XXXXL diapers. He needs the latest three million dollar bribe to pay for them.
Kassandra, while it is true that the same UN resolution that created Israel also created an Arab Palestine (UN resolution 181), you forgot to mention that this was never implemented because the Arabs rejected the said UN resolution and most of the relevant areas were annexed by Jordan (the West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza strip). You also forgot to mention that it was in a war of defense against Egyptian and Jordanian aggression that these territories passed into Israeli hands, and that the UN resolution that calls for returning them in exchange for peace (UN resolution 242) was accepted by Israel and initially rejected by all Arabs. You also forgot to mention that any Arab eventually agreeing to Resolution 242, primarily Egypt, indeed received back all they agreed to receive (the whole of Sinai).
You can check these facts for yourself if you don't believe me, e.g. on UN records.
As to your statement that Israel terrorised the Arabs of Palestine into fleeing, this is simply not true. Those who wished to stay stayed, are now Israeli citizens.
I have often wondered how those who accuse Israel of deliberate ethnic cleansing explain the existence of Israeli Arabs, and what is their opinion of the real and total cleansing of the Jews of Egypt, for instance.
Please try to understand. The Arab-Israeli conflict is not about self-determination for Arabs. It is about the right of self-determination for Jews, still denied by most Arabs.
PG,
Thanks for the explanation. I was not angry at all, I was joking around really.
As for the UN resolution part this is my Fav. part about the UN resolutions : enjoy y'all
A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel"
1955-1992:
* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
*Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious
obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the
council's order not to deport Palestinians".
* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide
by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported
Palestinian mayors".
* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
nuclear facility".
* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
allow food supplies to be brought in".
* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
in attack on PLO headquarters.
* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students
at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United
Nations.
* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians
and calls for their immediate return.
Anat from Israel,
Here she goes again by loathing lies trying to support it by Israeli numbers.
You are very wrong and all what you say is a lie, These are your wishes and hopes not the truth. The Palestinians disagree with some Jihadis but the real ENEMEY that stole their land is ISRAEL and people like you.
The Berlin wall the wall of hate and shame built by the war criminal Sharon will be knocked down.
You show your face on blogs to twist the truth and the reality to people who have no chance to visit or see the brutal occupation of your country. Shame on you!
That's an interesting list, Twosret. But could you please explain what any of these resolutions has to do with defining borders for both Israel and Palestine, as opposed to resolution 181 and its followups (esp 242) discussed by Kassandra and myself, which relate precisely to such borders?
And anonymous, you evidently don't know a truth from a lie even when it comes to your own anonymous name. Check the UN website if you don't believe me.
Isn't it sad how the UN manages to condemn Israel for human rights violations, when it's the only country in the middle east that even HAS any respect for human rights?
That list of UN resolutions is very telling, Twosret, but it doesn't tell me the same thing it tells you, I think.
PG,
I would like to say that you are either misinformed or unaware of Israel as a country. I will direct you to this site that shows the exact opposite of your claims that Israel has ANY respect to human rights.
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/full_index.htm
Enjoy!
Anat,
Once I saw your reference to the UN this list came to mind that is all.
Twosret, come on. Palestinian Centre for Human Rights?
And I'm supposed to treat that as anything but propaganda? How is that different than the groups who claim the US doesn't have any respect for human rights?
I'm better able to see the truth than that.
Would you like to do a line item comparison between Saudi Arabia and Israel on a human right checklist?
I'm perfectly willing. I'll start.
As a Christian tourist, can I bring my Bible to:
A) Saudi Arabia
B) Israel
I chose B.
Your turn :D
Programmer Craig, please if you're going to put anything in my mouth try to have some of Twosert's amazing research ability and quote exactly what "hateful things" did I exactly say, true I went only three times out of line with sandmonkey and yasmina and I was just rude, as for my opinion about scorekeeper, I still stand ny them, goto his blog man and see for yourself what a beacon of hate he is.
PG,
I have been super busy in the past 8 months. Move, two infants, school, job changes and the whole 9 yards.
I will have to believe that you are a curious person and willing to listen to both sides and then make up your mind. If you disregard the Palestinian human rights fight for it's people then I'm waisting my time. The fact that your mind is set already to believe totally one side will be of a loss to you not me. When I look at a situation I try hard to listen to both sides then come up with a conculsion of my own.
This endless fight over land the Israeli-Palestinian struggle will never be solved unless both parties agrees to listen and compromise. The PEOPLE of both nations are willing to do that. I'm against the political leaders not the PEOPLE of Israel. I'm against extreme thoughts whether it is jewish, muslim, christian (including copts)etc.....
I'm giving you some references as an eye opener.
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/a0f0fb7c643fb735c1256b9900575bcf?Opendocument
I will continue to believe that you are reasonable :)
PG,
As for the Quiz above :) I would like you to Quiz a Palestinian native living in Jenin refuge camp this question not me.
I can safely assume that the choice will be Saudi Arabia.
Wanna bet?! $100.00 :)
I Think PG is correct & twosret is simply wrong for even thinking of the Palestinians humans right centre. But PG´s comparison between Saudi Arabia & Israel to bring a bible into is irrelevant.
Israel is democratic yes but at the same time has some disturbing affinities with religion.
Joker,
The tactics of discrediting Palestinians shows immaturity (Politically of course) on your part. Here is an overview of the Palestinian human right center. You can click on the above link and click on the links to know more.
This is not for your approval Joker because it is a fact already. Whether you like it or not it is legal and valid as per the International law and community.
Plus, there is no absolute right and wrong in a discussion, we are not on a race here.
I think PG's comparison is valid because it always ticked me that arab-christians can't visit or live in the Saudi carrying their bible while Americans do.
Nobody ever claimed that Saudi is democratic but what is interesting though that the US won't dare to go to war with Saudi over democracy. The US won't even attempt to ring freedom to the Saudi's or protect it's land from Saudi's that bombed the world trade center that were mainly Saudi's.
Oh well!
Overview of the Palestinian centre for human rights, BTW the other link I provided clearly outline by the UN the so called democratic Israel violiation of human rights:-
The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) is an independent legal body based in Gaza City dedicated to protecting human rights, promoting the rule of law and upholding democratic principles in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. It holds Special Consultative Status with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) of the United Nations and is an affiliate of the International Commission of Jurists, the Fédération Internationale des Ligues des Droits de l'Homme (FIDH), and the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network. PCHR is a recipient of the 1996 French Republic Award for Human Rights.
Hi Twosret, I assumed you've been busy because you haven't been very active on the blogs. I've missed you :)
"I will have to believe that you are a curious person and willing to listen to both sides and then make up your mind."
Twosret, I don't listen to either side in the Palestinian/Israeli issue. I consider them both to be completely disreputable and their opinions tainted by hate. I could read a palestinian propaganda site, but then if you really wanted me to consider "both sides" I would also have to read the competing Israeli propaganda. I prefer to read neither.
I don't read Palestinian blogs, and I don't read Israeli blogs. I think I am fair on this. My opinions are my own, drawn from my own experiences and my own perceptions. I don't have very much respect for the UN (for reasons unrelated to Israel) and I've been a UN peacekeeper twice. I feel that my opinions of the UN are well grounded in reality. So, using UN sources is not going to gain much traction with me.
"I will continue to believe that you are reasonable :)"
Thank you :) I have always believed you were reasonable too, and I still do.
But really, that guy Mohamed... *sigh*
Ok Programmer Craig, you can have the last word, I'm quiet tired and drained right now for further argument, and quiet futile to be honest since you'll misinterpret anything I write anyway.Just having Twosert's side is more than enough for me.
PG,
If Palestinian organization is a propaganda and the UN is not your cup of tea, then I suggest other sources and I think you are very well educated to search and conclude. i.e. do your home work :). I honestly do not write here to gain any approval . I think I'm barely creating balance to the one sided views. I'm an Arab-American and I love both countries and as equal as any American.
Like you I think both parties (Palestinian-Israeli) have done grave mistakes that were obstacles to Peace. The only problem I have with this line of thought that Palestinians and Israelis are not EQUAL PARTIES. Israel is a country with an army that occupies the Palestinian lands and control it's economy.
Mama US is providing the following to Israel, It piss me off that my tax $$$$ are going that way to kill our people:-
Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000
Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200
Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
Amusing huh!
As much as I'm pessimistic about the Politicians these days as much as I believe in the power of people. Young educated Palestinians and Israelis are giving me hope. Diana Buttu is a legal advisor to the PLO on peace negotiations with Israel is one of many good examples of moving forward.
As for Mohamed, I like this Mohamed and I'm not sure who is the other person you are referring to. I don't claim I read all Mohamed's views but we seem to agree based on personal experiences vs. empty hate statements.
Hey out of topic question, do you have little ones and if you do what do you think of Montessori schools?
Mohamed,
I'm not sure if it is a very good idea to be on my side. I have a history of bursting on others and bad temper :) very hot blooded (Sa3idiya)
I think there is a confusion with another Mohamed.
Twosert, if bursting on others or bad temper, makes you the most fair minded and well informed person (really, you're an encyclopedia embedded in a supercomputer) on this blog, then power to bad temper, and power to sa3ayda, although I'd like to call it passion. Why don't you put all this on your own blog, it would be a fresh change from SM (the only reason I read him is that he's really talented and funny, otherwise, I completely disagree with most of his writings).
I don't know about the confusion with the other Mohamed, although I admit, I once called SM a self hating arab who should throw himself of the cairo tower making the world one arab less, and yesterday I called yasmina a dyslexic, although I apologized later, regarding Scorekeeper, you know scorekeeper and I think we agree on that one.
Twosret,
I disagree with some minor things of what you wrote as an Israeli.
I have to admit that I respect you very much. I think you are a good Arab representative. Take politics as profession, go out there and preach peace if you can lady. Politics will become a better cleaner profession with people like you.
You are welcome to my country Israel anytime.
This is a reply to Anat from Israel and Scorekeeper the idiot,
Despite the fact that three people on this blog said they saw the Jews celebrating the death of Arafat by dancing in the streets including me and it was on T.V.
You are stupid enough to say NO it never happened. Here are some references provided by Twosret(thank you) on one of her very early posts on another site. I was reading another blog and found those references.
Ref. 1
Andy Martin reports from Media monitor USA:-
"Right-wing Israelis are dancing in the streets at the passing of Arafat; in the United States so-called "neo-cons" are tipping their champagne glasses; their "enemy" is dead. But just as Arafat outsmarted them in life, he has outsmarted them in death. "
http://usa.mediamonitors.net/headlines/yasser_arafat_and_the_death_of_israel
Ref. 2
This guy obviously hate arabs and Arafat and he reported that ABC news reported the dancing in the streets.
http://www.soldierofthemind.com/archives/2004/11/05/should_israel_celebrate.html
"Some Palestinians seem to think that Israel should join them in mourning the death of Yasir Arafat. ABC News reported today that when Arafat?s death was announced prematurely, ??? several dozen Jewish demonstrators gathered in a downtown Jerusalem square to celebrate, singing, dancing, distributing sweets and declaring that one of the greatest enemies of the Jewish people was ?on his way to hell.?? Responding to the celebrations, Saeb Erekat, a Palestinian lawmaker, told CNN, ?I hope the Israeli public will show sensitivities. I've seen some Israelis dancing in the streets, hugging each other? I think it's alien? I cannot describe my feelings. It's heartbreaking to see Israelis hugging and kissing in such circumstances.?"
Ref.3
From Amman Jordan
“The Israeli society became more right wing with the passing years. They completely destroyed the Oslo process. They are mistaken for dancing in the streets now and for claiming that the only obstacle to peace has been removed."
http://www.yayacanada.com/samdiary12.html
Ref 4
An Israeli insder web site reports:-
One week ago, Israelis prematurely celebrated after a reporter told President Bush that Arafat had apparently died. Some were distributing sweets, which is what the Arabs do when they dance in the streets in Gaza City to celebrate the latest genocide bombing.
A reporter dubbed the celebrants "Israeli extremists." What is so extreme about celebrating Arafat's death?
Now it's our turn to celebrate?and not just Jews. That means anyone who despises mass murderers like Arafat.
Personally, I think the death of Arafat constitutes a federal holiday in the United States and a comparable holiday in Israel.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/4371.htm
So Anat from Israel and Co. Go to Hell and don't open your stupid mouth again and accuse others of lying when you are simply a dumb ass!
P.S. I hope it is Okay with Twosret that I copied and paste her stuff. Thank you again.
Josh and Mohamed,
I'm flattered thank you for your kind words. Sarah, I knew I posted something before about this. I don't care what scorekeeper or Anat think or say but it is good you found those links.
I'm sure if I search, there will be more but what is the point really? Even if the event is on air daily they will find a way to Justify it or deny it (a la Israeli style you know ) :-)
Easy does it Sarah there are so many people that enjoy denial.
Twosret
I have seen your likes so many times so it is no surprise-
I didn’t use tactics for u to call me immature, & I stil ldont see how immature it is because I discredit an organization that’s Palestinian. I think it is immature on your behalf not mine, but you know it all with your copy & paste & that narrow minded tunnel of yours while boasting wise words in no absolute right or absolute wrong yet you are absolutist yourself…& by the way whoever you are, it is very immature & childish to talk about your bad temper & se3idiyah .who cares!! Grow up ya mama!
Jokerman, You are harsh in your judgement and I think it was clear that Twosret felt you are inmature Politically I quote Twosret"shows immaturity (Politically of course) on your part. " Unquote.
If some here keep discrediting every organization then it is inmature, you need to not take this personal. Cut and Paste speaks louder than personal opinions for those who are stubborn and discredit a viewrship of many(I happened to be one of them). I have followed the posts of Twosret before and they were not a copy and paste and I think she got a good head on her shoulder.
Be Patient before jumping your gun Jokerman. Passion is good on Twosret part and we don't need this to become personal.
Scott-Arizona
hey scott, I did not start anything personal. I dont care what you think of twosret but i do understand english & i dont see what the hell is wrong when i say that the bloody Palestinian humans right centre isnt to be taken seriously on any figures they give, they are people driven most of all by hatred, just look at their PA struggling to keep order when they know the disease yet wont move a finger towards it.
I dont care about her copy & paste as i can copy & paste pages & pages that would throw her copy & paste into shambles & for her cockiness to call me immature is paradoxically immature from her part not mine. She is an absolutist in many ways & thats consistent with the sa3idy mentality...she didnt even say why it is immature for me to discredit the palestinian human right centre, its like someone who calls Iran democratic simpyl because they have elections there. next time dear scott try to be more objective a bit in your assessments & as for your dear ally, i really dont want to burst her bubble, she/he is alot better in her mighty ignorance.
before your preach scotty, remember it is my right to disagree & i know alot to discredit palestinian organisations more than you & your dear twosret.
Scorekeeper,
"I find it sooooooo interesting that Twosret believes that Sandman and BP are spreading "hate for Arabs".... it's beyond laughable, it's pathetic"
I'm seriously thinking that you have a mental problem. As Mohamed said before you put words on my mouth. Where did I say that Sandmonkey and BP are spreading "hate for arabs".?
Sandmonkey and BP are both virtual and real life friends and I like them very much and we get along fine.
Instead of replying to Sarah this is all what you can come up with? false statements on my behalf?
I have been on this blog since it started and I get along fine with Sandmonkey, we disagree politically on several issues, what we have in common is we love our country (Egypt and the US) so don't try to redirect the topic and again play games.
Post a quote where I said that Sandmonkey and BP promote hate for arabs?.
Oh! and Sharon was very classy indeed when he ordered mass murders WOW he was dressed in his 56 size pants Ralph Lauren and 991/2 neck size Christian Dior and wrote the orders in a gold Mont Blanc pens.
What medical negligence? the guy is 500 lbs
He was so classy that he was fired from the army for a year after Sabra and Shatila.
Eih ya Mohamed howa el wad dah magnoon wallah eih?
Jokerman,
You are not upset because I called you politically inmature. You are upset because I happened to disagree with your motto that all Palestinians are haters.
I never addressed you in the first place you did volunteer to reply to me. It is non of your business if I chose to cut and paste or not.
You have an option to scroll down if you don't like it.
Neither you or anyone else is capable of bursting my bubble because I don't have a bubble in the first place.
To sum it up, if you don't like what I write take a hike!
Well Scorekeeper, you are not only inmature politically, you are rude and arogant. Your generalization and hateful statements shows how biased and unbalanced are your thoughts.
wow SM this will prove to be your most 'popular' post yet. You are enjoying this ya basha ..i can see you ;)
So i'm stuck with deficient internet here and have been missing all the fun. 79 comments and counting....
Let me go back and check again what was the topic.
Ok to answer SM's question, will Palestinians regain their country when/if Sharon dies? I'm not sure if that was sarcastic, but I'll just take it at face value. No SM not when Sharon dies, but he has been a big obstacle to peace despite his recent Gaza pull out.
On the other hand talking about the head of a country and speculating is normal everywhere in the world..people are not picking at Israel. When Arafat was ill the same circus took place and people were talking of his legacy while he was hospitalised still, and wishfully thinking that after he dies the road to peace will be without a crease. Well here we are one year later and what do you have ? Arafat's nemesis dying and we have not moved one inch towards peace . There is a sign and a lesson in all of this I just am not sure if we have been wise enough to see it.
Still I've seen many readers here abusing each other . Why? if we cannot convince someone without shouting then we never will. We have to be prepared to actually LISTEN to what the other person is saying or in this case read it carefully.
So Ariel Sharon is gravely ill, he has not been the epitome of good , in fact I'd venture to say that he has innocent bloof on his hands and the feeling of relief that somehow it is payback time is evident even here in Libya among ordinary folks. I'm not going to talk badly of the dead or ill but if he survives it will really be hell for that kind of man especially if he is brain damaged.
I can see that from Sharon the readers branched into all sorts of interesting stuff.
Programmer_Craig I think your suggestion of propping him up like in the Soviet era leaders is hilarious but might be difficult to manage ;)
Although I believe that the next PM will be even less accomodating and more cruel, I don't think it really matters . Peace is not a commodity ,you cannot switch it on and off , you have to fight for it just like freedom. Imposing it on the terms of the stronger military party is not going to work.
Twosret I agree with you that there has been abuse against Palestinians be they Christian or Muslim. I also would like to thank you for your well researched facts, especially the UN resolutions :) my dear you have saved my life and time I was looking for them . Welcome back to posting we missed you!!!!
Hi Highlander :)
"Imposing it on the terms of the stronger military party is not going to work."
Well, that's really the crux of the problem. Historically, the ONLY way peace is imposed is on the terms of the winner. The case we have now is one in which the Palestinians do not believe they have lost a war, and are continuing to fight it. So, there is currently a state of war. Which is why all these plans to implement a peace are just wasted effort. In my opinion.
On the other hand, I don't know any better than anyone else does how to end the conflict. But there cannot be peace in the middle of an ongoing war, that's for sure. People are going to have to stop fighting first, before they can come to a peaceful solution.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter who leads the Plaestinains, or who leads the Israelis. The fighting will continue. It's motivated by hate now, not the political best interests of the parties involved.
PG and Highlander,
There is no peace without Justice, the parties are not equal. The main conflict is over land and until justice is done (splitting the land by half in my opinion)there will be no peace.
The more Israel will opress,occupy, build walls and supress the Palestinians the more extremisim will be rooted deep in the Palestinian and Israelis communities. Extremism by the right wing jews is a constant threat to the peace process.
SM question is sarcastic for sure, Sharon never intended peace in my opinion. Since when he was a man of peace anyway?! The Palestinians will not get their lands under people like Sharon or Natanyahu.
Rabin was the hope and he was killed by a Jewish terrorist. Yeah Jewish people have terrorists too you know ;)
Ok, I gotta admit, I am loving this! Hehehe!
I better write something new quick, huh?
Scorekeeper, actually Baruch Goldstein is considered a superhero in the orthodox and settlement movement, that they've turned his grave into somekind of a holy shrine.
P.S: You're still annoying.
Scorekeeper, also israeli terrorists are not always jailed as you've mentioned, sometimes they're elected prime ministers, Begin, Shamir and Sharon just for starters.
Scorekeeper,
That is exactly what I expected you to reply. I was waiting for you to post this :) Enjoy :)
Mohamed here are few things to add to your post :)
Here is some history Documented of the ISRAELI TERRORISM for you to read.
"After the state of Israel was established, the Lehi, displeased with what it considered the too pro-Arab views of the Swedish UN-appointed mediator for Palestine, assassinated him; on September 17, 1948, Count Folke Bernadotte-who, as a neutral diplomat in World War II, had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps-was shot and killed by Lehi assassins, along with French colonel Andre Serot, the senior UN military observer, whose wife's life had been saved by Bernadotte."
"The Bernadotte assassination was so outrageous that the nascent government of David Ben-Gurion had little problem disbanding the Lehi (though none of the assassins were ever brought to justice). Yet, despite this history of terror, the Israeli Ministry of Defense underwrites museums commemorating the Stern Gang and the Irgun- which, under Menachem Begin, bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel in 1946, leaving 90 dead and 45 wounded (with 15 Jews among the casualties). Like Lehi, it wasn't until 1948 that the Irgun was forced out of existence, after its arms-transport ship, the Altalena, was blown up by the provisional Israeli government-a point analysts like Ibish say bears remembering. "
"There are streets named after the assassins of Moyne and Bernadotte. They are historical figures not disavowed by the rhetoric of the state of Israel, nor is there any reflection on the fact that two terrorist leaders later became distinguished leaders of the republic," Ibish says. "And now people are saying that Arafat must have his Altalena." Ibish adds that Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, "never moved against the Irgun and the Stern Gang until after the state was established and secured, which is definitely not true in the case of the Palestinian Authority. Essentially, the Israelis are asking the Palestinians to do something they themselves refused to do."
Wallahi ya Mohamed he is annonying begad but he does makes me laugh, I would rather mess with his brain and get him all worked up than cook :)
His BRAIN!!!! twosret? That's giving him too much credit, the most primitive brain (let's say the gold fish's) let's you interact with the surrounding stimulus with the appropriate impulses, this guy's got a complete short circuit.
I'd rather call it his mush.
Sorry Scorekeeper, just trying to give you a valid reason for your arabphobia. And by the way the "kuffar" reference was a true cheap shot, I'm sure you're really ecstatic that you've learned a new word, and so much wanted to use it to demonstrate what a preschool scholar you are , but I think you're just projecting your prejudice and ugliness.
Scorekeeper, Thanks. Your efforts are truly heroic.
For myself, I don't see much point in continuing. Sadly, as long as these people keep mixing up aggressor with defender and terrorist-in-jail (Israel) with terorist-on-state-payroll (Palestinian Authority), they don't stand a chance of understanding those Jihadi terror attacks also on Egyptian soil, Iraqi soil and elsewhere.
Too bad the hardcore player Anat from Israel ;) is withdrawing because she is a loser. Answer Sarah Anat don't bitch out like that.
Sarah doesn't deserve an answer, anon. Sarah was pretty abusive and insulting. And her argument seemed to consist entirely of copying and pasting stuff that Twosret provided for her anyway :P
Programmer Craig,
Next time someone call the shots should know better that there is a slight opportunity that people are not liars.
Anat was abusive too for calling everyone else a liar. Unless you think Anat the Israeli is entitled to insult others. The main point is that the Jews did celebrate and dance and gave out sweets.
Calling scorekeeper a hero with all his mess posting is insulting to any hero. The guy is a freak and disturbed pretty much.
Jana
Poland
Those arab dudes fucked up the Israelis argument this time dude. I don't give a rat ass to this topic but man those arab girls are go getters and know their business. They ripped the man's brain hands down.
Anon,
Your delusions of victory are pathetic. But who cares. Just like all those other Jihadi "victories" which draw the Middle East downhill, in case you haven't noticed.
Twosret, Understand ENGLISH...or take a shot at LOGIC.
maybe when you grow up a bit you might see the errors of telling others what you should tell yourself.
Twsoret...this statement you wrote( There is no peace without Justice, the parties are not equal. The main conflict is over land and until justice is done (splitting the land by half in my opinion)there will be no peace.) does show how a political dud/fluke/ you are...what justice in Politics are you talking about? ...oh well, im sure you have some copy & pasting to do now but thanks for the laugh anyway.
On a side not, this is the 100th comment on this post. It's the first time that happend, so it just had to be me. Yay for me!
Ok, keep on fighting now!
Jokerman,
You are here for trouble and you are provoking idiotic thoughts on your part. I hope Twosret won't reply to your nonsense.
Politics is not what makes nations and brings back lands. Politics is dirty but the right of the people is still valid.
Look at your name for pete's sake what a moronic name anyway.
Anat,
And just like your Israeli terrorism for the past 50+ years in case you didn't notice that the lands you live on are OURS. A bitch like you should be grateful that she got a house.
Hmm, interesting. Which brings me round to the question in my first post here:
Given that both my parents were Jews born in Palestine in 1926, three years before Arafat was born in Cairo, could you please tell me in what way am I less Palestinian than him and the land less mine than his?
And please answer to the point. Your curses convince nobody.
Jana, people are entitled to insult BACK when they get insulted. I read the commenst twice (and I'm not reading 100+ comments again!) and I have my own conclusion about who was ramping up the personal attacks. I'm giving anyone a pass, I'm just saying that Sarah's first comment was abusive, and she never stopped.
Congrtas, SM... I bet it would happen a lot more if you didn't do 143 new posts every day :P
Playing hide and seek aren't we?! you are Anat from Israel that is your handle. You were adopted to the Palestinian community when you moved. Thanks for the gracious Palestinians. In return you come here to damage the image of Palestinian that opened their country to you.
An ungrateful bitch. That is what I think of you. Don't play the Palestinian patriotic act on me. I saw your previous comments before and how you hate the guts of Palestinians.
Programmer Craig,
If anyone is playing a bully like Jokerman he should get the answer he deserves from others. So far the arabs on this board have shown much more critical thinking and intellect in reply to the Israeli manevour or pro-israeli thoughts.
I take out the curses and look at facts, I don't like cursing but this is not my focus. I focus on how accusations were made and what replies do people have and follow the conversation. I don't get distracted by curses.
Jokerman the bully have not provided us with any sane or logical replies instead he is on on the roll over Twosret, I encourage critical thinking but someone without a critical thinking like Twosret won't even know where to look or coy and paste. Since the begining of the conversation, critical thinking and opinions of Twosret and others were denied from the other group of Pro-Israelis. The cut and paste serves the purpose pretty well.
Abuse has taken place on so many topics on this forum against arabs and yet I haven't found an objection from end to the anti-arab abusers.
Sandmonkey should be happy to see both sides of the argument instead of seeing it as simply fighting. I'm happy to contribute till post 360 if he wants me to ( ^-^ )
Jana
Poland
Anon,
I'm afraid I do not understand your answer, or perhaps it is my fault for not wording the question clearly enough. So here it is again, in different words:
How can I be a guest in Palestine if my family has been here longer than Yasser Arafat?
Hi Jana... well, I like Twosret quite a bit, but I even thought she was out of line in the beginning of this thread, and I told her so.
As to Sarah...
This is from her first comment.
"So go and butt off if you don't like our replies and stop speaking on behalf of us. We are capable of expressing our thoughts and we don't need an Israeli like you to put words in our mouth."
Scorekeeper is almost certianly Armenian, I have no idea why Sarah accused him of being an Isreali. But that comment was the nicest thing she said about anybody in this whole thread.
I don't consider that to be an example of "critical thinking," Jana. I consider it to be an example of bigotry.
You said:
"I don't get distracted by curses."
That's nice, but other people do. Other people do get distracted by insults, get offended by insults, get enraged by insults. Somebody who insults the people they are trying to have a discussion with is doing so because they don't think they can win the argument on the merits.
It's a cheap tactic. It's called flaming, and has been highly frowned upon in online forums for over a decade. Luckily, it seems to be more rare on blogs than it has been in other forums.
I'm not taking a side in this discussion... I learned a long time ago to detach myslef from the problems in Israel/Palestine. I'm trying to be objective here. It's not FAIR to call Scorekeeper/Jokerman/anyone else on one side of the argument abusive, without calling Sarah abusive as well. In my opinion, Sarah was by far the most abusive person in the whole discussion, from start to finish. Every comment she made was abusive.
Anat, picturing it as just a battle between blood thirsty anti semitic absolutist jihady fanatics and peace loving Israelis who just want to be left alone is a great oversimplification and distortion of the whole issue.
Lets go back to more than twenty years ago when Hammas and Islamic jihad didn't even exist, which were still very bloody times though, and what the occupation was fighting inside the west bank and Gaza and in lebanon were very secular left wing, even marxist palestinian groups, so don't tell me that religion had anything to do with the original problem. And although I've answered your question before about your undeniable rights in Palestine, you are completely overlooking the rights of the Palestinians, how do you think the jews became the majority in palestine after 1948? By immigration alone? Wasn't it the terror tactics deployed by the haganah, balmach, irgun and stern gangs that made them escape to Lebanon and Jordan? Why weren't they allowed back to their homes after the war ended? And if they didn't escape, making palestine an arab majority, do you think they would have been left alone? We have a similar situation at hand today, there's a ticking demographic time bomb both in the west bank and gaza, and inside the green line, Sharon's disengagement bought some extra time, but I can't see a way out in the long run to maintain the jewish majority inside the green line within a generation or two, so what's going to happen then? start throwing the palestinians outside? don't deny that there's already some voices in Israel calling for their eventual transfer.
Also, if just peace was the end game for the Israeli governments since oslo started, how do you explain the expansion of the settlments by twofold from 200000 to more that 400000 settlers from 94 to 2000. And coming to the settlers and their umbrellas, kach, shas and kahana khay, could you please justify the rationality of their greater Israel dream, based on their view of god as a real estate developer who gave them this land.
Finally, let me remind you that the most vocal and articulate advocates of palestinian rights aren't the plo or hammas( who are actually harming it) it's christian palestians like Hanan Ashrawy, Azmy Beshara and Edward Said (my hero), and great and wonderful jews like Rabbi Michael Lerner, Norman Finkelstein, Dennis Bernstein and Amy Goodman.
One final quiz, who do you think initialy secretly funded Hammas, if you don't know, I bet Twosret is ready with the answer and the complete references :).
Anonymous at 8:32 and 10:57, although I almost entirely disagree with Anat,could you please tell me how being profane makes you a better person? or how would it gain you any sympathy or win you any argument?
Hello Muhammed,
I appreciate you honest response. There are some points I agree with you and some I don't.
Those I agree:
- indeed I am opposed to creating additional settlements, and in favour of doing in the West Bank the same as Sharon did in Gaza.
I also appreciate the fact that, unlike anonymous and some others here, you don't deny my right to be here. But whose opinion is more common, yours or theirs? (I think you know the answer).
But there are many points in your post that simply don't stand up to historical scrutiny.
How do you mean "who invented Hamas"? I have no idea who "invented" Hamas, but I do know that it is one of many Jihadi movements worldwide and no different from them.
Maybe you don't know that the conflict in Palestine is indeed religious based, and not only in the last twenty years. It started in the 1920s with the foundation of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the Palestinian parallel headed by the Mufti Amin al-Husseini (look him up on the web; you may be surprised). The riots and acts of terror against the Jews continued periodically ever since. Jews on the West Bank, for instance, were completely cleanse-out between 1929 and 1949, including the old communities of Hebron and East Jerusalem.
And it is absolutely not true that the Arabs of Palestine were forced to leave by the Palmach etc. There was war, intiated by Arab countries including Egypt, and some of the Arabs could not take what that entails. But can't you see that many Arabs remained in Israel to this day, where they are equal citizens? In fact, the opposite is true: every area conquered by Arabs, including the West bank, were completely cleansed of Jews, not to mention the expulsion of Jews and the confiscation of their property in all Arab countries, including Egypt.
And if the Palestinian Arabs are so much in favour of peace, why did they decline the Clinton-Barak offer of 2000-2001? That was a full offer of practically all the WB and Gaza, including some of Jerusalem, but they declined it (I know some in the Arab world doubt this offer, but it is very well documented and was put on public map at Taba in 2001. It was exactly what I described above).
Up to that point I was very optimistic on the prospect of peace, but what am I to think of their inexplicable refusal to that Clinton-Barak offer? If the WB Gaza and some of Jerusalem is not what they want, what is it then?
Finally, you mention some extreme right-wing Israelis who would like to expel all Arabs. Muhammed, in a democracy there is no question that all political variants exist; the only relevant question is which of them are ever elected to power by the majority, which those extreme right-wingers NEVER have been in the history of Israel because they simply don't have any sizable support. I wish I could say the same of Hamas in the PA, but I can't. Hamas have recently won local elections in the PA, and apparently heading for even bigger gains.
Anat,
Many reasonable Arabs and Egyptians have been posting our views before on many blogs for people to read but again all what we get is abuse and new versions of history.
In an attempt to make things clear and giving you the benefit of the doubt and point out major misconceptions that you may have and errors in telling history.
Those are quotes from myself and another blogger (they are not cut an paste for a change from sources let us see if you will reason this time or still accuse us of lying) that were posted in reply to the same issues you raised :-
On your right of existance:-
-Not only Mohamed gave you the right to exist but also Arafat in 1988 spoke to the UN, formally recognizes Israel's right to exist, and declares that the PLO renounces terrorism. When Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir infamously declared in 1969, "There are no Palestinians”. Martin Buber, Judah Magnes who was an idealist, a man way ahead of his time. People like the first president of Hebrew University, Hannah Arendt, who realized that there was going to be a clash if the aggressive settlement policies and the ignoring of the Arabs pressed ahead were thinking positively and forward to a solution. David Ben-Gurion actually said, "There's no case in history where a people simply gives up and allows another people to take their territory over." Amazingly enough Moshe Dayan made a famous remark. He said every Israeli town and village had a former Arab occupant. He was able to see it, and he said it.
On Mufti Al-Husseine:-
“What the Imam did is that he used the same adage "enemy of my enemy is my friend" that was being used by Americans and allies when they worked with the Russians in the WW2, later also the US used it when they created Bin Laden Cell and helped the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets and also when they helped Saddam against Iran. The Nazis were fighting the British, French and Jews. Arabs were also fighting the British occupation and the French occupation and the Jewish infiltration of Palestine.
Since you always bring the terrorism thing up, how about historical Israelis terrorism in Dir Yassin, Ibrahimia mosque and many other to refresh your memory. http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/ And how Israeli soldier pointing a gun and shooting a 9 years old girl in cold blood. Let’s not forget that Hussein family lines of rulers are known through the Arab world as traitors. As I also referred in another post of mince to a certain King Hussein of Jordan as being the “Benedict Arnold” of Arab history.”
Peace process:
Clinton and Israeli officials contributed in a documentary about the Barak-Clinton (and Arafat) I think you deny his existence in the negotiations to enforce the image that we don’t want peace. In the documentary Clinton, Albright and Barak admitted to how Clinton catered to the Israeli best interest in this deal and how Clinton had to lie to Arafat about some terms in the peace process (claiming that it is his own verses the truth that it is Barak’s). What a messy deal indeed!
“Oslo's goal was for the PA to police the Palestinian population on behalf of Israeli interests. While some PLO leaders and wealthy Palestinians benefited from the deal, it offered nothing to ordinary Palestinians, and it provided Israel with cover to expand on more Palestinian land and expand illegal settlements in the West Bank.
1980s, The PLO called for a Palestinian state to exist side-by-side with Israel, but he came to realize that this "two-state solution" would never offer Palestinians genuine autonomy. We accept it so far for showing our true peace initiative.”
And If that was true that we don’t want peace why did Arafat sign a peace Agreement with Rabin??
Palestinians were not forced to leave!!!!!!:-
Hold on Anat let me call my children’s great uncle and ask him why he and his family lived under the ground in a convent for a year when the kind nuns took them in hided them to protect them from their guts being ripped apart by Israeli soldiers, let me call my children’s great aunt and ask her why she was born in the convent and her mom was about to die in complications because the Israelis won’t allow a doctor for a woman in labor. YOU MUST BE KIDDING!
Thanks, Twosret. I appreciate your sincerey.
But I don't think what you say about Clinton-Barak stands up to the documented reality. Nor about Oslo, for that matter. The Israeli obligation was to create the Palestinian Authority, which we did. Arafat's obligation was to cease incitement and dismantle the terror gangs, which he did not. On the contrary, he created additional ones like Al Aqsa Martyrs, to counterbalance Hamas and Jihad. Yes, he signed an agreement and made suitable statements. As part of the agreement, it was agreed to implement it by stages. Israel fulfilled the first agreed stages, creating the Palestinian authority. Arafat never fulfilled his part of any stage, as said above.
I don't know the particulars about those refugees you mention from among your relatives. I have no doubt that what they tell of their history is absolutely true. But I wonder if they hid because of anything the Israelis actually DID, or rather because of what they WERE FALSELY TOLD BY OTHER ARABS the Israelis would do. There were some cases of each kind at the time, you know, and disagreement as to how many of each kind. There is no disagreement, however, on the plain fact anything that was done was in the context of a war initiated by the Arabs, including Egypt. Also, there is not disagreement on the obvious fact that each place annexed at that time by Jordan or Egypt was completely cleansed of Jews, as were practially al Jews in all Arab countries. About half the population of Israel are in fact these Jewish refugees and their descendents.
I would like to give an example of the difference between what the Israelis actually do and what the Arabs THINK they do, a difference that exists to this day.
An acquaintance of mine, a fluent Arabic speaker and a scholar of Arab culture and history, once had the task of escorting a group of Egyptian guests on a visit to the Knesset. After the tour, he asked if there were any questions. Yes, they wanted to see "the famous map", as they said. What map? "the map of the zionist plan to take over the Middle East and the world", they said. My friend explained that there isn't and never was any such map, but they did not believe him. He got permission for them to open any door they like in the Knesset and see for themselves, but they said that this is no good because they believed the Israelis would hide the map. How can anyone get at establishing any facts when people so strongly believe in fictitious conspiracy theories? But the power of these theories is such that those believing in them feel obliged to take action against the fictitious threat. Sad.
Hey, Twosret, It's seven o'clock in the morning and we are already into it. So it has occured to me that we two girls certainly have at least one thing in common - we are both early risers. Good. We may get some work done today and achieve something good. My field of work is art history teaching. What's yours?
Twosret, I think I wasn't very clear on the matter of the Arabs refugees, so I'd like to add something.
Unlike Nasser's policy towards the Jews of Egypt, there was never any Israeli policy of expelling the Arabs from Palestine. There was war, initiated by the Arabs, and in the hit of battle different things happened to civilians, both Jews and Arabs, in different places. This is not the same thing as a policy of expulsion.
dear scott, i have read with glee your respone & it assured beyond the realms of the milky way how you are a submental git. first of all you numbskul oaf i didnt start calling names, i expressed my opinion as everyone else till that twosret started calling names cos he/she r so opinionated like yourself. I didnt come to fight but i dont want from one either., & by the way you jerk, jokerman is a Bob Dylan song & has nothing to do with jesters or jokes, goes to prove again what a pathetic flunkie you are.
& another thing, politics is dirty & has always been isnt something new mr boffin, but it is what makes countries whether you like it or not, not people like you..every empire had an evil side to it far worse than than the dismal yanks are now, world & nations simply never revolve around justice & right...get it in your thick skull.
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twosret, i couldnt even continue after reading deir yassin massacres, & you think palestinians didnt commit any massacres either? what about the war in 1948 & arab armies ordering some palestinians out of thier homes & land so they can kill jews only & not harm their brethren or that again didnt happen? hmm, the word history tailoring does jump to mind, it is a common ailment in the middle east alongside other ailments such as hypocrisy & triple talk.
You talk about justice for palestinians, start with your own home turf first.
Jana
You called me a bully & obviously you dont know how it started. I come to this place & express my opinion like everyone else only to be called a name by some idiot for some twisted reason, i reply back & u call me a bully? not so objective is it....these blogs are not to find answers because they simply cannot & will not offer any solution politically´or reveal the naked truth.
the copy & paste can only help those who are casually interested to read a bit & go, but doesnt provide you with 10% facts. You want to solve something, you have to be very knowledgable, intelligent, objective, Neutral & hold discussions with similair others not copy & paste here & think it will make the world better. This blog helps me to find out more about the way ordinary people think, albeit limited sample but still...i dont think it is bullying when i call someone a name who just called me a name, face to face discussions are far better with intelligent people, but here...give me a break pls.
Jokerman,
I think you should have known by now that you are a low life and ignoring you means that I won't stoop down to your level.
Keep ranting over me forever. No more replies from my end.
Anat,
I had a response for you but had to remove it due to verbal abuse. We will continue our chat when I have time.
Thanks,
T.
Jokerman,
I don't care about how you evaluate blogs and readers. You seem like a chauvinist to me that jump on the weakest link. Don't carry out your anger on others in such a cheap way.
All this because someone called you politically immature? are you for real? Is that what you consider people calling you "names" what about your classless, tasteless remarks to Twosret?.
Is that your best performance of civilized discussion? Calling Scott a jerk is your most intellectual, mature term? Well guess what? you proved much worse with your cheap shots than what Twosret said about you.
Geeeez.
Dania-Alabama
Jokerman,
I hope I won't get insulted for my honest opinion. I'm very sorry for your poor choice of conversation. I think you owe Twosret and Scott an apology.
If you use your common sense a bit you could have read this by Highlander "Welcome back to posting we missed you!!!!"
Programmer Craig said "Hi Twosret, I assumed you've been busy because you haven't been very active on the blogs. I've missed you :)"
Reading the above and other comments I have to believe that there was a long period of absence by Twosret. Thus, your poor choice to refer to motherhood, babies, and sexual hints makes me believe I will be next on your list. Your comment doesn’t reflect, fairness or knowledgeable, intelligent, objective, Neutral reader.
I will have to fear having a face to face discussion with you :)
Jana
Poland
Twosret, Dania, Scott, Janah, Sarah and Highlander, how come people like you exist and the world still sucks, it's so refreshing not be outnumbered by SM's usual nut jobs, Papa Ray, yochanan, solomon2, jokerman and the one and only scorekeeper.
Anat, Twosret as usual has covered anything that I could possibly respond to in your response (thanks again twosret ;) ), I'd like only to add a comment or two, about the arab misconceptions and the "famous map" in the knesset is the best example, this thing drives me crazy too, and I had a lot of heated arguments with some know it alls who'd just say "they have a map saying from the nile to the euphrates" with no idea about what they're talking about, I've never said that we didn't have a lot of work to do ourselves, this whole issue was discussed in SM's comments posted on Dec 15.
Now let's come again on what we disagree on, I know nothing about Amin Al Husseiny and I know nothing about the attempted expulsion of jews from 1929 to 1948, although I wouldn't have any problem with it if I had russian immigrants with no ties or roots whatsoever to the land trying to grab my home and land (refer to Twosret's Ben Gurion and Dayan quotes), but you've mentioned this within the context of the expulsion and confiscation of jewish property in Egypt, now this I know is completely wrong, if you know a single incident of a forced expulsion of an Egyptian jew, please reference it, the number of jews dwindled as well as the number of greeks and italians because of the dire economic situation Nasser put the country in, people tend to immigrate from poor to rich countries, yet still some jews stayed and flourished until their death, Mounier Morad the composer, Ignace Tiegerman the great pianist, and Layla Morad the singer (who can deny the amount of sadness felt in Egypt when she died).
Regarding the confiscation of the jewish property, as I've also mentioned before, as a part of his socialist experiment, all wealthy egyptians (regardless of religion) had their land, property and factories confiscated by Nasser and were left with almost nothing, being jewish had nothing to do with it.
And about the equal treatment of arabs inside israel itself, let me quote myself from SM's Dec 15 post,
"I have to revisit the notion about Israel being the democratic equal rights oasis amid a sea of backwardness, because simply it isn't, apart from the occupation, Israeli Arabs there (I mean 1948 arabs) don't have equal rights, from its inception Israel recognized two forms of personal status, ezrahut "citizenship" and leom "nationality or peoplehood", leoms are entitled to supplementary material benefits, ultra ortodox and national religious schools are heavily subsidized, arabs have their own system, segregated and underfunded, whole neighborhoods, even towns are segregated, in a nutshell, a defacto apartheid."
Finally, I'd like to follow up to Twosret's article about Count Brnadot's assassins, they weren't only regarded as heroes in Israel, but one of the conditions of the camp david accord is to hand their remains back to Israel, which upon arrival had a state funeral headed by Begin himself. Twosret, how come you didn't mention the Lavon scandal????????
And you still didn't answer me Anat, what's the solution to the demographic problem approaching, what kind of country do you want? Jewish or Democratic? You can't have both. Do you really think it's fair for a russian jew to immigrate to israel whenever he wishes while a palestinian refugee in lebanon can't go back to his and his parents home in Jaffa?
I had to read all 125 comments ( so far) to try to find where Jokerman got insulted by Twosret ( which seems to be the cause of all this uproar) , and the only plausible cause I found was the reference to him 'politically immature'. I do not consider this an insult, because maybe we do not 'all' know about everything in politics, especially when we do not have the time to search for the answer and just would rather have it handed to us on a platter. (I know that's easier). I was called politically nil once ( not just immature) by a good friend and I did not take umbrage, just saw it as a hint that I should improve my education.
It is also not my job to police SM's comment section ( who as I said before is enjoying all this controversy and people being at each others throat- rabena shayfak wi 3aref ya SM !). However, I thought that things should never get personal, why bring people's life into it ? If someone hands us a piece of information we should not be using it against them.
I believe we should all just stick to the topic as hurling personal insults at each other is not constructive or conducice to any kind of dialogue. Why come to a blog then ? I believe we come to learn from others and to share with them. It is not a contest of who is brightest, most sophisticated, cool or hip. It is easy to throw abuse , but the real challenge is to keep one's dignity sense of modicum, perspective and listen.
Maybe we should just count to 10 before seeing red ?
Thanks Mohamed for your compliment. To quote George Wassouf I will say 'lisa ildunia bikheir'.
I have not seen you post for a while now , where have you been hiding ?
Muhammed,
Thanks for the answer and for those things we agree on.
There are many inaccuracies, I'll mention only some. The Jews murdered and expelled from Hebron in 1929, and others elsewhere, were not Russian immigrants. They were the old local Jewish Community. And even if they were immigrants this would not be justified at all, because almost all the inhabitants of the land, Jews as well as Arabs, are in fact immigrants of the last two hundred years, many much more recent than that. Why do you think UNRWA, by Arab request, define Palestinian refugees as "persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948" (google up UNRWA and see for yourself).
About Amin al-Husseini, you really should know about him. It's important Arab history (google, google).
The Jews of Egypt were all expelled in 1956, and this is a fact. Google up "Bat Yeor" (Hebrew for "daughter of the Nile), the famous scholar.
About the supposed Israeli appartheid, this is totally untrue. When Israel was established in the 1940s, mentioning Nationality (Leom) was common practice in many countries. It is no longer so. I have recently had an Identity Card reissued and no "Leom" is mentioned in it.
Your description of the schooling system is incorrect. Israel has two official languages: Hebrew and Arabic, and accordingly these two languages are official tuition languages in schools according to choice. Naturally, most Arabs want Arabic language schools, but they are not obliged. I personally know Arabs who studied in Hebrew language schools, i.e. Jewish, out of choice. Universities are totally mixed. I have students of all kinds: Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze, you name it.
Now you ask for my opinion of the so-called "demographic" problem. Personally, I don't think there is a problem at all. We are all Israelis, and become ever more so by the year. I'll tell you exactly when this dawned on me. It was some twenty years ago in London, and I was conversing with a local Jew. He suddently said that, in his eyes, my culture and way of thinking are not quite Jewish. What am I then, he asked. To which he answered (and I remember it verbally to this day): "Half-Arab Middle Eastern".
Now to start with I was surprised, because my family is entirely of Jewish-Russian origins, but then I thought (a) This is true. (B) This is the true victory of Zionism. A new culture of neither tradition, but some fresh and hopeful combination with numerous variations. Good.
And I also see that this works both ways. I have heard from local Arabs that other Arabs sometimes call them "Jews" or "half-Jews", just as that man called me "half-Arab". Good.
I know that most people in Israel (Jews as well as Arabs) would not SAY it in this way, but they do ACT AND BEHAVE exactly in this way.
Guys,
I’m very appreciative for this very interesting history debate. Thank you for your efforts and perseverance. I want to note though that the eternal problem (in my very immature political experience) that young Jewish and Arabs is still hung up on the PAST and HISTORY. Obviously, none of you achieved peace by using your two versions of the history or Past references. The same vicious circle and all of you are still spinning.
Reading Twosret (hope she comes back to the discussion table with her outstanding wit), Anat, Muhamed et all, I believe that we all need to move beyond the past for a glimpse of hope in the near future. People of Israel and Palestine have to survive and live. I'm strongly against pointing at each other because there are people guilty on both sides.
Please give me something to read that is a product of 2006 not 1948, 1956,1973......hope I didn't add to your burden or create a dispute. I was ecstatic to see Anat, Mohamed and Twosret converse in such a respectful way and was also very sad to see that others were totally insensitive to an opportunity of two enemies picking each others brain for an exchange of thoughts.
Dave
Jokerman, you are a very cheap guy and is not worth a reply.
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