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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Sunday, February 05, 2006

The Holocaust thing

You know, if this “Cartoon Global Crisis” has made me suspect anything, is that all Muslims seem to be getting some sort of “Talking point memo” that I am not getting for some reason. The reason behind this conspiracy theory is the fact that in all of my many many talks with my people over this Cartoon Global Crisis, they all seem to have the same argument that they are willing to dash out instantly and it goes a little something like this: They will all look at you with one raised eyebrow, and give you this big conspirational look of someone who knows something you don’t or didn’t think off, while they smugly tell you: “Don’t tell me they have freedom of expression in Denmark. Can they run articles that doubt the Holocaust? Huh ? Can they? Huh? Huh?” They tell you this with the assurance of someone who knows that their argument is incredibly solid and can not be disputed, while in reality it’s incredibly stupid, and I shall dispute it right now once and for all because I am sick and tired of arguing about it.

*Note: the Rant below is addressed to the incredibly stupid people who make this argument. Incredibly stupid people, listen up, this is for you.*

Now, I have a question for all of you who question the Holocaust: Have you done research on the Holocaust? Can you prove that it really is a myth? Which books have you read on the topic? What kind of historical research do you base your allegations that the Holocaust didn’t happen on? Or are you just repeating the stuff that you heard other idiots say like a freakin parrot? Yeah, thought so.

And ok, fine, I will bite. Let's say that the Jews are exaggerating the numbers and 6 million of them really were not killed by the Nazis. So how many were killed? 4 million? 3 million? 2 million? What, 6 million Jews killed is a tragedy but 2 million is in the acceptable ok range? Is that what you are saying?

And since we are discussing this, and you are so sure that the Holocaust didn’t happen, can you explain to me why the governments of all of those western countries are prepared to hold the guilt of something as horrible as that when they are not guilty? Do you understand that the reason why they are so opposed to even talk about this issue, is that there is so much blood on many of their hands, and they just want to put the whole thing behind them? Don’t you get that they know that the Holocaust happened, because unlike you and the people you hang out with, they have experienced the Nazis firsthand and know what kind of shit they did? Do you get that concept?

But ok, let’s ignore all of this, and let’s ignore that this is a false analogy that compares apples to oranges (a better comparison would’ve been if the Danish would’ve made a cartoon that makes fun of Moses, which they would in case you are asking), and follow it to the inevitable conclusion: Are you telling me, that if the Danish newspapers would’ve discussed the possibility of the Holocaust being a myth, you would be ok with them drawing cartoons of the Prophet? You know you wouldn’t be, so why are you even making this stupid argument to begin with?

And finally, will you please stop obsessing about the Jews for a minute? Will you just stop dragging them into everything? I mean, the one time that the whole Muslim world gets angry and the Jews had nothing to do with it, and yet you manage, amazingly, to drag them in the middle of it and bring them up! WTF? They had nothing to do with this. Not a damn thing! Why are you talking about them right now? What’s wrong with you people?

Unbelievable!

40 Comments:

At 2/05/2006 03:32:00 AM, Blogger Jacob Mchangama said...

Very good posts, you seem to be a voice of reason amidst a sea of insanity. Your blog (and that of other mid-east dissidents) are helping showing that not all muslims are fanatics (something which has become more difficult to convince people of lately.)

In fact in Denmark we are allowed to deny Holocaust but very few do since that would require ignoring compelling historic evidence.

 
At 2/05/2006 05:20:00 AM, Anonymous Limagolf said...

Very good blog you have here mr. Sandmonkey. It´s nice to see that enlightenment has a foothold somewhere in the Arab world - THAT is very hard to spot from our Northern shores right now!

Jacob Mchangama is right (as he and his co-authors at Punditokraterne often is!), Holocaust denial is legal in Denmark unlike several other European countries. This means that Denmark is a sanctuary for nazis and holocaust deniers in Northern Europe.

Nothing to be proud of, except it demonstrates our commitment to free speech. Next time, you can tell that to the conspiracy theorists.

/Limagolf

 
At 2/05/2006 05:26:00 AM, Anonymous Hanan Cohen said...

Shalom,

There is another side to this. Jews and Israelis use the Holocaust to justify, explain and demand anything and everything because of the Holocaust.

The rational answer to this is not denying the Holocaust but saying "OK, you have suffered. Six Million Jews had been killed, but it was 60 years ago. Now, let's talk rationally on what you want to do or don't want to do and leave the Holocaust aside for a moment".

If the Arab world will take this advice, it will bring the dialogue to a whole different level. A better one.

Best,

Hanan Cohen - Israel
***Love and Peace***

 
At 2/05/2006 05:34:00 AM, Blogger Suzanne said...

@Cohen,

I believe you are right there. I also believe that the reason why the Holocaust is used to justify, explain and demand some things, is because of the fact that antisemitism has not yet faded away. Moreover, it looks like it that it's hidden everywhere and anywhere and especially in societies which seem to be obsessed with Jews in a not positive manner.

Accepting the Holocaust to have happened would be a step forward towards a peaceful and rational dialogue. Both ways.

 
At 2/05/2006 05:51:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'll say it again.

My father's unit liberated a concentration camp in WWII. The stories he told me.....

thinker

 
At 2/05/2006 06:30:00 AM, Blogger Suzanne said...

@Sandmonkey,... I gues you should write these people concerning this:
http://www.arabeuropean.org/

 
At 2/05/2006 07:00:00 AM, Anonymous Karim Elsahy said...

I was confronted with the same exact argument and I think you missed the point SM. It is a real hard question to answer. Also, depending on the source, it is not necessarily a malicious instigation. You’ve seen some of my books and DVD’s. I’ve done my homework. I know the Holocaust wasn’t a myth; I doubt it was exaggerated either. However I can think of no other incident of history for which you can be prosecuted and sent to jail for questioning in many Western countries. And yes, that does serve as an infringement on free speech.

 
At 2/05/2006 07:43:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

Kimo, It's not an infringment of free speech in Denmark. You can question the Holocaust all you want in Denmark. So yeah, in France and in germany those laws may exist, but not in Denmark ya Basha, and I explained in my argument the reason why such laws in those countries exist to begin with. But you know that their point isn;t really about free speech, cause even if there no such laws in europe, they would still be acting as crazy. Not to mention, as I stated, the correct analogy would be with cartoons about Moses, not cartoons on the Holocaust.

Bas sseebak men dah koloh. Kos om el mentality assasan. Ya3ni for the first time el yahood malhomsh da3wah, we bardoh beyla2oh tareeqah yegorrohom we ye7otohom fe west el mawdo3 bardoh. Wlly howa a7nah malnash da3wah, homa el yahood bardoh.

But then again, if I am really to take the devil's advocate role in this, it's like the Muslim population is jealous: eshme3nah el preferntial treatement to the jews and not us? We want special treatment as well. Malnash da3wah. And we are going to burn your flags and cheese till we get it.

a7eih!

 
At 2/05/2006 07:56:00 AM, Blogger rastronomicals said...

hello--

An American Jew here; I've been following the Muahmmad cartoons story all week, and have probably been ahead of the curve as an American on that; it's just over the last two days that CNN and the New York Times have had stories on the controversy. You know us Americans: we only start paying attention when something gets set on fire. :)
First I'd like to say that it has been an enlightenment as an American to read your blog this week. It is a tenet of both the Bush neocons and his opposition that there is a large, democratically-minded, REASONABLE Muslim majority that the US needs to help (or relieve, depending on which side you're on). The only thing is that you can never spot this supposed majority in the news coverage in the US. Some of us have wearily stopped looking for a mjority, and now would be satisfied with the presence of a reasonable democratic constituency at all.

Thank you Sandmonkey, for showing that presence to me. You and your buds at The Big Pharoah and Freedom For Egyptians are the world's best hope. Really.

Now about this holocaust thing. It is of course not illegal to deny the holocaust in America, and every now and again you'll see a story somewhere on some guy or some group who practices just that denial. But it's always presented the same way you would a two-headed chicken, or a cow with five legs: "Look at this fucking freak. . . ."

The idea that many in mainstream Islam--an entire religion--appeal to this argument had been foreign to me, and is quite frankly, scary.

It must be hard for Germany to justify the ban on holcaust-denying publications, but I've always cut them some slack: even 60 years later they've got some heavy guilt to deal with, and they're doing the best they can, right?
Saw the cartoon at
http://www.arabeuropean.org/newsdetail.php?ID=94&PHPSESSID=77e9b35692c26482031cad437a2978eb the Arab European League. Big deal is what I say as an American and as a Jew. The important thing here is I don't say the author of the comic needs to be drawn and quartered, or whatever.
Your work is essential, it seems to me, Sandmonkey.

 
At 2/05/2006 08:26:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I also saw this cartoon at http://www.arabeuropean.org/newsdetail.php?ID=94&PHPSESSID=77e9b35692c26482031cad437a2978eb, and others (including a cartoon of Anne Frank in bed with Adolf Hitler) supposedly giving 'tit for tat' to the world. As a jew and a supporter of Israel in the United States; as someone who lost most of his grandparent's generation to the Holocaust; my overwhelming reaction to these cartoons was ... YAWN. And the thought that Israel need not allocate any more money to public relations.

 
At 2/05/2006 08:30:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Sandy
You are agitated by stupidity, but you must bear in mind that no matter how good you present your case with evidence or without, people just wont listen. I know you will say if one person is convinced then it is enough, but the point is if you look at the grand picture..people dont change easily & the more they are embedded in customs & traditions the more they are likely to listen to any different view.
take it easy mate & try to relax a bit, you wont change the world because those people dont want to be changed. sa3d zaghloul said it before & he didnt say it in vain or out of desperation, it was out of sheer well earned experience.

 
At 2/05/2006 08:34:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

@Hanan Cohen
Shalom,
There is another side to this. Jews and Israelis use the Holocaust to justify, explain and demand anything and everything because of the Holocaust.


Hey Hanan you tell me the Jews
"""""" use the Holocaust to """"" demand """"" anything and everything due to the Holocaust.

I have been around Jewish people my ENTIRE life and have NEVER ONCE heard this NOT ONCE.

I have been to speeches of people who are pro Israel and never once heard it said well due to the Holocaust Israel should get this or that.

Let's see how well this "so-called" OFT USED Holocaust thing is working, eh?

[A] THE UN
created out of the ashes of the Holocaust in order to PREVENT Genocides (ahem)


1) The UN does nothing "for" Israel and is in fact united against it?
2) Passed a resolution against Israel for killing the Doctor of Death, a radical even for Hamas?
3) In 67 it waited until it realized Israel was winning before it said "ok we need to have a cease fire"?
4) The UN passed a resolution against Israel for kidnapping and trying Eichman?

EUROPE
Europe gives no aid to Israel but trades with it. They do nothing today to give special protection to Jews repeatedly attacked in France, Belgium or Germany?
They give millions in aid to the Palestinians and even Hamas?

US
US is the only country with a special relationship with Israel and while it gives aid it also give billions to Arab countries.

???????????????????

The rational answer to this is not denying the Holocaust but saying "OK, you have suffered. Six Million Jews had been killed, but it was 60 years ago. Now, let's talk rationally on what you want to do or don't want to do and leave the Holocaust aside for a moment".

Funny I was thinking the same thing as you! A Palestinian explained this to me.

****The rational answer to this is not denying the (the Palestinian losses in the 48 War) but saying "OK, you have suffered (500-750k lost their homes) but it was almost 60 years ago (and 100 Million others did as well. And the only 'refugees wey're still talking about today are you??)

Now, let's talk rationally on what you want to do or don't want to do and leave (Israel's existence) aside for a moment (the country is not going anywhere!)

Mike

 
At 2/05/2006 08:40:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Besides it is rather annoying and irrelevant for Europeans, I believe, to have holocaust drawn into a discussion about 12 cartoons and should the question ever arise, which it will certainly not, I am 110% (no 230%!) sure the Europeans would rather allow denial of holocaust than deny drawing Mohammed.

 
At 2/05/2006 08:46:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

@Karim Elsahy
said...
I know the Holocaust wasn’t a myth; I doubt it was exaggerated either. However I can think of no other incident of history for which you can be prosecuted and sent to jail for questioning in many Western countries. And yes, that does serve as an infringement on free speech.


Karim -
Don't take this the wrong way. But isn't it pathetic that when an Arab person agrees it occured that that it's actually a "good thing" or like "a concession"?
Almost like I should now show additional deference and credibility to you bcs compared to the rest of the Arab world that still believes 3000 Jooos didn't show up to the WTC on 9-11 you're "ok"?

Karim -
Europe has those laws and that are their laws right or wrong. Funny though its ok that those same laws are used to prosecute people in France for publishing anything that can be construed as "anti-Islamic" or "anti-immigrant" (all Muslims) or "discussing the problems with immigrant integration (predominatel the Muslim immigrants"

These laws are ridiculous. However, that's Europe and I believe there was a trial recently in Britain where a Jewish historian was sued by that joke of a fraud David Irving and got smacked.

Also, I've only met a few Survivors. And I can tell you that they consistently do not want to talk about the hell they lived and laugh when you mention Schindler's List or even the most graphic Holocaust movie you can find. They laugh because they are picnics at Disney World compared to what actually daily went on there. Noone would make it through 5 minutes of an actual re-encactment.

And frankly -
I find the fact that Sandmonkey even has to make this post so ridiculous, pathetic and sad.

 
At 2/05/2006 08:59:00 AM, Anonymous Alaa said...

habibi the worst part is denmark is one of those countries where you are completley free to bash jews, deny the Holocaust, be a freaking Nazi and no one will be able to do anything about.

their anti racism laws are so strictly defined that only an actual call for action against a certain people can be prosecuted, the neo-nazis congregate in denmark because they have more freedom there.

they had members of parliment say on tv that it was a mistake to help jews escape from germany in 1943

the whole fucking argument (which is a non argument to begin with) is mute when it comes to denmark.

but then again not knowing the difference between france and denmark is an integral part of islam these days, it's fucking haram to use your head.

 
At 2/05/2006 09:13:00 AM, Anonymous George Custer said...

Your response to that argument is not so great, mostly because you avoid answering the deeper, more difficult question.

The Incredibly Stupid ask you, is there really freedom of speech in Denmark, on account of the criminality of doubting the Holocaust?

Your response is as follows:
1) The IS have no real knowledge on the arguments of Holocaust doubters.
2) The Holocaust would be a tragedy at much lower numbers.
3) Western governments don't talk about it because they are guilty of participating in the Holocaust.
4) Even if Danish newspapers took part in doubting the Holocaust, the IS would still be upset about the Prophet's negative portrayal.
5) The IS drag the Jews into the middle of every controversy.

So, of course, the burning/destroying/rioting is clearly wrong, but are you saying you'd be okay with it if Europeans Muslims floated a law to make portrayal of the Prophet illegal? You never really answered the question about freedom of speech.

The deeper question is, why is doubting the Holocaust illegal? You only seem to tangentially address this in point (3), but guilt doesn't seem a good enough reason. America is guilty of the persecution of Native Americans, but American freedom of speech allows them to doubt whether the persecution was really so bad, or whether it happened at all.

 
At 2/05/2006 09:37:00 AM, Anonymous Limagolf said...

"... they had members of parliment say on tv that it was a mistake to help jews escape from germany in 1943"

Can you document that? I have never heard of it.

/Limagolf

 
At 2/05/2006 09:40:00 AM, Blogger Daniel in Brookline said...

George Custer:

I thought the Sandmonkey addressed your question already -- why do anti-Holocaust-denial laws exist at all? -- but you seem to think not, so let me jump in there.

The Holocaust was not "merely" the worst outbreak of antisemitism the world has ever known; it was not "merely" the only time a modern, civilized country set out to systematically destroy an entire nation, down to the last man, woman and child. No, it is worse than that... because many people, then and now, firmly believe that Hitler didn't go far enough.

As long as we have people like that, willing to make that point publicly and act upon it, then we are in danger of it happening again. When Germany made it illegal to deny the Holocaust, they were trying desperately to keep people from fanning the flames into life once again.

After all, it is already a permanent stain on the nation of Germany that they caused the Holocaust in the first place. What would it say about Germany if Germans arose to try it again? Germany has strong vested interests from keeping the neo-Nazis silenced. (So do many other European countries, which have their own guilt to consider.)




By the way, I'd argue that cartoons of Mohammad are not quite the same thing as cartoons of Moses -- there's nothing sacred to Jews about the image of Moses, after all. (And believe me, much as Jews venerate Moses, if there's something negative to say about him, we've already said it ourselves.)

I'd say that a closer analogue would be a cartoon depiction of the Jewish God, ordering Jews to do things. (Depicting God, or pronouncing His name, is forbidden to Jews.) Would that cause Jews to riot in the streets? Of course not. (I haven't been able to find such cartoons, although I'm sure they already exist.)

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline

 
At 2/05/2006 10:23:00 AM, Blogger Suzanne said...

I want to add to Daniel that "they forgot to gas you" or "fucking Jew" are swearings still used. Antisemitism has not gone away and I believe those laws exist out of protection in order not to have something happen like more than 60 years ago.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree with the two American Jews saying: YAWN and Big Deal.
By the way, fyi our (in the west) nice Iranian Embassies are still standing and well after the Holocaust seminars by Mr. Ahmadinejad.
;)

 
At 2/05/2006 11:14:00 AM, Anonymous elengil said...

I'd say if Turkey can deny the Armenean genocide and Arafat supporters can deny the Kurdish genocide then you are free to deny the holocaust.

But that would only serve to prove your ignorance.

Here: http://www.teacheroz.com/holocaust.htm educate yourself.

Though I wonder, do you only deny the holocaust becasue you don't like your conscience telling you that it was wrong to kill 6 million Jews?

Well, here's a few more statistics for you that might make it easier to swallow the holocaust as being bad:

The US, that is roundly hated throughout the middle-east for being such die-hard Jew lovers, run by zionist zealouts and a slave to the state of Israel DENIED ENTRY TO untold THOUSANDS OF JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE BEFORE WWII BROKE OUT.
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/evichr.htm

If the US was run by Jews, don't you think we'd have let them all come over?

More than that, if Europe just wanted to export all their Jews to Palestine (as many again claim) then why, in the years before WWII did Brittain, who held the mandate over the region at the time, REFUSE entry by Jews into Palestine,(see link above) but at the same time allowed immigration by Arabs (so the theory that all those palestinians there had been there for countless generations is flat false since immigration records show that Arab immigration to the region *outnumbered* Jewish immigration.

Now lets thing about this for a moment...

why did the Arabs *want* to immigrate to Palestine instead of stay in their ancient homes (as is an argument against why Israel should have existed because it displaced so many from their ancient homes that Arabs are so tied to..)

Two reasons.

One, because the Jewish immigrants had taken baren desert and turned it into a thriving economy and the Arabs had incredibly more opportunities in this region because of the Jewish settlers who *purchased every square inch of land they settled on* from the Arab owners.

Much of palestine was originally owned by absentee landlords who would rent out their land to those actually living on it. So many of the Arabs who lost their homes were not owners of their land to begin with, the land was sold to new owners who wanted to live on their land so naturally the renters had to leave.

Second reason: They were trying to counteract the Jewish immigration by making sure that "everyone knew" that this was Arab land.

So first, the Arabs create the problem of having so many people flooding into the land that the UN divided between two people, and then they further the problem by not allowing any of the Arab/Palestinians to come to their nations to settle after they lost the war, thus it is the Arabs, NOT the Jews, who in fact created the refugee problem and allowed it to continue while Egypt and Jordan controlled the areas, not allowing the inhabitants to either settle into perminant cities, nor allowing them citizenship in the case of Egypt, nor giving them their independance as their own nation.

Back on topic now.

So the world, not just Germany, but the WORLD was guilty of the death of 6 million Jews. Guilty through apathy. Guilty through non-action.

So now maybe you can understand why the world is just a wee bit sensative over the issue, and it has nothing to do with a general love of Jews but from a overwhelming sense of guilt because they *didn't care*

Now, if you think for one second that the US entered the war to save the Jews, wrong again. We entered the war through a treaty with Brittain on one hand, because Japan attacked the US on the other.

If the US had given a damn about the Jews, there were plenty of things that could have been done, even during the war, that would have saved countless lives. Simple things, like bombing the FUCKING TRAIN TRACKS CARRYING THEM TO THE DEATH CAMPS!!!!!!!

But it didn't happen, did it.

So yes, the world has a lot of blood on its hands because of this.

Genocide has happened before, and happened since, and it is just as horrific every time - but this was the only time that it has happened while the world watched and did NOTHING.

The war would never have come to the US and Brittain and Hitler would have succeeded if he had not attacked Brittain. That thought alone makes me sick.




BUT if you STILL don't think the holocaust was real just because it was against the Jews which means it must be fake cause they're just using it to lord themselves over everyone in the world.. right?

THe problem is Jews, at 6 million, only comprise about 1/2 of the total holocaust death toll. Hitler and the Nazi's caused the death of 11 million total through their exterminations.

The only thing that I see that is worth questioning about the holocaust is why do we only remember the Jews who were slaughtered and not the others? Actually, I know the answer to that.. because the others aren't so easy to recognize and because of Europe's history of pursecuting the Jews.

Gypsies were slaughtered also, but fewer people care about them. :(
So were intellectuals, all the hightly educated.
So were homosexuals (and since we still don't want to admit they exist, we won't discuss that they were killed)
Priests and Pastors were killed for their faith.
Now let us not forget all the disabled people who had no place in Hitler's perfect world, put to death like old dogs.
Also, children of one black parent and one white parent were sterilized or executed because again, there was no place for "mixed-breeds" in Hilter's world.
And of course, lest we forget, anyone who was married to a Jew who was not themselves a Jew, they were slaughtered if they did not divorce. And many chose to die rather than send their husbands or wives away.


And don't think that he would have stopped with clensing Europe. Hilter felt that his 'aryan' race was *destined* to rule the world, and he would have slaughtered the Arabs too since your skin isn't light enough and your hair isn't blond and your eyes aren't blue.


So why is it that everyone *is* in fact so concerned about the Jews? Because while all these groups were targeted and sent to the concentration camps, it was reserved for the Jew alone to be systematically slaughtered, every last man, woman, child, either gassed or shot, and while they were waiting to die, they slept on beds of barbed wire or stripped naked and subjected to the most horrific kinds of torture and human experimentation.

Nothing, anywhere in history, can quite compare to the horrific actions against a group of people whose only crime was to believe in the Torah - the first five books of the Bible - follow the laws of Moses and the prophets.


So, you are more than welcome to deny the holocaust, but it will not change the fact. Just like denying the earth is round is fine if you like, but it only proves your *willful* ignorance on the subject.

If you wish to be dumb on purpose, by all means...

 
At 2/05/2006 11:57:00 AM, Anonymous Jameel said...

Listen, any Arab or Muslim who disputes the holocaust is Stupid Stupid Stupid, it simply does not concern us, neither Arabs nor Moslems had any part in it.
However, you are even More Stupid for missing the point everybody is trying to get through your thick skull.
For the last time idiot, the point is not how many Jews were killed, the point is if there is freedom of expression and everything is fare game, why then, is anything related to the holocaust is off limits.

 
At 2/05/2006 12:19:00 PM, Blogger Suzanne said...

Simply because a denial of the murder of Sarah Cohen hurts her survived child David Cohen. According to judicial documents around holocaust denial, it is often stated to be "offensive, insulting" etcetera. I'd believe it is impossible to compare the insult towards David Cohen who lost his mother and which has been denied by person X with a general muslim being offended because a person he thinks is more worthy than him is pictures as a terrorist because of the actions of fellow muslims in the world.

 
At 2/05/2006 12:20:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

the point is if there is freedom of expression and everything is fare game, why then, is anything related to the holocaust is off limits.


IT ISN'T, if you had bothered to read the rest of the answers. Denmark HAS NO LAWS FORBIDDING HOLOCAUST DENIAL.

So the same Denmark that printed those cartoons DOES IN FACT allow you to deny the holocaust.

But as Sandmonkey pointed out, even knowing this, it doesn't make you feel better, does it? Even now that you've been told that in Denmark you can deny the holocaust and not be arrested, you still want to persecute the people who dared to draw Muhammad, don't you.

So once again, Sandmonkey's question of, HOW DID THE JEWS GET INVOLVED IN THIS ARGUMENT AT ALL, goes unanswered.

A DANISH PAPER WROTE THIS, not a Jew, not Israel. SO WHO THE HELL BROUGHT THE JEWS INTO THE ARGUMENT except the Arabs who are so hell-bent on figuring out how to blame them for everythign as per the five sacred rules of the A.P.U.

 
At 2/05/2006 12:23:00 PM, Blogger Suzanne said...

at least that is how i interpreted the cartoon.

 
At 2/05/2006 12:26:00 PM, Blogger Suzanne said...

Anonymous, in some European countrie holocaust denial is forbidden.

Yet indeed, I have no clue how the whole jewish community got dragged into this again.

 
At 2/05/2006 01:44:00 PM, Blogger yochanan said...

You are correct jews have nothing to do with this issue.

If we were involved we would as how come the worst kind of Anti Semitic cartoons are allowed in the arabic press?

Burning an embassy is an act of war. And if the Syrian gov't allowed it than they have taken part in act of war.

 
At 2/05/2006 02:30:00 PM, Blogger Diana said...

Sandm and Karim:

I really don't want to get sidetracked on the Holocaust.

What I'd like to ask is this: do you think the cartoons are being used to divert attention away from the ferry disaster?

 
At 2/05/2006 04:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I say:
-The holocaust happened;
-It was exaggerated;
-Israelis do use it to blackmail Europeans;
-Germans have a problem for having to put up with it all that time;
-Having laws against doubting the holocaust is as stupid as those who are pissed off because of the cartoons of Muhammad;
-Extreme Zionists, much like extreme *anybody* have synthesised history; specially that related to Palestine;
_Arabs do have serious problems because they have to bring up *Jews* in every sentence.
_What The SandMonkey is saying is not an indicator of hope left in the area.
_Islamists suck.
_Israel is the enemy.
_You can use the crime of *anti-Semitism* only against Europeans, Americans, Han, Maori, but you CANNOT use it against Arabs because it doesn't make sense.

 
At 2/05/2006 05:31:00 PM, Anonymous Ashish said...

I have a post that talks about European hypocrisy about freedom of expression. I did not say anything against the Danish government because I was not sure whether they have any laws against denying the holocaust.

This is not to justify the violence by the Islamists. The torching of the embassies and the threats against the cartoonists are criminal in nature. Period.

The point about European hypocrisy is correct though. If they wanted to support a true freedom of expression then they would not make any exception based on specific community or historical fact. Period.

 
At 2/05/2006 07:47:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I still don't see how the mohammed cartoons can be compared to being allowed to deny the holocaust.One is mocking a prophet (in jest),while the other is denying reality.

elengil,I don't know where you get your facts,but...they're absolutely correct! The US knew about the death camps but did nothing about them til the end of the war.It just goes to show that no human government is perfect,although the US is the greatest country on earth,in my opinion.

 
At 2/05/2006 08:00:00 PM, Anonymous raisinchaser said...

raisinchaser,

To those of you who argue that Muslims had nothing to do with the holocaust...I give you Grand Mufti Husseini...

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

 
At 2/05/2006 10:01:00 PM, Anonymous George Custer said...

It seems like most people in favor of Holocaust denial laws believe there are only two possibilities when thinking about the Holocaust: you either believe in everything that is commonly held to be true, or you doubt the whole thing.

Is there no middle ground? Is it not possible to believe that the Holocaust occurred, that Jews and others were systematically tortured and killed, but out of a desire for historical accuracy, to still want to review the evidence and come up with a possible alternate version of history? If the facts are so clear, won't the people of Germany easily be able to decide which version is correct? Why do the proponents of these laws give the intelligence of Germans and Europeans so little credit? If someone tells you he has evidence that the Spanish Inquisition never happened, do you imprison him? No, you let him spout his insane theories and let the people decide.

How is that the book is closed on this chapter of history, and everything that is already written should be believed to be 100% correct? Is it because, as Sandmonkey pointed out, it would be a crime at any number? So, if a serial killer murdered 10 people, and some newspaper writes that he murdered 40 people, should there be no attempt to correct him because it's a crime at any number?

Is fear of another tragedy a good enough reason to prohibit critical historical analysis of the Holocaust? No. Fear is the reason any institution would want to restrict freedom of speech, but the reason we don't restrict freedom of speech is because such restrictions are the facilitators of such terrible tragedies. Laws can be created to prevent the consolidation of power, to guarantee human rights, trial by jury, representation by the people. To prevent another Holocaust, a restriction of freedom of speech is not necessary, and probably not sufficient, anyway.

 
At 2/05/2006 10:29:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

custer, the Nuremburg trials were over 50 years. That's where the evidence was presented, and the verdicts rendered. That's where the denials were presnted, and dismissed. This is all in the past. Do you *really* think that the evidence today is somehow better and more complete than it was *at the time*!?

Or would you like to go one step further, and now that most of the witnesses (and perpetrators) are dead, and the memories of those who aren't are vague and imprecise... NOW you want to re-try the whole genocide and come to a different conclusion?

I have to say, Custer, I'm deeply suspicious of your motives, or the motives of anybody who wants to "re-examine" the holocaust at this late date.

 
At 2/05/2006 10:59:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

How is that the book is closed on this chapter of history, and everything that is already written should be believed to be 100% correct?

I agree. Lets revisit history. I suggest with start with 600 or so AD. Lets revisit whether the revelation to Mohammad was real or was exaggerated. Lets have witnesses come forward and ask them to prove that it really was Gabriel that brought him a revelation, or if maybe he just made it up to feel important.

Lets reexamine the evidence over whether the Qur'an is true at all and whether it *really* superceeds the Bible. I for one, want to hear the evidence.

When you've done that, then I'll agree to revisit the evidence of the holocaust with you and be totally impartial.

*grin*

 
At 2/06/2006 12:57:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quote:
"Eleven million precious lives were lost during the Holocaust of World War II. Six million of these were Polish citizens. Half of these Polish citizens were non-Jews"

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/

Where did we loose the 5.2 million non-jewish people who lost their lives in the holocaust in this discussion?

 
At 2/06/2006 01:02:00 PM, Blogger Melantrys said...

"Why do the proponents of these laws give the intelligence of Germans and Europeans so little credit?"

Easy. Because the kind of people who deny the holocaust or want the "evidence re-examined" aren't interested in the truth. They want to belittle the crimes of the past. And as if that wasn't enough they'd love to repeat those crimes.
The people denying the holocaust aren't serious historians or similar. They are nazis.

Also, there is no credit to give to some people's intelligence. There are always those who happily listen to any moron declaiming in a loud voice and with a hint of charisma. Society is too full of people of the "Of course I'm having no problem with foreigners; I just don't want my daughter to marry one." type to afford to have people spread their filth to an unthinking audience.

By forbidding the denial of the holocaust we are able to punish today's nazis for trying to create a blank slate to start with all over again.

And don't think that today's nazis are overly bothered by Jews when having a new enemy constantly presented to them, the evil, evil Arabs.

Wouldn't you like it to be illegal for me to, for instance, publicly state everywhere I go that the US never killed any Arab civilians in their war efforts in the ME?

And as Programmer Craig said, the evidence has already been examined and been rejected or taken into consideration quite a long time ago.
It is fact. History. Nothing to be proud of, but nevertheless true.

 
At 2/09/2006 06:25:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>Now, I have a question for all of you who question the Holocaust: Have you done research on the Holocaust?

i read my first 'holocaust' (it wasn't called that then) memoir - reska weiss's 'journey through hell' while still at primary school before the theme was particularly pushed in the media and i was pretty much a 'true-believer' up until just a few years ago. since taking a more skeptical interest (as part of a wider study of propaganda and mind-control), i've probably accumulated three or four thousand thousand articles on the subject. i don't consider myself an expert.

>Can you prove that it really is a myth?

the term 'holocaust' encompasses a wide range of allegations, some true, many mythical. for instance, while the deportation of jews and others to concentration camps happened and is well documented; 'gas chambers' are a myth as proven by germar rudolf and others.

> Let's say that the Jews are exaggerating the numbers and 6 million of them really were not killed by the Nazis. So how many were killed? 4 million? 3 million? 2 million? What, 6 million Jews killed is a tragedy but 2 million is in the acceptable ok range? Is that what you are saying?

this is an old canard, best answered in the following libertyforum thread, i didn't write it (but i wish i had):

-----------
>>>Is 4,000,000 a hoax but 1,500,000 acceptable?

>>If I told my insurance company someone stole $4 million from me and it turned out to be $1.5 million. I was still robbed of the $1.5 million so there should be no problem, right?

>Here's a better analogy:

Your house was robbed by Hans Schmidt. He stole $150,000. You file a complaint report that the amount stolen was $6,000,000. You also claim that Schmidt murdered your grandmother, who actually had died of old age.

So Hans is sentenced to death for murder, by a court consisting exclusively of YOUR friends, and the court makes you an award of several BILLION dollars, punitive and compensatory, to be paid by Schmidt, Schmidt's heirs and extended family, everyone named Schmidt throughout the world, and the neighbours who stood by and did nothing when Schmidt allegedly murdered your grandmother.

Then you go on to use the "mental trauma" defense as a justification of kicking Abdul out of his house, expropriating his goods, and murdering his grandmother.

And while you are doing this, you seek to discredit, imprison, and otherwise ruin any investigative reporter who attempts to research the original alleged crime.
-----------

>And since we are discussing this, and you are so sure that the Holocaust didn’t happen, can you explain to me why the governments of all of those western countries are prepared to hold the guilt of something as horrible as that when they are not guilty?

venality of the political class, ignorance of the masses (they've been brainwashed for 60 years) and fear amongst intellectuals (60 years after the fact you still go to jail in germany for asking questions).

> unlike you and the people you hang out with, they have experienced the Nazis firsthand

and what do YOU know about nazi germany first-hand? (documentaries on the discovery channel don't count)

>Are you telling me, that if the Danish newspapers would’ve discussed the possibility of the Holocaust being a myth, you would be ok with them drawing cartoons of the Prophet?

i think, sadly, that moslems will have to get over it, as must also the jews -- there are bigger issues at stake.

 
At 2/09/2006 10:30:00 PM, Anonymous Abby said...

Thank you! Your rant made me happy. I like to feel reassured that other sane, rational, non-idiot people exist in the world.

 
At 3/06/2006 10:58:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It seems the Islamists are pushing for a nuclear confrontation with the West. Why does the president of Iran call for the destruction of Israel and agressively try to obtain nukes?

Well, news flash folks, even if Iran does get nukes, do they really think they can use them against Israel, the U.S. or another Western country without consequence?

Unfortunately perhaps the Islamic world needs to suffer it's own holocaust in order for them to develope an appreciation for how destructive their own hateful antisemitic behavior is.

I bet a nuclear attack on Tehran killing six million Iranians would give them a different perspective on the atrocities that the Jews suffered under Hitler. I hope it never comes to that, but if the Islamic world continues to agitate, that is where the logical conclusion of their destructive hateful behavior will lead them.

Anonymous
Washington, DC

 
At 5/24/2006 03:18:00 AM, Blogger Jasonmark said...

http://happy-holocaust-story.blogspot.com/

 

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