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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Thursday, December 15, 2005

The leader of the MB calls Israel "a Cancer"

Ahmeddinjad, you have found your soulmate: CAIRO - Israel is a "cancer" in the Middle East and its peace deal with Egypt should be submitted to a referendum, the leader of Egypt's Muslim Brothers said in an interview published Thursday. "I declared that we will not recognize Israel which is an alien entity in the region. And we expect the demise of this cancer soon...," Mohammed Mehdi Akef told the state-owned English language Ahram Weekly. Egypt signed a peace agreement with Israel in 1979, becoming the first Arab country to establish diplomatic ties with the Jewish state. Islamists opposed to the deal assassinated President Anwar Sadat in 1981 for signing the Camp David accord and opposition to the normalisation of relations with Israel remains strong in Egypt. Akef stopped short of demanding the peace agreement be scrapped but suggested it should be submitted to a popular referendum. "That is for the people to decide... If I had the power I would put it to the people," he said. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone involved, since the MB palestinian branch is known by a different name altogether. That name is Hamas. It's a little known fact, but MB members founded this movement. Fantastic, no?

70 Comments:

At 12/15/2005 06:56:00 AM, Blogger Jordan said...

Oh Ahmeddinjad, you so crazy!

I don't care what you say SM, Ahmeddinjad is still the sexiest Iranian President ever and I will not let your right-wing zionist paranoia take that away.

As a jew living in hick-town Canada, I would really love to know the extent of jew-bashing in the Arab/Iranian world. Is it just used by politicians as a means to avoid questions like "why are we still poor" or do the people themselves really believe this pro-nazi garbage?

Its kinda funny, because when Politicians in Alabama are asked the same tough questions, they give a simular response except replace the word "jew" with "gay".

My persian girlfriend says that although she was forced to scream out "death to israel" while in Iran, she says that the people actually LOVE american AND israel for no other reason than because their government tells them to hate it.

I should mention that my gf is a bit on the "liberal" side... she has been dating a jew for over a year now and not one single jihadist attempt has been made on my life. (even my Jewish ex-girlfriends didn't make it this long without atleast 1 attempt!)

So I am guessing that she hung out with like-minded liberals while in Iran... you know, the ones who only wear the burka when they are drunk, naked, and lost a bet

What do you think SM, is there a alot of Jew Bashing in Egypt or is it just an obvious Red Herring?

 
At 12/15/2005 07:19:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

I wish it were a red herring, but it's not. Thanks to years of Anti-IsraelNasser propaganda that got emulated by the eladers that came after him to make their people focus on an enemy other than them, the people of egypt have become truly anti-semetic. It also doesn;t help that many islamic preachers keep mentioning that "you can never judge a jew" , "they are the sons of pigs and monkeys" and "they break every deal and promise they make and will always betray you". So, yeah, anti-semtism jew-bashing is pretty freakin high where we at. I remember that a few years ago, the egyptian populace was so ecstatic over this new TV series called "a knight without a horse" that the jews worldwise condemned for mentioning "the Protocols of the elders of Zion" and stating that it was a fact. People wanted to see this show because they wanted to see "Mohamed Sobhy (the actor) beating the jews".

A better indication is "The Passion of the christ". Huge amounts of Muslims promoted seeing this movie, not because they liked Jesus, but because, in their eyes, showed the evil true nature of the Jews. The movie was a huge hit in Egypt man, with more muslims seeing it than christians. I guess that's what the ADL was afraid of when it was fighting this movie, you know?

 
At 12/15/2005 07:19:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

correction : it's "you can never trust a jew"

 
At 12/15/2005 08:11:00 AM, Blogger Jordan said...

Well, I don't know about any of you but I know I feel better :)

Crap! I guess I can cross out Egypt for my honeymoon. Thats ok, I was hoping to travel around France in rented car anyways!

 
At 12/15/2005 08:14:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Sandman thanks.
I put up a post on this. Check it out.
http://dailyscorecard.blogspot.com/2005/12/brotherhood-hate-of-israel-left-wing.html
Everything here -
a) Post has excellent info
b) Your comments prescient and 'on point' as usual.
c) Typical coddled left wing Jew displays his PBS, CBC neighborhood group think "version" of the world.

 
At 12/15/2005 08:28:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

2 more things -

1) Knight without a Horse I thought was actually based on the Protocols, not just mentioned them.
2) Do check out my post.

 
At 12/15/2005 09:43:00 AM, Blogger Jordan said...

scorekeeper, get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "sarcasm". (geez)

Oh, and I might be a left wing jew who enjoys the occasional episode of "Masterpiece Theater" on PBS, but I RESENT the fact that you refer to me as "coddled".

I have never been "coddled" in my life! Even during the crucial first three years after birth where coddling could have been really useful for my character development :)

Scorekeeper, get some coffee!! You don't know what you are saying!

And SM, keep up the great work.

 
At 12/15/2005 09:48:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

It is possible I 'mis interpreted' or 'over interpreted'.
However -

Its kinda funny, because
when Politicians in Alabama are asked the same tough questions, they give a simular response except replace the word "jew" with "gay".


Any details on this? or just pontificating in general? Implication the subhuman hate in the Arab world is somehow equivalent to the 'gay bashing' in the US... let alone the Arab world.

What do you think SM, is there a alot of Jew Bashing in Egypt or is it just an obvious Red Herring?

Or is it an OBVIOUS RED HERRING. Ummmm, can't misinterpret that.

 
At 12/15/2005 09:50:00 AM, Blogger Egypeter said...

God...it really sucks how lousy my country can be!! To be honest, it's actually pretty damn embarassing. As much as I love certain things about Egypt it has some SERIOUS SERIOUS freakin' issues..and the sad part is it seems to be getting worse :(

 
At 12/15/2005 10:10:00 AM, Blogger Jordan said...

I meant "obvious" as in the people themselves realize that the douchbag politicians are using the whole "jew excuse" again as to why they are such bad leaders. And it was a question, hence the "?"

As for the gay bashing, I know this is racists but I do expect better from America than a curropt police state.

I don't see it being equivlant to the situation in the Arab world at all!! As far as I know, gay Americans aren't fleeing to Cuba to avoid being "honor killed".

Scorekeeper, I am Mr. Zionist! Why the hell do you think I spent all that time at that "Zionist Training Camp" in Montreal? To meet Chicks?

Egypeter, I went to Egypt before the intefata during my bar-mitzvah in Israel.

I was really moved by the beauty but saddened by the poverty and open curroption.

I remember a pretty young girl, maybe 10 years old, smiling as she begged for money in Caro... it was one of the saddest things I have ever seen.

Man, thank g-d for pro-diversity westearn secular neo-liberal capitolism...

I really hope we get over our post-colonists guilt and maybe start promoting our values again before the Muslim Brotherhood, Hizballa, and Islamic Jihad completely take over.

 
At 12/15/2005 10:27:00 AM, Blogger Papa Ray said...

Don't feel too bad guys, there is hate enough going around in the rest of the "free" world to make you not look so bad.

The Aussie's are just now letting their hate and racism show a little. American's hide theirs pretty good, but racism is alive and doing very well in America.

In fact it might come out in a big way soon. Like when there is another big killing of Americans.

It is also coming out because of all the illegals coming over our southern border, like millions each year.

Its tough, when you are a WASP (white person) and you are told you can't have a job unless you speak mexican. Its tough when you see everyone else getting "special considerations" and you don't' because your white.

Its tough, when they can have classes in public schools on Islam, but not Christanity.

Its tough, when colleges can have rallies and conferences on Islam, but not Christanity.

Its tough, when high schools and colleges don't want military recruiters but teach anti-american and anti-government to American kids.

Just wait and look for it. Its coming to you all in living color with surround sound, soon, direct from the good ol' USA.

And we will do it up right, it will make the riots and unrest in the rest of the world look like kid stuff.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

 
At 12/15/2005 11:24:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Sandmonkey,
Although I'll once have to agree with everything you said about the level of anti semitism in Egypt, I think we shouldn't confuse absolute anti semitism with opposition to Israeli occupation and brutal methods, a line blurred by most Egyptians by the way, who tend to think of jews and the occupation as one. It's quiet unfair to equate honest and warranted criticism of Israel to anti semitism, in fact doing this in itself is a disservice to any fair minded jew (usually they tend to be left wing and watch PBS), making Israel one of the few countries whose actions go with absolute legal and moral impunity. Also to be fair to Egyptians, they haven't been always like that, there was a time as recent as the mid fifties when, to the majority of Egyptians, being a jew was a non issue, which wasn't the case in Europe or the US.
Jordan, if you come to Egypt for your honey moon, no one will touch you, I bet you that you'll meet an Egyptian or two who'll start bad mouthing the Palestinians once he knows you're jewish, Egyptians are just too hypocritical or call it polite or nice, to express their real feelings.

 
At 12/15/2005 11:56:00 AM, Blogger Jordan said...

"making Israel one of the few countries whose actions go with absolute legal and moral impunity"

Israel has the absolute hands down best human rights record in the middle east and treats muslims better then Arab countries! (turkey gets the coveded runner-up award)

It is the only country where moslem women can march in the Gay Pride Parade while at the same time serving as an elected leader in a fully domacratic government!

I am not going to defend everything Israel has ever done (man, what the hell were we thinking when we built those stupid settlements after 67... damn ultra-nationalist torah-thumping jerks!), but compared to other countries that have to deal with Islamic terrorism, Israel is actually pretty damn good!

Besides, the idea that Arabs/Iranian leaders will acknowledge that the Holocaust is not a "myth" once the Palestinians are given the freedom to become their own Islamic Police state is crazy!!!

I am not defending the occupation, I am just saying that the idea that 300 million arabs actually give a rats ass about Palestinians (who are not welcome in any Arab country except Jordan) is insane.

The President of Iran couldn't care less about the PEOPLE of Palestine, he just hates jews. The fact that Iran will give a billion dollars to finance child suicide bombers but give NOTHING to build schools and hospitals should be a good indication of their intentions.

 
At 12/15/2005 12:13:00 PM, Blogger Egypeter said...

Mohamed - I only wish what you are saying is totally true...but anti-semitism is alive and well in Egypt. Sure there was a time in Egypt when being a Copt or a Jew was a non-issue but those days are LONG gone. Their is absolutely no denying the rise of intolerance in Egypt to all things non-Muslim and, to be honest, I wouldn't recommend that Jordan and his Iranian girl honeymoon in Egypt (unless you go to Sharm)...btw, I think it's pretty damn awesome that you two are together :)

"Also to be fair to Egyptians, they haven't been always like that, there was a time as recent as the mid fifties when, to the majority of Egyptians, being a jew was a non issue, which wasn't the case in Europe or the US."


You mention in the 50's how it may have been better to be a Jew living in Egypt than in Europe or the U.S. I dispute the U.S. claim but obviously if you are talking about Nazi Europe's treatment of the Jews in the 40's...sure the Egyptians treated their Jewish community better...at least until Nasser kicked them out and stole their property. As far as the U.S. they liberated the Jews and also had many of them fighting in their Armed Services. Another point that needs to be made is that America and Europe have since figured it out while Egypt is moving in the OPPOSITE direction. There used to be tolerance in Egypt but now there isn't. There used to be intolerance in Europe and America and now there isn't...I'm not saying anti-semitism doesn't exist in the west but it sure is a hell a lot more fierce in the Arab world...I don't think too many people would argue that point.

I hope things change...chances are nil though if the Brotherhood come into power...they're starting to sound a lot like that jerk Ahmadinejad...kinda scary!

 
At 12/15/2005 12:33:00 PM, Blogger Jordan said...

Egypeter, i wish you and SM weren't so honest and critical of your country... it really is sad to hear this from such a good people!

Is there anything that can be done to help? Should we be airing "The Daily Show" or "Seinfeld" in arabic?

Its interesting, in Canada I just take it for granted that I will never be insulted or attacked because I am a jew. It never happened to me once!

And in fact, on the rare occasion when a jewish school is burnt, muslims are the first to stand by our side.

Maybe its just too hot in the middle east!!! :)

Oh, and Mohamed, sorry I went all "Israel is a diverse democracy" on your ass...

I have to remember to take my ritilan with my morning Cheereos or I am zionists-bitchy all day!

 
At 12/15/2005 12:47:00 PM, Blogger yochanan said...

The Iranians call me a 'monkey and a pig' the question I have am I a monkey on even days and a pig on odd days or is it the other way around? I have to tell the wife what to make for dinner?

 
At 12/15/2005 01:35:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Egypeter,
You're just reiterating my point, that Egypt was a more tolerant country vis-à-vis Europe for the last 1000 years, and sorry, not the form of tolerance you've mentioned that we were a little better than the Nazis, we were more tolerant than the west period, maybe I was only wrong about the time line, ok, not the mid fifties, maybe the early fifties, and by the way, not only the jews had their property and money confiscated by Nasser, most wealthy Egyptians had it too, my grand father was left with nothing.
I've never denied the current rise in prejudice and bigotry in Egypt, I'm just saying that it wasn't always that way.
As for Jordan comments, I won't defend any of the Arab countries, but I have to revisit the notion about Israel being the democratic equal rights oasis amid a sea of backwardness, because simply it isn't, apart from the occupation, Israeli Arabs there (I mean 1948 arabs) don't have equal rights, from its inception Israel recognized two forms of personal status, ezrahut "citizenship" and leom "nationality or peoplehood", leoms are entitled to supplementary material benefits, ultra ortodox and national religious schools are heavily subsidized, arabs have their own system, segregated and underfunded, whole neighborhoods, even towns are segregated, in a nutshell, a defacto apartheid.
Also about it being the only country in which a moslem woman can be democraticaly elected into office, doesn't it really seem strange to you that in any moslem country where a free election is held they almost always elect a woman, from secular Turkey, to nutty Pakistan, here's the list:
Tansu Chiller in Turkey, Benazeer Bhuto in Pakistan, Khalda Dia in Bangladesh (they only elect women there) and Megawaty Sukarno in Indonesia.

 
At 12/15/2005 01:36:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's up with the "Alabama" stuff?

Israel couldn't have stauncher supporters or stronger friends in the US Congress.

As for gay bashing, you're sadly misinformed, jordan.

And don't even think of the race card. Alabama is a highly integrated society.

It’s one of the better kept secrets in America because it keeps people like you from wanting to move there and that’s a real plus.

 
At 12/15/2005 02:29:00 PM, Blogger Twosret said...

"Israel has the absolute hands down best human rights record in the middle east and treats muslims better then Arab countries! (turkey gets the coveded runner-up award)"

Israel's record of aggression, torture, occupation, and injustice proves the above statement wrong.

An Israeli only can utter such B.S. on the internet but muslims in the occupied land will say the exact opposite!

Jordan, get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Intifada". (geez)

Israelis will only gain respect when they give people their rights and Palestinians are treated equally.

Finally, Jordan you are full of crap with an enphasis on big capital Crap.

 
At 12/15/2005 03:02:00 PM, Blogger Freedom for Egyptians said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 12/15/2005 03:03:00 PM, Blogger Freedom for Egyptians said...

Hey SM,

This is almost the same topic but different angle.
http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2005/12/iran-is-not-only-intimidating-israel.html

 
At 12/15/2005 03:57:00 PM, Blogger Crazy Girl said...

LMAO.....

"Alabama is a highly integrated society."

LMAO... all I can say!!! (falls of the chair laughing) LMAO

 
At 12/15/2005 08:38:00 PM, Blogger Jordan said...

Man, I just can't get any love around here.

First I am critised for not being zionist enough, then for taking a pot shot and Alabama's world famous progressive culture, then finally for being too zionist!

They told me it would be this way in Zionist Training Camp... I didn't want to believe them :(

oh, here we go...

"It’s one of the better kept secrets in America because it keeps people like you from wanting to move there and that’s a real plus."

Actually, I think its the lack of a functional economy that keeps people like me from not being there :)

i swear I chose "Alabama" at random... what are the chances that the one literate guy from Alabama with an internet connection is a fan of SandMonkey?! (ok, last low blow at Alabama's expense... i swear)

"Israel's record of aggression, torture, occupation, and injustice proves the above statement wrong."

Nope, I am afraid it still true.

Your not going to believe this, but several (all) nations have some type of injustice. The secret in not being jewish or american, that way no one notices! (lucky china.. they get away with everything!)

And I don't think fighting terrorism has ever made a country look good.

But unfortinately, there are 22 Arab states and just by shear coincedence, 22 Arab police states. (Jordan and Yemen are not too bad though... hey we have to give credit for trying!)

Thus putting Israel in top spot for diversity, education, freedom, and tolerance... if only by default!

An Israeli only can utter such B.S. on the internet but muslims in the occupied land will say the exact opposite!

I'm Israeli?! Well, that would explain my excessive back hair! (true story, the lazer that made my back silky smooth was made in israel)

Actually, not only will they say the exact opposite, some will say their fondness of Hitler's Mein Kamp (still a best seller) and how much they are looking forward to Iran nuking the hell out of us!

Jordan, get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Intifada". (geez)

Hey, now you are being a jerk by ripping off a line I used to make another guy look like a jerk!

Israelis will only gain respect when they give people their rights and Palestinians are treated equally.

Ok Ok... you win! The jews will move to occupied New Orleans. Then Hamas and Islamic Jihad will transform Palestine into a diverse rule-of-law democracy!

(hey, it could happen)

Finally, Jordan you are full of crap with an enphasis on big capital Crap.

Can't we have one debate where the token zionist is not reffered to human extrament?!

Well thats it for me SandMonkey, thanx for giving me something to do on this dull thursday!

 
At 12/16/2005 06:47:00 AM, Blogger Mike_Nargizian said...

I'm glad (I'll take credit for it :-)) I kicked off a great thread here which even included a comment from Freedom for Egyptians (who is great!). Mohammed, Papa Ray and Jordan, I will comment in a few, gotta get to the office when maybe I'll have 20 minutes to read and comment.

Mike (scorekeeper)

 
At 12/16/2005 06:56:00 AM, Blogger Mike_Nargizian said...

twosret
Israelis will only gain respect when they give people their rights and Palestinians are treated equally.



So why is ANY---------------- Arab or Muslim country given a dime's worth of respect? You want to use that line of bullshit one way logic than let's use it! Yeah Arabs are not 100% or even 85% equal within Israel... but they're 10000x better off than in an Arab country.... (you want the quotes?).....
NOW LET'S COMPARE KURDS, JEWS, ARMENIANS, TURKOMEN, SHIA, ETC..... in any Arab country?
Or HOW ABOUT COOPTS?

You want to continue down this bullshit path, please let me know. I'll be more than happy.
Let's take out the mirror and use the same standards in reverse.

 
At 12/16/2005 07:01:00 AM, Blogger Mike_Nargizian said...

TWOSRET
Jordan, get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Intifada". (geez)


Yeah, look it up... like as in it being a pre planned event that Arafat wanted. Like in all the proof that has emerged of this fact now. As in Dennis Ross stating the offer Arafat had in his freekin hands in December of 2000 in the White House.

As in the Pali senseless war to destroy Palestinian and Israel life and in the process destroy the deluded Israeli left Peace Camp, btw!!

THAT'S WHAT THIS IS... BCS BUILDING A STATE IS 1000X HARDER THAN DESTROYING ONE.

 
At 12/16/2005 10:10:00 AM, Anonymous Nonie Darwish said...

The truth is that Arabs trust Jews more than they trust themselves and each other. That is the core of the problem. That is why they hate Jews, because they cannot stand seeing anyone living a better life in a democracy despite of all the boycott and war we have done to that small nation. When will Muslims start having tolerance to other minorities??? instead of jealousy, envy, pride, shame and paranoia.

 
At 12/16/2005 10:32:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Let me start with the most striking comments, not the order they were left in.

Mohammed
It's quiet unfair to equate honest and warranted criticism of Israel to anti semitism, in fact doing this in itself is a disservice to any fair minded jew (usually they tend to be left wing and watch PBS), making Israel one of the few countries whose actions go with absolute legal and moral impunity.
This almost memorized "cant" is NAUSEATING already. Let's dissect this complete bullshit.
1) We were talking about the Muslim Brotherhood blatantly CALLING FOR GENOCIDE - playing of a hugely popular movie that is beyond even racism, it's FIN SICK IN THE HEAD.

2) "without impugnity"? REALLY?
Israel is singlehandedly cornered and outcast at the UN which was FOUNDED based on the extermination of the Jooooos. They can't serve on committees, they can't serve on the Security Council and the Maden David, which has saved people all over the world, can't be recognized due to Arab anti-semitism.

3) Sudan IS committing mass Genocide RIGHT NOW. Tens of thousands are being SLAUGHTERED driven out of the country by the gov't and gov't backed militias. The Northern Arabic backed/affiliated Muslims are slaughtering the Southern African Muslims and Christians. HOW MANY UN SEC RESOLUTIONS HAVE THERE BEEN ON THIS??? NOT ****** 1 ******
The UN Human Rights Committee, which Sudan, China, Cuba and Zimbabwe are MEMBERS of.... couldn't even pass a condemnation of this... they (after a huge fight literally!) passed a whitewashed mealy mouthed Resolution that did nothing and didn't even condemn Sudanese Gov't?

4) Israel has more foreign reporters per capita including Al Jazeera, Al Arabiya etc... than ANY country in the world! They have the 3rd most total in the world, only to the US and Russia. Israel is the size of New Jersey, not counting the Desert, Rhode Island.

5) Israel has a fully free and open press, Human Rights Groups, lawyers for murderers like Barghouti, and has received SPECIAL attention by the US "World Court" which ruled OUT of its jurisdiction just specially "for" Israel and has received more 1 way special condemnations from the Security Council than any country on the planet.
When they eliminated the "Preacher of Death" and then the "Doctor of Death" from Hamas, the Security Council held an "Emergency Meeting" the next Monday to condemn Israel but not mention 1 word about Hamas or its terrorist operations.
In 5 years of REAL (not fairly tale Arab exagerration) GENOCIDE in Sudan, the UN Security Council and Koffi Annan have done NOTHING!.

Now what was that bullshit about Israel's "impugnity"?

Let me tell you something the suicide bombings the Arab world have been cheering for for a decade now against Jews and Americans, are now coming back right up their ass! And now suddenly they're "aghast" at this "sickness"~!

The unbelievable hypocrisy and phoniness of the Arab world in its "aghastness" of Israel's defending itself is going to come back and bite them in the ass as well.

You don't think the mirror is going to be turned, that they're going to be able to murder every decent Arab in the Territories as collaborators? You don't think more are going to eventually get on TV like Shoebat or Abu Toameh, Sandmonkey, Freedom for Egyptians, etc... and call out the bullshit?

JUST WAIT MY MAN..... IT'S COMING.

Then you'll have to stew in your memorized cants.

 
At 12/16/2005 10:33:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Jordan -
Why the hell do you think I spent all that time at that "Zionist Training Camp" in Montreal? To meet Chicks?

I would assume and hope so. That's why any other guy would go.

I really hope we get over our post-colonists guilt and maybe start promoting our values again before the Muslim Brotherhood, Hizballa, and Islamic Jihad completely take over.

Our values have nothing to do with it over there. Freedom for Egyptian had a great post on this, the cycle and how it works.
If you've been to any college

Plus, on most campuses today the far left Marxist have virtually taken over monopolized the discussion. In France now there was a big controversy over Finkelraut's explanation of how French "intellectuals" are destroying that country... that there is nothing that isn't the West's fault.
http://www.nysun.com/article/23689?access=844595

Papa Ray
I empathize with some of the points you make. But if you're advocating mass violence, the way the Muslim world "justifies" suicide bombing (only against Jews or Americans of course) then I don't. I assume/hope you're just blowing off some steam.

 
At 12/16/2005 10:33:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To all who have posted comments concerning the latest rant by SM:
The biggest overall problem plaguing the egyptian ppl is overwhelming ignorance and lack of opportunity, the biggest proof of which is the current success of the brotherhood and the now ever prevalent anti-semitism of egyptians.

Concerning the brotherhood: in campagning the brotherhood never mentioned how they were going to deal with the pressing issues plaguing Egypt like education, health care, the economy, and most importantly the poverty which egyptians have become increasingly apathetic too because of its enormity. Instead the brotherhood hid like cowards behind their slogan to acertain themselves as islamists which ofcourse entails that they're God-fearing pios egyptians who will look after our best interests before theirs. How did the public react to this-by not questioning them(ignorance) and supporting them wholehearted, how do you explain this, local imams under the brotherhoods payroll in their friday sermon preach Quranic values with a little dose of politics on the side. The choice is clear for simple egyptians who don't know any better. Brotherhood supporters have told me that its their "religious duty" to put the brotherhood in power. This statement alone is very alarming, the brotherhood is capitalising using Islam as a political tool, what happens when they fail, where does that active "religious duty" go, it turns into religious strife and violence! I'm sorry for the apocalytic view that I hold but you have to see brotherhood supports and students on the streets and in universities to know what I'm talking about.

Concerning the ever-so-present anti-semitism in Egyptians: Its true, all along Egypts history there has been a visible Jewish commuinty which made egypt their home and didn't want it any other way, up until the 50's that is! The revolution took place, Nasser became head of state and unfortunatly for Egypts diversity the Egyptian Jews felt the wrath of Arab nationalism. Three wars later and Egyptians still hate Jews, or is it Israelis? I myself would like to know the answer to that if Egyptians make a distinction between Jews and Israelis?
All I can comment on is my own experience with the issue, last year I embarked on a trip to the holy land, I backpacked all through Israel and Palestine and had an amazing time doing it, I learned a lot about Israelis and Egyptians on that trip. For one thing I learned that Egyptians
don't know jack shit about Israelis and why is that, because we're not allowed to go to israel. To go to israel with appropriate documentaion is like the everest of bearucratic bullshit, you thought getting your army papers was a headache then get ready for a brain tumour. Get this, you have to have the signature and approval from the minister of interior and they tell you that "amn dawla" (national police) and "el mukhabarat" (secret service) will follow you as long as they see fit, thats besides the months of paper work and high-up connections which are a must to obtain permission to go. Those are the facts, to most egyptians, they don't even know they have the option of going, its a forbidden place, its taboo to even talk about it. Most egyptians are like "Go to israel, are you crazy, do you wanna get kidnapped in the middle of the night and buried alive in the desert", those are some of the common thoughts associated with a trip to israel.
So I went to Israel and had an amazing time, met some great people, and even got laid, woohoo! When I was hitchhiking through Galilee I got picked up by hadistic jews, those freaky looking dudes looking like grimreepers with funky side burns and cool hats. I couldn't believe that they picked me up in the middle of the highway and drove me to my hostel and all they wanted to talk to me about was soccer. I saw a very human mundane side to Israeli people unlike the blood thirsty homewrecking side we're told about in egypt. One of my friends even told me that israelis don't shower, which simply proves my point of egyptians not knowing jack about israelis. I learned something very interesting about egyptians though, when i came back to egypt, I came back on bus through sinai, so I went through Taba, Nuweiba, Dahab all places which Israeli tourists frequently visit. I talked to the egyptians there and they loved Israelis and its not because their livelyhood depends on Israeli tourists, I know this because they never mentioned it. They simply told me how kind hearted, generous and funny Israelis are, now that coming from egyptians was a culture shock to me, and I'm egyptian. They had one advantage over other egyptians in the rest of the country, they had actually met them and talked to them. So in conclusion I tell all egyptians to get to know Israelis before you cast judgement, sure we went to war with them but we also made peace with them.

My message to Mahdi Akef is fuck off man, leave us alone, your the cancer plaguing the middle-east and Egypt, you wanna go to war again with Israel, you go fight, in my opinion the Gov. shouldn't have let you out of prison. A warlord and hatemonger, you should be stripped of your citizenship and sent to Iran, you can live on Islamboli street, better yet they'll name a street after you.

Maged

 
At 12/16/2005 11:13:00 AM, Blogger Egypeter said...

Maged - Well said my fellow countryman!! There's no doubting that anti-semitism and anti-christian ideology is rampant in Egypt. IT IS A FACT!!!!
The funniest part of it is the sheer ignorance that Egyptians are indoctrinated with beginning at the age of 0.

This article will show you the tolerance and love of Egyptians...same story over and over just a different day.

http://www.freecopts.blogspot.com/

I agree with your comment on that terrorist Akef...get him the hell out of the country before he single-handedly destroys Egypt!!

Peter
Chicago, USA

 
At 12/16/2005 11:50:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Maged,
I just posted your comment.
Thanks man for speaking the truth!

You know what would happen if you went on American tv or European and said that? Forget what the Arabs there would say to you... the "PBS left wing crowd" would call you a self-hater and a Zionist.

That HAS GOT TO CHANGE.

Mike

 
At 12/16/2005 01:12:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Egypeter, Maged, Scorekeeper, Mike, it's really hard to mistake the absolutist tones in your writings, your level of hate towards arabs and moslems (you showed no or little at best differentiation between extremists and moderates) is beyond deniability, voiding the feasibilty of any rational and good faith discussion, and I won't go ahead and list the daily hate speech and vilification of arabs and moslems here in the US. I didn't see SM or any of you all worked up about it, as you did with our MB idiot, that's because the likes of you in the west and the likes of Akef in Egypt are two sides of the same coin, uncompromising, extremist, hate mongers, in a funny way both sides are identical.
To be fair I think the only one that I can have a reasonable, meet half way, discussion with here is Jordan, who, out of all the crazy people on this blog was singled out to be trashed by twosret, good argument twosret, but absolutely wrong person.

 
At 12/16/2005 01:52:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

THIS IS CLASSIC!
Mohammed comments
Egypeter, Maged, Scorekeeper, Mike, it's really hard to mistake the absolutist tones in your writings, your level of hate towards arabs and moslems (you showed no or little at best differentiation between extremists and moderates)
So let's get this straight -
1) Maged's eloquent letter was absolutist and hateful!
2) Maged and Egypeter are self haters!
3) I'm an Islamophobe and Arab Hater!!! (you got me, boy you're good)
4) We are all the eqivalent of the nutjob Mullah in Iran, the HEAD of the MB and all the Egyptians who produced and watched a medeival special that portrayed Jooos as bloodsuckers, evil and pigs and monkey.

And this from the same person who just said that Israeli supporters "use anti-semitism" as a shield to void any criticism of Israel...

CAN YOU CITE THE SENTENCE WHERE MAGED IS "Absolutist and Hateful"?

Yet Mohammed continues -

is beyond deniability, voiding the feasibilty of any rational and good faith discussion,

Oh I see..... "we hate Arabs" you declare of course... so there is no point of discussion... similar to stating "oh he's a zionist" or "he's a traitor"....

and I won't go ahead and list the daily hate speech and vilification of arabs and moslems here in the US.

PLEASE DO~! I want to see you cite it NOW!

I didn't see SM or any of you all worked up about it, as you did with our MB idiot, that's because the likes of you in the west and the likes of Akef in Egypt are two sides of the same coin,

LOL... you're not only deluded but you're clueless.

 
At 12/16/2005 02:45:00 PM, Blogger forsoothsayer said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 12/16/2005 02:47:00 PM, Blogger forsoothsayer said...

Listen it all comes down to: just because many arab nations are fucked up, oppressive, anti-semetic, won't take in palestinians, whatever, DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE ISRAELI STATE DOES NOT PERPETRATE MASSIVE WAR CRIMES AND OTHER FORMS OF ABUSE. jeez, just because the arabs are messed up, doesn't make the Israelis right.

 
At 12/16/2005 03:12:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Scorekeeper,
If you really live in the US and think that I can't cite the intensity of hate speech and vilification of arabs and moslems by (explicitly and implicitly) radio talk shows,printed publications, and by armagedonist preachers , then you're either living in a cave, or you think that I'm living in a cave and will be stunned and paralyzed by your challenge, or you see it and hear it everyday but don't consider that to be hate speech (after all, those people are speaking the truth and aren't intimidated by political correctness crap)which proves my point about your fascistic tendencies, listing everything said or written is a herculian task. I can just give you a sample and you can check their websites and check out their books and talk shows, although I'm sure, being the right wing nut you are, you're familiar with all those names, most of those people are frequent guests on Fox news by the way
Ann Coulter:"We must invade their countries kill their leaders and convert them to christianity".
Michel Malkin:Advocates puting moslems in internment camps.
Michael Savage:Lamented about "How could the military imprison a hero like Charles Graner (the abo ghrabe prison pervert) instead of giving him a medal?".
Tom Tancrido (Colorado Congressman):"In the case of another attack, we should nuke Mecca"
Robert Spencer: Wrote a revisionist history of the crusades as a glorious event of human history.
Hugh Fitzgerald (Robert Spencer's minion):Openly advocates boycotting all US moslems, insisting there's nothing called a moderate moslem
Ariana Fallaci (she's italian, but she's the god mother of all hate speech): " There's nothing such as a moderate moslem, let alone a good moslem"
I can go on non stop, but I have to get back to work.

 
At 12/16/2005 03:51:00 PM, Blogger stefania said...

Nonie Darwish, I agree with you.

 
At 12/16/2005 04:06:00 PM, Blogger Papa Ray said...

Scorekeeper said:
"I empathize with some of the points you make. But if you're advocating mass violence, the way the Muslim world "justifies" suicide bombing (only against Jews or Americans of course) then I don't. I assume/hope you're just blowing off some steam."

First off, Muslims justify the murder bombers by their hatred of anything or anyone not believing in Islam as the one and only religion. They justify it by saying the infidels are only good for killing or raping, or taxing and being their slaves.

I don't think I or any Americans fall into any group like that..do you?

Yes, there was a lot of steam there but also laced with truth and the knowledge that Americans won't sit by and let violence go unpunished and/or harm come to our families.

Yes, we do know that the ballot is the first and most preferable way of solving problems. But we also know that sometimes it is not enough or doesn't work as advertised.

The USA is not your tame, europfied, completely civil image that most people have of us. We are the best and can be the worst. Like the Marine saying: "We can be your best friends or your worse enemies."

My view of racism is most likely not exactly what yours is. Its not white against brown or black but against cultures, groups or religions that do harm to their followers or to others. BTW, "harm" is not just violence, it can be many things, such as economic or teaching our kids that Islam is the religion of peace, or that illegals have the same rights and privilages as anyone else.

Consider what "groups" I (and many others) know are becoming dangerous and/or causing harm to our families, friends and country.

Like Islam

Like Mexican Gangs.

Like Black Gangs

Like Skinhead Nazis.

Like the KKK.

Like White Supremacists.

Like Redneck Idiots.

Violence and civil unrest and revolt will occur if our local, state and federal government can not or will not protect our families and us.

We won't shoot, torture or abuse illegal mexicans, muslims or others...unless they do us harm and no action or punishment is forthcoming by our local, state or federal agencys.

We know what happens if you don't have a black and white case of self protection.

You get sued, put in jail and they can get your home, land and vehicles, leaving you poor in jail but much wiser.

But much more pissed.

I am just letting you know that the boiling point is not too far in the future and that unless the powers that be, start doing something to not only protect us but to stop this slide into the liberal anti-american, anti-government PC madness there is going to be big trouble and much unrest and revolt by "Average Americans".

I hope its just with elections, but it just might not be.

Individual Americans usually don't gather together and just have a riot. Not even the kids. Americans are individuals and may have some gangs and/or groups of like minded individuals but mass riots are just not our thing.

What you will see is people being killed, wounded or beaten senseless and in the hospital if..if the American public loses confidence in its law enforcement agencys.

We take care of our own.
If we don't think the ones that are supposed to take care of us can or will.

Well, lets just say we will take care of our own, one way or the other.

Oh, a little off topic, but on target, the people in the largest building in the world have just now come to the conclusions I have known for over a year.

Read about it.

The Pentagon Breaks the Islam Taboo

Oh, yea, I don't hate muslims just their "religion". I know its not their fault, they are just brainwashed. I know they are really good people that have been led down the wrong path.

I'm sure that with a little counciling they can be made to see that Islam needs to be revised and made into a proper peaceloving religion.

Yea, right.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

 
At 12/16/2005 04:10:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Mohammed,
I was about to respond to you're for the most part poorly contructed nonsense and then I thought better of it.

It's simply a waste of time.

If Nonie, Sandman, Maged or others want to waste their time and BP then they can. But since they've ignored you, I don't know why I took your 5th grade style bait.

I don't feel any compunction whatsoever to prove my good character and nature nor further flay your moral eqivalency comparisons and other garbage.

I will say though that it is any wonder so many Arabs and Moslems want to emigrate to the US and the Mayor of Uh Fahm despite flying Hezbollah flags said he wouldn't trade his town to the PLO nascent 'state' or his Israeli citizenship for an Egyptian one for all the oil in the Sinai.

Take care and be well (mentally and physically)
Captain Kirk out.

Mike

 
At 12/16/2005 04:27:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What a bunch of pro israeli idiots. Let me rub my eyes again and read "arabs love and can trust Israelis"? did I just read that?

What a fucking bullshit. Mike you wasted already half a page to post. It must have struck a nerve you moron.

 
At 12/16/2005 04:31:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Like Islam"

Like Mexican Gangs.

Like Black Gangs

Like Skinhead Nazis.

Like the KKK.

Like White Supremacists.

Like Redneck Idiots.

Let us add to the list above

Like Zionist
Like Jews
Like Israelis


Now the list is complete

 
At 12/16/2005 05:07:00 PM, Blogger Kat said...

If you really want to know why the Israel Palestine conflict will not end (any time soon), you need to look at a map. This has very little to do with ideology or "right of return" so much as the existence of Palestine as a state requires several things, all of which guarantee economic freedom and is why the US has pressed for Israel to provide contiguous borders for Palestine uninterrupted by Israel border intrusions.

Palestine has little arable land that can be farmed to create enough produce and a variety that would provide for self sufficiency or enough trade in specific goods to allow for off setting imports that did not make Palestine an eternal indebted and failed state.

Secondly, access to ports for exportation of any goods is extrememly limited. In fact, Israel controls the economic viability of Palestine and any Palestinian government worth its salt knows that, to have a state control its economy by controlling its ability to produce and export is a security risk that not even the US would tolerate on a good day (why we project power into the ME; it ain't all about oil, but it is about things like heavily trafficked international trade routes from the east to the west).

In fact, if Palestine as a state could exist within the totality of the Israel/Palestine border, they would have access to an abundance arable land and ports.

The problem is, people have let the propaganda regarding ideological differences get in the way of reality. Both the support for Israel and those who support Palestine have bought into the high minded ideological concepts so they can pretend that the other side is the agressor and they are the victims.

It's not true. The agressor is both states because Israel knows that, as soon as they give Palestine an accessible port that they do not control, Palestine will import greater weapons, build up a military and seek to complete the war that came to a halt almost 40 years ago.

Don't think that that won't happen. Groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and even Fatah do not get overwhelming support in these areas because people believe they are searching for peace.

Two other problems exist, and its not all Israel's problem. Jerusalem will not be settled by any contiguous borders issue. The question of the al Aqsa mosque and the wailing was and Abrahams burial place will continue to be a point of contention since it can be said, should Palestine take control of the area, Jews could not come and worship.

Palestine does not even guarantee the safety of its own citizens from extra judicial executions, much less the safety of a non-citizen. At least, at this time, Muslims worship at Al Aqsa, Christians go to Bethlehem and Jews can visit the wailing wall. All in relative safety. A state that cannot offer that cannot own that site.

Last, I will add that the Palestinian problem is deepseated. It is a group of people who have made an industry out of victimhood and war. That is what they know. That is what they can do. Whether the ability for Palestine to have contiguous borders and uninterrupted trade routes will end any fight is highly questionable when the entire life blood of a country for 50 years has been making war, supporting war. That is the entire premise of the existence of Hamas and Hezballah.

Neither of these groups are going to suddenly morph into totally political social groups without military wings. If it did, the purpose of their existence would be gone and so would they. No organization is going to give that up litely.

Frankly, all other issues beyond the land, ports and economic viability are BS. And, Palestinians are not simply victims, they are equally agressors even if they do not use a tank (which I believe they would if they had it).

And, the support of Palestine by Arabs against israel is not about Jews or love of Palestinians. Again, look at the map. There was a reason that Hussein the Hashemite wanted an Arab state that extended to Syria, Lebanon and "Palestine". The same reason that Palestine as it is, is not economically viable. He knew that he needed viable land and access to ports to the Mediterannean since the European continent was and is an important first choice for trade and economic viability. Further, it would have protected their interest in the Suez Canal area, also necessary for exports and imports to and from the region to Europe and beyond.

Whoever controls the Suez Canal controls the economic viability of the region. Israel setting on the very cusp and very capable of fighting for it, presents an economic threat. Of course, if there was peace and free trade, a compact of national security among the states to even include the protection of Israel, this would be a non question.

However, its pretty hard to turn around 100 years of propaganda about the evil Jews, particularly after it has become the base of a religion.

Palestine and Israel are going to last forever in war, with or without our interference until both sides are tired of fighting and dying and both sides decide that their best bet is to form an economic alliance. Without it, its all war all the time.

 
At 12/16/2005 08:30:00 PM, Blogger CanadianGoose said...

I think this website and this debate are awesome. I am impressed when I see arab/muslim people stand up to the blind hatred and propaganda that they are taught to believe(for the most part). When someone in the West challenges or opposses the views held by his or her country, that is democracy. But when an arab/muslim challenges the views held by his or her country or community, that person faces alienation, accusations of betrayal and threats of violence: that person is what I consider to be a true hero.
By reading this website I can see that SM cares deeply about his people and the path that they take. The fact that some people accuse SM of being a self-hating arab is disgusting and baseless. Mere self-criticism is not a quality of a traitor but of a strong individual, and one who seeks betterment. It is people like SM and Nonie Darwish who are courageous and they should be respected.

 
At 12/16/2005 09:31:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Kat

A lot of what you say is of course true. However, a few points to consider.
1) Israel does not have any route east south or north. All Arab countries are pretty much cut off to them.
2) Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and Turkey are all Arab and/or Islamic countries with tremendous port.
3) Hong Kong has NO arable land whatsoever.
4) Arabs in Gaza have spoken about how the land the Jews made money growing things, even now was cursed. Nothing would ever grow there. When there is a will, opportunity some hard work and ingenuity anything can be done.
5) If you look at the conflict for what it really is an - ARAB - ISRAELI conflict... then look at the map of the Middle East and look at Israel and ask yourself why with Trillions in Oil the Palis and much of the Arab world is pretty impoverished?
6) You underestimate the power of religion, ideology and rejectionism.
7) The Israelis have been tired of fighting and dying for years. That's why Arafat thought they were for the taking after they withdrew from Lebanon and actually offered him virtually all of the Territories and part of Jerusalem.

Finally, of course any Arab that speaks out is a traitor, infidel, zionist or hore. Then they are either dead or scared shit.

However, of course any Israeli or Jew that bashes Israel, even nut jobs like Avnery and Pappe and Finkelstein are heroes in the Arab world... and "good Jews" of course... lol!!

 
At 12/16/2005 10:25:00 PM, Blogger Jordan said...

Kat, that was a wonderful and insightful response! I am really impressed!

Scorekeaper, what is with your opposition to PBS. I am pro-Israel and I love PBS, I actually am a paying member and I am Canadian!

Have you seen their Frontline reports on the middle-east?

 
At 12/17/2005 12:25:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanx Kat for the insight on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, everyone gets caught up in the whole hatred between Arabs and Jews, that people don't take the time to really ask the important questions afflicting both sides.

And to Scorekeeper thanx for posting my letter on your blog, much appreciated.

To Mohamed, bro you got me all wrong, I'm really saddened that you think you can't meet me half-way, I'm very liberal, but very angry at the same time at the people who are trying to take away my limited freedoms here in Egypt and who spread senseless hate towards Jews and Christians for no other reason then being Jewish and Christian, so the mere existence of a Jew or Christian is provocating enough to hate them, I don't understand that and I refuse to beleive thats become the nature of good hearted Egyptians. You know as well as I do, how hospitable, kind, and funny egyptians are, so how do you explain the current intolerance and narrow-mindedness egyptians have towards anyone alien in idealogy, culture, religion, and even skin colour-the government refuses to recognise Nubians as a diverse people and culture in Egypt so as not to burden them with any kind of responsibilty. Also white or fair-skinned people usually being rich but not always, tend to want to marry other white or fairskinned people. My explaination of this downward trend of social values is the stagnation of intellectual free thought substituted by mechanical almost computer-like thought promoted by gov. and clergy who tell us not to think outside certain parameters.

Mohamed, do you not agree that the wrong people are in power in Egypt, its either corrupt politicians or savy Islamists, who both alike are united in one goal, SEIZE POWER, how, by waging war on liberals, intellectuals, and on anyone who critizes them in anyway.

Lets not forget the assasination attempt on our beloved father of Arab literature Naguib Mahfouz, now the Islamists send him apologies on his birthdays from prison.

The persecution faced by Taha Hussein for being liberal and a reformist of thought, his books banned in Egypt, the government literally threatening any institution that would hire him, now hes a national hero.

Lets not forget how journalists get kidnapped in the middle of night for exposing the regimes shortcomings. There are numerous other examples of intellectuals who are persecuted in Egypt for advocating liberal thought, I don't know why the Egyptian system dampens creativity and kills the soul of ever realising our dreams. The only people who have opportunities are the affluent and elite with foreign educations.

How much has really changed since pre-revolution Egypt, yea we've come a long way since then, thank God those days are over, now we have free education, yet ilitarcy is at a staggering 57.7%, now we have free healthcare, do you really wanna see what Cairo University Hospital looks like, I invite you to come and see how poor patients are treated, I'm there everyday.

Being Egyptian, lets agree on one thing, and I think Sandmonkey is with me on this one, Menatalities are this nations biggest obstacle, thats whats got to change.

In the words of the late Bob Marley, "Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but our selves can free our minds"

Maged

 
At 12/17/2005 02:31:00 PM, Blogger Kat said...

Answering points:

1) Israel does not have any route east south or north. All Arab countries are pretty much cut off to them.

Wrong. You have any idea how many Arab states actually have secret eceonomic compacts with Israel, including Jordan (actually, not that secret, but not announced everydayd) and Egypt. Secondly, it's not Israel that needs the routes to the Arabs, its the Arabs that need the routes to the mediterranean. This would help speed oil exports, for one.

As a state with many ports that can bring material easily and securely in and out of their country, that has a robust manufacturing industry, all they need is oil, and they get it. In return, they import raw materials, export completed quality goods, have a well educated group of people, import most food stuff and export specific food stuff.

They don't actually need much from the Arabs except, oil.

2) Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and Turkey are all Arab and/or Islamic countries with tremendous port.

Tremendous ports, but, Saudi Arabia oil exports must go by pipe through Syria, Lebanon and Turkey to Europe or must be shipped from their ports and go through the Suez Canal or around the horn of Africa. all of which are owned by different countries, all of which costs money in taxes, transportation, maintenance, etc.

You have to think through the entire economic process.

Of course, there is the thing where, if they could get "Palestine" back, it would relieve some of these states from their burdensome welfare clients (whom they created, but hey!)

3) Hong Kong has NO arable land whatsoever.

Quite right, as I just explained, the point about arable land is about self sustainment if you have no other economic means. As I note, not only does Palestinian territory have limited land, but limited trade routes and port access for goods. Both together make the problem.

Hong Kong survives because of its location as a port for transfering goods, fueling ships, buying and trading product, etc. But, it has ports.

4) Arabs in Gaza have spoken about how the land the Jews made money growing things, even now was cursed. Nothing would ever grow there. When there is a will, opportunity some hard work and ingenuity anything can be done.

Okay. Let's go a little farther. Arable land is produced by what? Water. Water rights is one of the other main obstacles (we are talking fresh water). Israel created a system of dams and canals to obtain the water, from the river Jordan and the main lake of the area. For Palestine to create the same effect, they would also need to divert water which would effect the amount of water flowing into the Israeli system. Water sharing is one other aspect of non-ideological problems that affects the conflict. a viable solution must be determined that would not undermine Israel's ability to produce. It is, in fact, one of the reasons that they continue to hold certain areas because water or lack there of, is a national security issue for any country in the ME. It is also one of the reasons that Israel has invested in significant desalinization technology to try to protect against the logical outcome of a successful incursion against water outlets that could be used to starve or "dehydrate" Israel into submission through modern siege warfare.

At the same time, this is a significant concern for Palestine since the control of water by Israel presents the same national security threat.

5) If you look at the conflict for what it really is an - ARAB - ISRAELI conflict... then look at the map of the Middle East and look at Israel and ask yourself why with Trillions in Oil the Palis and much of the Arab world is pretty impoverished?

I never said the Arab states were brilliant economists. The fact is, these states have done very little in investing in other industry which, in the ME, is still limited by the amount of arable land and water rights that could significantly bolster and industrialization of their economies. Also, the fact is, profits are heavily distributed at the top levels of these regimes to rulers, cronies and purchasing lots of military equipment instead of finding other ways to create industry. The few UAE states on the east coast have done better because they have fostered tourism and have gotten an influx of retail and rental revenue from the presence of US forces.

Until then, read my above explanation about increasing ports or areas for exportation of oil and by passing the multiple middle men who all take their share of the revenue pie as the oil goes by.

6) You underestimate the power of religion, ideology and rejectionism.

No, I don't. I never said that the average Palestinian or a member of Hezballah is not motivated by ideology. However, you may note that most of the leadership of the PA has been secular in nature with contacts to these other groups as cooperation to press their needs when necessary. These secular leaders are not complete idiots. They understand the needs of Palestine.

On the other hand, we are talking classic insurgencies and, if you read my own posts on the subject, classic insurgencies do not motivate followers by talking about fighting for water rights or improving access to ports or even the possiblity of industrialization.

People are motivated and drawn together based on the most common denominator. Classic insurgencies need to establish several items in their declarations to attract and keep followers. In most cases, they will invoke a "moral authority" like God or "the people" as an all inclusive motivator that attempts to define their causes for "the people". God being the moral authority to start wars when there is no other moral authority, like an appropriate state function, that declares and wages wars and has authority to negotiate.

As long as they need to fight, they need to motivate and God has been an excellent motivator. And, you missed my comment about 100 years of propaganda (ie, declarations and motivations to get the widest number of supporters) that is not easily deprogrammed. However, that does not necessarily equate as the only reason savvy Palestinian leaders would continue to fight with Israel.

Unfortunately, as democracy progresses, for a short while the Islamist parties will have parliamenary power and that is guaranteed to increase friction. since most people don't understand the land and resources issue and they have imbibed the ideological war of Hezballah (Iranian supported and for a reason: ie, influence across the ME to help secure more power over OPEC and the region in general), they vote these guys in because that's their buy in for the war.

If Hezballah got everything they wanted and the Jews suddenly disappeared, Iran would be the big dog on the blog and its highly unlikely that the Palestinians would actually be free.

But, why do you think Amenadjid has been making inflammatory remarks against Israel?

7) The Israelis have been tired of fighting and dying for years. That's why Arafat thought they were for the taking after they withdrew from Lebanon and actually offered him virtually all of the Territories and part of Jerusalem.

That's true, but it takes two to tango. I believe the Palestinians are tired too. However, tired of fighting and just laying down and letting another state control your entire future or kill it is a fight for existence and nobody is going to lay that down.

Frankly, Arafat made a big fat mistake in hopes to gain more. Plenty of leaders have done that, but it doesn't necessarily negate the premise of war for land and resources (whatever motivates the average Palestinians to continue on in war).

As a matter of fact, if you've read these treaties you would find lots of details about land and resources.

It just doesnt get talked about because its not as sexy as revolutions against "the man" and blowing stuff up for Allah.

 
At 12/17/2005 02:47:00 PM, Blogger Kat said...

Oh..nearly forgot. egypt has a treaty with Israel. They don't need their ports, but Israel abutts the Sinai which contains the Suez which is a major source of imports and exports from the ME and Asia which generates all sorts of industry and revenue.

Their major concerns, security wise, are not ports or land, but the protection of the Suez AND the fact that they have a large Palestinian refugee populace whose problems and ideology has infiltrated the Egyptian culture along with such great Islamic manifesto writers like Qutb, creating the potential for instability. Thus, as long as Palestine/Israel is unsettled, egypt is at risk. Palestine will be a problem until it is economically viable. Thus, Egypt has a direct national security problem which forces them on one hand to have relations (limited as they are) with Israel and must continue to advocate for Palestinian state and self rule.

Frankly, I believe that the Egyptian government, autocratic as it is, is better acquainted with reality than any ideological argument with Israel and probably wouldn't care two sh!ts in a hand bucket about its existence if the potential for over flow violence was constantly on their radar.

 
At 12/17/2005 02:48:00 PM, Blogger Kat said...

sorry..."wasn't constantly on their radar".

 
At 12/17/2005 03:46:00 PM, Blogger Michael B said...

"A better indication is 'The Passion of the christ'. Huge amounts of Muslims promoted seeing this movie, not because they liked Jesus, but because, in their eyes, showed the evil true nature of the Jews. The movie was a huge hit in Egypt man, with more muslims seeing it than christians. I guess that's what the ADL was afraid of when it was fighting this movie, you know?" Sandmonkey

Horse feathers.

Concerning the "huge amounts of Muslims" and "more muslims seeing it than christians," that may have something to do with the Muslim/Christian ratio, the CIA world fact book notes Egypt has 94% Muslims (mostly Sunni) and 6% "Christian and other". Hmmmmmmm, pulling chin and pondering deeply here.

More importantly, having viewed the movie twice in the wake of Frank Rich's slanders and misquotes and similar misrepresentations of Gibson fils, there wasn't a piece of anti-Semitism in the movie. Not one. While I very much hesitate to note this simple fact, at the risk of similarly being branded a fanatic or anti-Semitic defender of Gibson fils, I also hesitate to let this repetition of the slander pass unnoticed, especially so since it's merely repeated and yet once again unsubstantiated. Further still, given the fact Arab/Muslims have been known to use such malevolently anti-Semitic figures as Santa Clause (sic) as a prop for their anti-Semitic incitements, I wonder what they haven't used to promote these vilifications and incitements. And the ADL's Abe Foxman - now there's a man noted for his veracity and even-handedness.

A far better and far more reliable source - and without Foxman's mendacity - for what needs to be overcome in the long view can be found at Matthias Kuntzel's, e.g., here, here and here.

 
At 12/18/2005 02:41:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

I don't want to divert this conversation into one about the Gibson movie.

However, to say it was "anti-semitic" is probably wrong - but to say it doesn't make Jews look bad and is very dangerous is also wrong.

Note, Gibson IS A FANATIC. He has his own style of very conservative Catholicism and completely rejects the New Church doctrine. His dad, if you don't know is raving lunatic altogether and a blatant Jew hater, which I'm sure had "no effect" on Mel.

Mel urgently wanted to put in "and the blood be upon their children" but caved at the last second.

This notion, I don't give a shit how religious anyone thinks they are, is fucking pathologically wacked and is a reason, among others, that a lot of people reject religion altogether.

He also based a lot of his movie on the "dreams" of a German Nun who lived in the 17th Century only 1600 years after Jesus... who had "dreams" and "visions" which more clearly 'revealed to her' what "really hapened" 1600 years ago on top of the existing tradition.

"Jesus told her more vividly what 'really' happened" and not surprisingly it included such things as.... the blood libel, a common meme in Medeival Europe, as well as further story filler which of course made "the Jews" look even worse and Pilate coincidentally more benevolent - the Saddam Hussein of his time.

Gibson has said how beautiful her book is.

I was completely ignorant of the entire story, I know you'll find that hard to believe, but I was. So I went to see the movie and sat next to my neighbor who went to Catholic School, and a middle aged lady who was crying throughout the entire movie and filling me in to what/who/where everyone/thing was.

After the movie was over my first thought was 'Now I get why the Jews have been getting kicked around for 2000 years'

While Gibson did included stating Jesus was a Rabbi he went out of his way to demonize the Jewish High and the crowd. He did put in some subtle clues as to Jesus being Jewish (yes a Rabbi) and Mary as well.

However, note how he pictured the High Priests... the classic EUROPEAN villainous stereotype of a Jewish man. I doubt there were High Priests back then who had hook noses, dressed like modern day Hosetics, with dirty crooked teeth.. they most probably looked a lot more like Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews do today... or what Americans would view as Arabic looking.

And I thought Gibson was all "about authenticity" in the movie? EH?

Also a good friend of mine was on the liberal Catholic Board that was invited by Gibson and the promotions company to review the script. They did so gladly and promptly and sent them their feelings, analyses and concerns. Gibson then turned around and created a "good guy/bad guy" scenario which they 'sold' to the newspapers, especially conservative Christian ones... and got all the more hype for the movie and additional sales.

Foxman, is another story I don't even want to comment on him now.

All I can tell you is from what I know on the "know" so to speak, I don't think Mel is such a great guy. In fact I really think he is wacked out. Before he got religious again, he was contemplating suicide and known for being a little wacked in the head. Why does a guy with a huge family and many kids and apparently great wife want to commit suicide?

He's a fin wacko? He's touched in the head or weak? Noone will believe he's weak?

Sleep time, late night.
Kirk Out.

 
At 12/18/2005 05:18:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is this long posts is all about? The Jews crucified Jesus Christ and voted for his death.

Why are you going in circles with desperate attempts to change history?.

Strange people with a lot of time on their hands :)

 
At 12/18/2005 07:13:00 AM, Blogger yochanan said...

Question Was life in the west bank better under the Jordians or under Arafat? Jordan is one of the better run states at this point and if the west bank was part of it the question of economic and political vialbilty would be much better. Between 48-67 how come no one spoke of a Palestine state? Most Israeli's have no desire to control gaza and the west bank. For real peace the ave. Israeli would accept a Pali state. The problem we have is that groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizzballah want to commit genocide. And then there is Iran which says Israel should be wiped off the map. Only a fool would not understand that this is genocide.

 
At 12/18/2005 07:35:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

Wow, how did comments on the MB antisemetic remarks get into this?

Ok, I won't get involved in the palestine/Israel debate thing. Just do not have the energy.

As for the Mel Gibson movie, let me explain what I meant. The movie can be viewed in 2 ways : One way is the way the christians view it: the story of jesus crucifiction and what he stands for. A profession of their faith if you will. The accusation by the jews and all that is an afterthought. Not to mention it showed some of them rabbis protesting the crucifiction, so it showed that not all jews are like that. That was the end of that discussion.

The other way is the way the jews (and the muslims who went and saw this movie) saw it: A movie showing the jews actively campaigning for the torture and murder of an innocent man. The Muslims don;t believe Jesus is god nor that he was crucified, but that wasn;t the point. The Point was that Jesus was a good man and he was falesly accused, and subsequently tortured and murderd because of the Jews'accusations. To the egyptian muslims seeing this movie, it validated their belief that the Jews are indeed wicked, evil and connyving liars. And that's not my theory, that's what people actually said in interviews after viewing that movie. That's all there is to it!

 
At 12/18/2005 09:50:00 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Anon said:

"What is this long posts is all about? The Jews crucified Jesus Christ and voted for his death."

"Why are you going in circles with desperate attempts to change history?."

Isn't that what YOU just did?

1) The jews did not crucify Jesus. The Romans did.

2) Jesus was a JEW. His religion was JUDAISM, not Christianity. WHat is it that people have so much trouble understanding about this?

I saw the movie, and didn't see any of the things that other people claim to have seen. People see what they wanna see, you know? If you want to find a reason to hate the Jews, you don't need to watch a movie to do that.

Sandmonkey, considering that Moslems do not believe Jesus was crucifed, and was therefore not resurrected, and therefore did not die for the sins of man (which pretty much is the central point of Christianity) then which part of that movie do they believe? That confuses me.

According to muslim belief, Christianity is a false religion, because it's based on a lie. (the death of Jesus)
And now muslims blame the Jews for doing something that Islam claims never happened?

Considering Islam is based on Judaism and Christianity, I find both of those propositions difficult to accept. Am I the only one who thinks moslems are tearing down the foundations of their own religion? Christians bashing Jews is stupidity. Moslems bashing Christains and Jews both is even worse stupidity. But at least moslems have an excuse. Most moslems know nothing at all about the Christianity or Judaism, even though they are the basis for Islam. Christians don't have that excuse. Most of the Torah is included in our Bible as the Old Testament and we know it well.

If we can't get religion out of politics, we are all going to die. Every last one of us.

 
At 12/18/2005 11:51:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Craig -
Thanks for clearing up the deal for that "brilliant" explanation that commenter gave.

I would also add that tens of thousands of Jews are estimated to have been crucified in a few decades and hundreds of thousands murdered. Crucifixtion was a special reserved right the Romans utilized for special circumstances.

Pilate was such a lunatic the Romans eventually removed him for being to quick to murder people and potentially riling up the 'rough necked' locals in the end, which the Romans didn't want.

The Romans eventually crucified 1 of the most revered scholars in Judaic history which led to the revolt in 70AD where the Romans at first shockingly got their arshes kicked in. They sent in the Roman Legions, (which they didn't like to have to do) and murdered, burned and pillaged Jerusalem and Israel and the Temple. They also expelled or enslaved much of the population there.

Jordan -
How did you make a link? I go to lgf, create the link and copy it here and it ddoesn't work? It says that Sandman's blog doesn't recognize the commands?

Sandman -
Here is the infamous Sandman I have mentioned before.
http://www.punchout.freehosting.net/hall.htm

And like usual your explanation hit the nail on the head above.

 
At 12/18/2005 11:53:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Craig -
then which part of that movie do they believe? That confuses me.

According to muslim belief, Christianity is a false religion, because it's based on a lie. (the death of Jesus)
And now muslims blame the Jews for doing something that Islam claims never happened?


Craig you're trying to apply logic to hate. As if it's logical.

 
At 12/18/2005 12:22:00 PM, Anonymous Mary said...

Craig,

Jesus was born by a Jewish mother and father but he is not Jewish by religion. He is Christ, Christian etc....

He was convicted by the Jewish priests, they were the reason why he was crucified not just the romans.

Please review history closely.

 
At 12/18/2005 12:42:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

"Jesus was born by a Jewish mother and father but he is not Jewish by religion. He is Christ, Christian etc...."

Mary, you are wrong. Christianity didn't even EXIST until after Jesus died. His followers were known as Nazarenese, a sect of Judaism. You are just wrong on this. The religion Jesus practiced while he was alive was Judaism, and that's the reason Jewsish leader opposed him... because they thought he was teaching Judaism improperly.

I suspect I know quite a lot more about this than you think I do.

 
At 12/18/2005 04:15:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Craig -

Of course he practiced Judaism. It's a fact you'd be hard pressed to get Christians to admit. He was also circumcised and observed the Jewish Sabbath, the Last Supper was actually Passover Dinner. Last time I checked I didn't think that Christians celebrated Passover? at least not officially lol. He also spoke Hebrew... imagine the shock of the world's Christians if they listened to Jesus speak and sounded like an Orthodox Jew? LMAO...

Everyone there was Jewish...

The other misnomer that is commonly used today is that Christ died in "Palestine"... that name NEVER existed until the first or 2nd uprsing (I forget?) so that's 70AD or 120AD - 40 or 80 years after his death.

The Romans wanted to smite the Israelis for rising up against them and actually kicking some Romas arsh in the process so they asked for the name of their greatest ancient enemies, the Phillistines and named it Palestina...

 
At 12/18/2005 07:05:00 PM, Blogger Michael B said...

"Wow, how did comments on the MB antisemetic remarks get into this?" Sandmonkey

"I don't want to divert this conversation into one about the Gibson movie." Scorekeeper

That (this "diversion") was already done when Sandmonkey noted Gibson fils's film, The Passion, was "a better indication [than the Protocols of the Elders of Zion]" of anti-Semititic sentiments in Egypt or the Arab/Muslim world more generally (my emphasis). That's an astonishingly blunt and strong charge to forward, especially so as it was entirely unsubstantiated. I've yet to see anyone substantiate it, though have seen dozens if not scores among the commentariat, and a few in person, repeat this slander, libel and vilification. Abe Foxman and Frank Rich were brought up simply as two more prominent examplars who demonstrably lied in order to forward this charge. I care about none of this other than to address the contempt, libel, slander and vilification against Gibson fils and the film.

"However, to say it was "anti-semitic" is probably wrong - but to say it doesn't make Jews look bad and is very dangerous is also wrong."

Yes, "probably wrong," imo certainly wrong. But concerning making anyone look bad, as a class, I wholly and profoundly disagree. Broadly stated there are but two general classes of peoples in the film: Romans and Jews. Most of the Romans look pretty bad in the film, a handful of the Romans look better or at least are portrayed in less villanous or more nuanced terms. Several of the Jews in the film look bad, many in the crowd look like people in a mob scene, while many others look good, most obviously Jesus's mother (the sneer was "bloody Mary"), Mary Magdelene, the disciples excepting Judas Iscariot, Simon who helped carry the cross, one or two among the high priests, some among the crowd lining the path to the crucifixion, the young woman and child who offered the water and some others. There were no Eskimos or Mayans in Palestine at the time, though it's troubling to think how Gibson fils might have portrayed them if there had been. Beyond the Romans and the Jews being portrayed, there was satan or lucifer and I'd agree he received a highly partial treatment. Being a multi-culturalist I was hoping to see the Prince of Darkness portrayed "against type" and much more benevolently, so yet another strike against Gibson fils.

"Note, Gibson IS A FANATIC."

Profound stuff, that. To a large degree it's actually a succinct encapsulation of the entirety of your post in general. You assert it, imply it, repeat it, and repeat it yet again; ergo, it must be true. I have little doubt Gibson fils is a regular Robespierre, Pol Pot and Mao combined - an evil trinity of "fucking pathologically wacked" religious, or anti-religious, or whatever, fanatics. You say it and say it with ample displays of contempt, ergo: it's so.

"Mel urgently wanted to put in "and the blood be upon their children" but caved at the last second.

"This notion, I don't give a shit how religious anyone thinks they are, is fucking pathologically wacked and is a reason, among others, that a lot of people reject religion altogether."

While I am nothing but contemptuous and despising of dullishly facile believers and simpletons who use injurious libels and blood libels and either naively or more consciously misuse biblical quotes to forward their own hate-filled, misanthropic and anti-Semitic agendas, the fact is that quote is based upon the text and he was considering using it within its textual context. I fully understand that you are, at least seemingly, also contemptuous of religion, the bible, etc., etc. more generally, but that quote is in the relevant text, I forget precisely where.

Too, that this is cited as a reason why "people reject religion altogether" is of course terribly insightful and deeply profound. I imagine they also reject "fucking pathologically wacked" anti-religionists and thorough-going, ideological secularist because of people like Robespierre, Pol Pot and Mao, among others. Or maybe not.

Beyond that I could continue to write at some length and with some purpose. But the single thing I take away - virtually the leitmotif in your post - is that it is riven with surfeits of despising contempt, profound misapprehensions and specious and overly leveraged presumption - and less someone miss the point - yet additional displays of contempt. I commented on Gibson fils's "Passion" previously one time only, a year-and-a-half ago, at Oliver Kamm's superb blog. I think I'll leave it there, I was spurred only in response to the more egregious libel, slander, vilification and contempt. Goodbye.

 
At 12/18/2005 07:33:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Michael B - Jordan - or- Sandman -

CAN YOU KINDLY TELL ME HOW YOU CREATED A HOT LINK IN THE COMMENTS SECTION?

I TRIED SETTING ONE UP AT LGF AND COPYING HERE and the blog would not accept it?

Please -kindly- explain to me the commands... THANKS!

Mike

 
At 12/18/2005 07:38:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

MICHAEL B -
There were no Eskimos or Mayans in Palestine at the time, though it's troubling to think how Gibson fils might have portrayed them if there had been.

Ummmm again, when Jesus died the place was called ISRAEL. Do you not get this? or are unaware?

You're taking Sandman's comment as a slander against Mel or the movie versus an example of how the Egyptian people took it. Unless you believe he is making up the fact of why it was a HUGE hit in the Arab countries, predominantly Muslim whom don't believe in the crucifixtion of Jesus...

Unless you believe they went to see the movie just bcs they appreciate the fine scenery and Aramaic language... even though the dominant language at the time spoken was Greek as was the New Testament written in.

 
At 12/18/2005 07:50:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

MICHAEL B -
While I am nothing but contemptuous and despising of dullishly facile believers and simpletons who use injurious libels and blood libels and either naively or more consciously misuse biblical quotes to forward their own hate-filled, misanthropic and anti-Semitic agendas,

So NO comment on the fact that Mel used a book written by a 17th Century German nun who had "visions" of blood libel... and whom Mel described in appreciateive if not glowing terms?

I fully understand that you are, (YOU KNOW EH?) at least seemingly, (NOW YOU'RE NOT SURE?) also contemptuous of religion, the bible, etc., etc. more generally, but that quote is in the relevant text, I forget precisely where.

I'm not contemptuous of religion, nor an atheist... but you can try to paint me as a "commy" if that nonetheless makes you feel better.

I just think its bullshit that my friend's grandfather used to get the shit beat out of him in Poland on Christmas, Easter especially when Xtians would go see Passion Plays and the Jews all knew to stay in their houses and lock the doors. Hey, but that "never happened".

Too, that this is cited as a reason why "people reject religion altogether" is of course terribly insightful and deeply profound. I imagine they also reject "fucking pathologically wacked" anti-religionists and thorough-going, ideological secularist because of people like Robespierre, Pol Pot and Mao, among others. Or maybe not.

If you're rating your point about religion by comparing it as better than Pol Pot or Mao than you're really not rating your beliefs too high?

 
At 12/18/2005 10:21:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

So, how's about that speech Bush gave tonight? What'd you guys think? :)

 
At 12/19/2005 10:11:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Maged,
I definitely agree 100% with everything you've said, I yearn for the Egypt you dream of, did I say we couldn't meet halfway? Probably I was smoking something, or I'm just confused by the huge volume of comments on this page, I've skimmed through it today and they're arguing about the passion of the Christ now? How did the discussion get there.

 
At 12/19/2005 11:18:00 AM, Blogger Solomon2 said...

Poor Mohamed. He accepts that part of the propaganda he's been exposed to is a lie. He just can't make the emotional jump to the idea that ALL of it may be a lie, and that he's been tricked all his life! That's what makes even patently false propaganda effective.

Furthermore, examine the context of your quotes and comment upon them specifically and critically - don't just assume that words in and of themselves are offensive. You give up too easily, before you win your argument.

I couldn't believe that they picked me up in the middle of the highway and drove me to my hostel and all they wanted to talk to me about was soccer. Yeah, it's only dumb Americans like me who want to talk about football.

forsoothsayer: a logical possibility, but the facts don't support this.

 
At 12/19/2005 11:20:00 AM, Blogger Solomon2 said...

Oh, yeah, I've posted some stuff on this here. Not my usual cup of tea, but some people seem obsessed about it.

 
At 12/19/2005 11:30:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Solomon -
How did you create that hot link. Will someone please email me on this.
Thanks.
Mike

 

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