The leader of the MB calls Israel "a Cancer"
Ahmeddinjad, you have found your soulmate: CAIRO - Israel is a "cancer" in the Middle East and its peace deal with Egypt should be submitted to a referendum, the leader of Egypt's Muslim Brothers said in an interview published Thursday. "I declared that we will not recognize Israel which is an alien entity in the region. And we expect the demise of this cancer soon...," Mohammed Mehdi Akef told the state-owned English language Ahram Weekly. Egypt signed a peace agreement with Israel in 1979, becoming the first Arab country to establish diplomatic ties with the Jewish state. Islamists opposed to the deal assassinated President Anwar Sadat in 1981 for signing the Camp David accord and opposition to the normalisation of relations with Israel remains strong in Egypt. Akef stopped short of demanding the peace agreement be scrapped but suggested it should be submitted to a popular referendum. "That is for the people to decide... If I had the power I would put it to the people," he said. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone involved, since the MB palestinian branch is known by a different name altogether. That name is Hamas. It's a little known fact, but MB members founded this movement. Fantastic, no?
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 12/15/2005 05:42:00 AM
42 Comments:
Oh Ahmeddinjad, you so crazy!
I don't care what you say SM, Ahmeddinjad is still the sexiest Iranian President ever and I will not let your right-wing zionist paranoia take that away.
As a jew living in hick-town Canada, I would really love to know the extent of jew-bashing in the Arab/Iranian world. Is it just used by politicians as a means to avoid questions like "why are we still poor" or do the people themselves really believe this pro-nazi garbage?
Its kinda funny, because when Politicians in Alabama are asked the same tough questions, they give a simular response except replace the word "jew" with "gay".
My persian girlfriend says that although she was forced to scream out "death to israel" while in Iran, she says that the people actually LOVE american AND israel for no other reason than because their government tells them to hate it.
I should mention that my gf is a bit on the "liberal" side... she has been dating a jew for over a year now and not one single jihadist attempt has been made on my life. (even my Jewish ex-girlfriends didn't make it this long without atleast 1 attempt!)
So I am guessing that she hung out with like-minded liberals while in Iran... you know, the ones who only wear the burka when they are drunk, naked, and lost a bet
What do you think SM, is there a alot of Jew Bashing in Egypt or is it just an obvious Red Herring?
I wish it were a red herring, but it's not. Thanks to years of Anti-IsraelNasser propaganda that got emulated by the eladers that came after him to make their people focus on an enemy other than them, the people of egypt have become truly anti-semetic. It also doesn;t help that many islamic preachers keep mentioning that "you can never judge a jew" , "they are the sons of pigs and monkeys" and "they break every deal and promise they make and will always betray you". So, yeah, anti-semtism jew-bashing is pretty freakin high where we at. I remember that a few years ago, the egyptian populace was so ecstatic over this new TV series called "a knight without a horse" that the jews worldwise condemned for mentioning "the Protocols of the elders of Zion" and stating that it was a fact. People wanted to see this show because they wanted to see "Mohamed Sobhy (the actor) beating the jews".
A better indication is "The Passion of the christ". Huge amounts of Muslims promoted seeing this movie, not because they liked Jesus, but because, in their eyes, showed the evil true nature of the Jews. The movie was a huge hit in Egypt man, with more muslims seeing it than christians. I guess that's what the ADL was afraid of when it was fighting this movie, you know?
correction : it's "you can never trust a jew"
Well, I don't know about any of you but I know I feel better :)
Crap! I guess I can cross out Egypt for my honeymoon. Thats ok, I was hoping to travel around France in rented car anyways!
scorekeeper, get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "sarcasm". (geez)
Oh, and I might be a left wing jew who enjoys the occasional episode of "Masterpiece Theater" on PBS, but I RESENT the fact that you refer to me as "coddled".
I have never been "coddled" in my life! Even during the crucial first three years after birth where coddling could have been really useful for my character development :)
Scorekeeper, get some coffee!! You don't know what you are saying!
And SM, keep up the great work.
I meant "obvious" as in the people themselves realize that the douchbag politicians are using the whole "jew excuse" again as to why they are such bad leaders. And it was a question, hence the "?"
As for the gay bashing, I know this is racists but I do expect better from America than a curropt police state.
I don't see it being equivlant to the situation in the Arab world at all!! As far as I know, gay Americans aren't fleeing to Cuba to avoid being "honor killed".
Scorekeeper, I am Mr. Zionist! Why the hell do you think I spent all that time at that "Zionist Training Camp" in Montreal? To meet Chicks?
Egypeter, I went to Egypt before the intefata during my bar-mitzvah in Israel.
I was really moved by the beauty but saddened by the poverty and open curroption.
I remember a pretty young girl, maybe 10 years old, smiling as she begged for money in Caro... it was one of the saddest things I have ever seen.
Man, thank g-d for pro-diversity westearn secular neo-liberal capitolism...
I really hope we get over our post-colonists guilt and maybe start promoting our values again before the Muslim Brotherhood, Hizballa, and Islamic Jihad completely take over.
Don't feel too bad guys, there is hate enough going around in the rest of the "free" world to make you not look so bad.
The Aussie's are just now letting their hate and racism show a little. American's hide theirs pretty good, but racism is alive and doing very well in America.
In fact it might come out in a big way soon. Like when there is another big killing of Americans.
It is also coming out because of all the illegals coming over our southern border, like millions each year.
Its tough, when you are a WASP (white person) and you are told you can't have a job unless you speak mexican. Its tough when you see everyone else getting "special considerations" and you don't' because your white.
Its tough, when they can have classes in public schools on Islam, but not Christanity.
Its tough, when colleges can have rallies and conferences on Islam, but not Christanity.
Its tough, when high schools and colleges don't want military recruiters but teach anti-american and anti-government to American kids.
Just wait and look for it. Its coming to you all in living color with surround sound, soon, direct from the good ol' USA.
And we will do it up right, it will make the riots and unrest in the rest of the world look like kid stuff.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
Sandmonkey,
Although I'll once have to agree with everything you said about the level of anti semitism in Egypt, I think we shouldn't confuse absolute anti semitism with opposition to Israeli occupation and brutal methods, a line blurred by most Egyptians by the way, who tend to think of jews and the occupation as one. It's quiet unfair to equate honest and warranted criticism of Israel to anti semitism, in fact doing this in itself is a disservice to any fair minded jew (usually they tend to be left wing and watch PBS), making Israel one of the few countries whose actions go with absolute legal and moral impunity. Also to be fair to Egyptians, they haven't been always like that, there was a time as recent as the mid fifties when, to the majority of Egyptians, being a jew was a non issue, which wasn't the case in Europe or the US.
Jordan, if you come to Egypt for your honey moon, no one will touch you, I bet you that you'll meet an Egyptian or two who'll start bad mouthing the Palestinians once he knows you're jewish, Egyptians are just too hypocritical or call it polite or nice, to express their real feelings.
"making Israel one of the few countries whose actions go with absolute legal and moral impunity"
Israel has the absolute hands down best human rights record in the middle east and treats muslims better then Arab countries! (turkey gets the coveded runner-up award)
It is the only country where moslem women can march in the Gay Pride Parade while at the same time serving as an elected leader in a fully domacratic government!
I am not going to defend everything Israel has ever done (man, what the hell were we thinking when we built those stupid settlements after 67... damn ultra-nationalist torah-thumping jerks!), but compared to other countries that have to deal with Islamic terrorism, Israel is actually pretty damn good!
Besides, the idea that Arabs/Iranian leaders will acknowledge that the Holocaust is not a "myth" once the Palestinians are given the freedom to become their own Islamic Police state is crazy!!!
I am not defending the occupation, I am just saying that the idea that 300 million arabs actually give a rats ass about Palestinians (who are not welcome in any Arab country except Jordan) is insane.
The President of Iran couldn't care less about the PEOPLE of Palestine, he just hates jews. The fact that Iran will give a billion dollars to finance child suicide bombers but give NOTHING to build schools and hospitals should be a good indication of their intentions.
Egypeter, i wish you and SM weren't so honest and critical of your country... it really is sad to hear this from such a good people!
Is there anything that can be done to help? Should we be airing "The Daily Show" or "Seinfeld" in arabic?
Its interesting, in Canada I just take it for granted that I will never be insulted or attacked because I am a jew. It never happened to me once!
And in fact, on the rare occasion when a jewish school is burnt, muslims are the first to stand by our side.
Maybe its just too hot in the middle east!!! :)
Oh, and Mohamed, sorry I went all "Israel is a diverse democracy" on your ass...
I have to remember to take my ritilan with my morning Cheereos or I am zionists-bitchy all day!
The Iranians call me a 'monkey and a pig' the question I have am I a monkey on even days and a pig on odd days or is it the other way around? I have to tell the wife what to make for dinner?
Egypeter,
You're just reiterating my point, that Egypt was a more tolerant country vis-à-vis Europe for the last 1000 years, and sorry, not the form of tolerance you've mentioned that we were a little better than the Nazis, we were more tolerant than the west period, maybe I was only wrong about the time line, ok, not the mid fifties, maybe the early fifties, and by the way, not only the jews had their property and money confiscated by Nasser, most wealthy Egyptians had it too, my grand father was left with nothing.
I've never denied the current rise in prejudice and bigotry in Egypt, I'm just saying that it wasn't always that way.
As for Jordan comments, I won't defend any of the Arab countries, but I have to revisit the notion about Israel being the democratic equal rights oasis amid a sea of backwardness, because simply it isn't, apart from the occupation, Israeli Arabs there (I mean 1948 arabs) don't have equal rights, from its inception Israel recognized two forms of personal status, ezrahut "citizenship" and leom "nationality or peoplehood", leoms are entitled to supplementary material benefits, ultra ortodox and national religious schools are heavily subsidized, arabs have their own system, segregated and underfunded, whole neighborhoods, even towns are segregated, in a nutshell, a defacto apartheid.
Also about it being the only country in which a moslem woman can be democraticaly elected into office, doesn't it really seem strange to you that in any moslem country where a free election is held they almost always elect a woman, from secular Turkey, to nutty Pakistan, here's the list:
Tansu Chiller in Turkey, Benazeer Bhuto in Pakistan, Khalda Dia in Bangladesh (they only elect women there) and Megawaty Sukarno in Indonesia.
What's up with the "Alabama" stuff?
Israel couldn't have stauncher supporters or stronger friends in the US Congress.
As for gay bashing, you're sadly misinformed, jordan.
And don't even think of the race card. Alabama is a highly integrated society.
It’s one of the better kept secrets in America because it keeps people like you from wanting to move there and that’s a real plus.
"Israel has the absolute hands down best human rights record in the middle east and treats muslims better then Arab countries! (turkey gets the coveded runner-up award)"
Israel's record of aggression, torture, occupation, and injustice proves the above statement wrong.
An Israeli only can utter such B.S. on the internet but muslims in the occupied land will say the exact opposite!
Jordan, get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Intifada". (geez)
Israelis will only gain respect when they give people their rights and Palestinians are treated equally.
Finally, Jordan you are full of crap with an enphasis on big capital Crap.
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Hey SM,
This is almost the same topic but different angle.
http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2005/12/iran-is-not-only-intimidating-israel.html
Man, I just can't get any love around here.
First I am critised for not being zionist enough, then for taking a pot shot and Alabama's world famous progressive culture, then finally for being too zionist!
They told me it would be this way in Zionist Training Camp... I didn't want to believe them :(
oh, here we go...
"It’s one of the better kept secrets in America because it keeps people like you from wanting to move there and that’s a real plus."
Actually, I think its the lack of a functional economy that keeps people like me from not being there :)
i swear I chose "Alabama" at random... what are the chances that the one literate guy from Alabama with an internet connection is a fan of SandMonkey?! (ok, last low blow at Alabama's expense... i swear)
"Israel's record of aggression, torture, occupation, and injustice proves the above statement wrong."
Nope, I am afraid it still true.
Your not going to believe this, but several (all) nations have some type of injustice. The secret in not being jewish or american, that way no one notices! (lucky china.. they get away with everything!)
And I don't think fighting terrorism has ever made a country look good.
But unfortinately, there are 22 Arab states and just by shear coincedence, 22 Arab police states. (Jordan and Yemen are not too bad though... hey we have to give credit for trying!)
Thus putting Israel in top spot for diversity, education, freedom, and tolerance... if only by default!
An Israeli only can utter such B.S. on the internet but muslims in the occupied land will say the exact opposite!
I'm Israeli?! Well, that would explain my excessive back hair! (true story, the lazer that made my back silky smooth was made in israel)
Actually, not only will they say the exact opposite, some will say their fondness of Hitler's Mein Kamp (still a best seller) and how much they are looking forward to Iran nuking the hell out of us!
Jordan, get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Intifada". (geez)
Hey, now you are being a jerk by ripping off a line I used to make another guy look like a jerk!
Israelis will only gain respect when they give people their rights and Palestinians are treated equally.
Ok Ok... you win! The jews will move to occupied New Orleans. Then Hamas and Islamic Jihad will transform Palestine into a diverse rule-of-law democracy!
(hey, it could happen)
Finally, Jordan you are full of crap with an enphasis on big capital Crap.
Can't we have one debate where the token zionist is not reffered to human extrament?!
Well thats it for me SandMonkey, thanx for giving me something to do on this dull thursday!
The truth is that Arabs trust Jews more than they trust themselves and each other. That is the core of the problem. That is why they hate Jews, because they cannot stand seeing anyone living a better life in a democracy despite of all the boycott and war we have done to that small nation. When will Muslims start having tolerance to other minorities??? instead of jealousy, envy, pride, shame and paranoia.
To all who have posted comments concerning the latest rant by SM:
The biggest overall problem plaguing the egyptian ppl is overwhelming ignorance and lack of opportunity, the biggest proof of which is the current success of the brotherhood and the now ever prevalent anti-semitism of egyptians.
Concerning the brotherhood: in campagning the brotherhood never mentioned how they were going to deal with the pressing issues plaguing Egypt like education, health care, the economy, and most importantly the poverty which egyptians have become increasingly apathetic too because of its enormity. Instead the brotherhood hid like cowards behind their slogan to acertain themselves as islamists which ofcourse entails that they're God-fearing pios egyptians who will look after our best interests before theirs. How did the public react to this-by not questioning them(ignorance) and supporting them wholehearted, how do you explain this, local imams under the brotherhoods payroll in their friday sermon preach Quranic values with a little dose of politics on the side. The choice is clear for simple egyptians who don't know any better. Brotherhood supporters have told me that its their "religious duty" to put the brotherhood in power. This statement alone is very alarming, the brotherhood is capitalising using Islam as a political tool, what happens when they fail, where does that active "religious duty" go, it turns into religious strife and violence! I'm sorry for the apocalytic view that I hold but you have to see brotherhood supports and students on the streets and in universities to know what I'm talking about.
Concerning the ever-so-present anti-semitism in Egyptians: Its true, all along Egypts history there has been a visible Jewish commuinty which made egypt their home and didn't want it any other way, up until the 50's that is! The revolution took place, Nasser became head of state and unfortunatly for Egypts diversity the Egyptian Jews felt the wrath of Arab nationalism. Three wars later and Egyptians still hate Jews, or is it Israelis? I myself would like to know the answer to that if Egyptians make a distinction between Jews and Israelis?
All I can comment on is my own experience with the issue, last year I embarked on a trip to the holy land, I backpacked all through Israel and Palestine and had an amazing time doing it, I learned a lot about Israelis and Egyptians on that trip. For one thing I learned that Egyptians
don't know jack shit about Israelis and why is that, because we're not allowed to go to israel. To go to israel with appropriate documentaion is like the everest of bearucratic bullshit, you thought getting your army papers was a headache then get ready for a brain tumour. Get this, you have to have the signature and approval from the minister of interior and they tell you that "amn dawla" (national police) and "el mukhabarat" (secret service) will follow you as long as they see fit, thats besides the months of paper work and high-up connections which are a must to obtain permission to go. Those are the facts, to most egyptians, they don't even know they have the option of going, its a forbidden place, its taboo to even talk about it. Most egyptians are like "Go to israel, are you crazy, do you wanna get kidnapped in the middle of the night and buried alive in the desert", those are some of the common thoughts associated with a trip to israel.
So I went to Israel and had an amazing time, met some great people, and even got laid, woohoo! When I was hitchhiking through Galilee I got picked up by hadistic jews, those freaky looking dudes looking like grimreepers with funky side burns and cool hats. I couldn't believe that they picked me up in the middle of the highway and drove me to my hostel and all they wanted to talk to me about was soccer. I saw a very human mundane side to Israeli people unlike the blood thirsty homewrecking side we're told about in egypt. One of my friends even told me that israelis don't shower, which simply proves my point of egyptians not knowing jack about israelis. I learned something very interesting about egyptians though, when i came back to egypt, I came back on bus through sinai, so I went through Taba, Nuweiba, Dahab all places which Israeli tourists frequently visit. I talked to the egyptians there and they loved Israelis and its not because their livelyhood depends on Israeli tourists, I know this because they never mentioned it. They simply told me how kind hearted, generous and funny Israelis are, now that coming from egyptians was a culture shock to me, and I'm egyptian. They had one advantage over other egyptians in the rest of the country, they had actually met them and talked to them. So in conclusion I tell all egyptians to get to know Israelis before you cast judgement, sure we went to war with them but we also made peace with them.
My message to Mahdi Akef is fuck off man, leave us alone, your the cancer plaguing the middle-east and Egypt, you wanna go to war again with Israel, you go fight, in my opinion the Gov. shouldn't have let you out of prison. A warlord and hatemonger, you should be stripped of your citizenship and sent to Iran, you can live on Islamboli street, better yet they'll name a street after you.
Maged
Egypeter, Maged, Scorekeeper, Mike, it's really hard to mistake the absolutist tones in your writings, your level of hate towards arabs and moslems (you showed no or little at best differentiation between extremists and moderates) is beyond deniability, voiding the feasibilty of any rational and good faith discussion, and I won't go ahead and list the daily hate speech and vilification of arabs and moslems here in the US. I didn't see SM or any of you all worked up about it, as you did with our MB idiot, that's because the likes of you in the west and the likes of Akef in Egypt are two sides of the same coin, uncompromising, extremist, hate mongers, in a funny way both sides are identical.
To be fair I think the only one that I can have a reasonable, meet half way, discussion with here is Jordan, who, out of all the crazy people on this blog was singled out to be trashed by twosret, good argument twosret, but absolutely wrong person.
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Listen it all comes down to: just because many arab nations are fucked up, oppressive, anti-semetic, won't take in palestinians, whatever, DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE ISRAELI STATE DOES NOT PERPETRATE MASSIVE WAR CRIMES AND OTHER FORMS OF ABUSE. jeez, just because the arabs are messed up, doesn't make the Israelis right.
Scorekeeper,
If you really live in the US and think that I can't cite the intensity of hate speech and vilification of arabs and moslems by (explicitly and implicitly) radio talk shows,printed publications, and by armagedonist preachers , then you're either living in a cave, or you think that I'm living in a cave and will be stunned and paralyzed by your challenge, or you see it and hear it everyday but don't consider that to be hate speech (after all, those people are speaking the truth and aren't intimidated by political correctness crap)which proves my point about your fascistic tendencies, listing everything said or written is a herculian task. I can just give you a sample and you can check their websites and check out their books and talk shows, although I'm sure, being the right wing nut you are, you're familiar with all those names, most of those people are frequent guests on Fox news by the way
Ann Coulter:"We must invade their countries kill their leaders and convert them to christianity".
Michel Malkin:Advocates puting moslems in internment camps.
Michael Savage:Lamented about "How could the military imprison a hero like Charles Graner (the abo ghrabe prison pervert) instead of giving him a medal?".
Tom Tancrido (Colorado Congressman):"In the case of another attack, we should nuke Mecca"
Robert Spencer: Wrote a revisionist history of the crusades as a glorious event of human history.
Hugh Fitzgerald (Robert Spencer's minion):Openly advocates boycotting all US moslems, insisting there's nothing called a moderate moslem
Ariana Fallaci (she's italian, but she's the god mother of all hate speech): " There's nothing such as a moderate moslem, let alone a good moslem"
I can go on non stop, but I have to get back to work.
Scorekeeper said:
"I empathize with some of the points you make. But if you're advocating mass violence, the way the Muslim world "justifies" suicide bombing (only against Jews or Americans of course) then I don't. I assume/hope you're just blowing off some steam."
First off, Muslims justify the murder bombers by their hatred of anything or anyone not believing in Islam as the one and only religion. They justify it by saying the infidels are only good for killing or raping, or taxing and being their slaves.
I don't think I or any Americans fall into any group like that..do you?
Yes, there was a lot of steam there but also laced with truth and the knowledge that Americans won't sit by and let violence go unpunished and/or harm come to our families.
Yes, we do know that the ballot is the first and most preferable way of solving problems. But we also know that sometimes it is not enough or doesn't work as advertised.
The USA is not your tame, europfied, completely civil image that most people have of us. We are the best and can be the worst. Like the Marine saying: "We can be your best friends or your worse enemies."
My view of racism is most likely not exactly what yours is. Its not white against brown or black but against cultures, groups or religions that do harm to their followers or to others. BTW, "harm" is not just violence, it can be many things, such as economic or teaching our kids that Islam is the religion of peace, or that illegals have the same rights and privilages as anyone else.
Consider what "groups" I (and many others) know are becoming dangerous and/or causing harm to our families, friends and country.
Like Islam
Like Mexican Gangs.
Like Black Gangs
Like Skinhead Nazis.
Like the KKK.
Like White Supremacists.
Like Redneck Idiots.
Violence and civil unrest and revolt will occur if our local, state and federal government can not or will not protect our families and us.
We won't shoot, torture or abuse illegal mexicans, muslims or others...unless they do us harm and no action or punishment is forthcoming by our local, state or federal agencys.
We know what happens if you don't have a black and white case of self protection.
You get sued, put in jail and they can get your home, land and vehicles, leaving you poor in jail but much wiser.
But much more pissed.
I am just letting you know that the boiling point is not too far in the future and that unless the powers that be, start doing something to not only protect us but to stop this slide into the liberal anti-american, anti-government PC madness there is going to be big trouble and much unrest and revolt by "Average Americans".
I hope its just with elections, but it just might not be.
Individual Americans usually don't gather together and just have a riot. Not even the kids. Americans are individuals and may have some gangs and/or groups of like minded individuals but mass riots are just not our thing.
What you will see is people being killed, wounded or beaten senseless and in the hospital if..if the American public loses confidence in its law enforcement agencys.
We take care of our own.
If we don't think the ones that are supposed to take care of us can or will.
Well, lets just say we will take care of our own, one way or the other.
Oh, a little off topic, but on target, the people in the largest building in the world have just now come to the conclusions I have known for over a year.
Read about it.
The Pentagon Breaks the Islam Taboo
Oh, yea, I don't hate muslims just their "religion". I know its not their fault, they are just brainwashed. I know they are really good people that have been led down the wrong path.
I'm sure that with a little counciling they can be made to see that Islam needs to be revised and made into a proper peaceloving religion.
Yea, right.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
What a bunch of pro israeli idiots. Let me rub my eyes again and read "arabs love and can trust Israelis"? did I just read that?
What a fucking bullshit. Mike you wasted already half a page to post. It must have struck a nerve you moron.
"Like Islam"
Like Mexican Gangs.
Like Black Gangs
Like Skinhead Nazis.
Like the KKK.
Like White Supremacists.
Like Redneck Idiots.
Let us add to the list above
Like Zionist
Like Jews
Like Israelis
Now the list is complete
If you really want to know why the Israel Palestine conflict will not end (any time soon), you need to look at a map. This has very little to do with ideology or "right of return" so much as the existence of Palestine as a state requires several things, all of which guarantee economic freedom and is why the US has pressed for Israel to provide contiguous borders for Palestine uninterrupted by Israel border intrusions.
Palestine has little arable land that can be farmed to create enough produce and a variety that would provide for self sufficiency or enough trade in specific goods to allow for off setting imports that did not make Palestine an eternal indebted and failed state.
Secondly, access to ports for exportation of any goods is extrememly limited. In fact, Israel controls the economic viability of Palestine and any Palestinian government worth its salt knows that, to have a state control its economy by controlling its ability to produce and export is a security risk that not even the US would tolerate on a good day (why we project power into the ME; it ain't all about oil, but it is about things like heavily trafficked international trade routes from the east to the west).
In fact, if Palestine as a state could exist within the totality of the Israel/Palestine border, they would have access to an abundance arable land and ports.
The problem is, people have let the propaganda regarding ideological differences get in the way of reality. Both the support for Israel and those who support Palestine have bought into the high minded ideological concepts so they can pretend that the other side is the agressor and they are the victims.
It's not true. The agressor is both states because Israel knows that, as soon as they give Palestine an accessible port that they do not control, Palestine will import greater weapons, build up a military and seek to complete the war that came to a halt almost 40 years ago.
Don't think that that won't happen. Groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and even Fatah do not get overwhelming support in these areas because people believe they are searching for peace.
Two other problems exist, and its not all Israel's problem. Jerusalem will not be settled by any contiguous borders issue. The question of the al Aqsa mosque and the wailing was and Abrahams burial place will continue to be a point of contention since it can be said, should Palestine take control of the area, Jews could not come and worship.
Palestine does not even guarantee the safety of its own citizens from extra judicial executions, much less the safety of a non-citizen. At least, at this time, Muslims worship at Al Aqsa, Christians go to Bethlehem and Jews can visit the wailing wall. All in relative safety. A state that cannot offer that cannot own that site.
Last, I will add that the Palestinian problem is deepseated. It is a group of people who have made an industry out of victimhood and war. That is what they know. That is what they can do. Whether the ability for Palestine to have contiguous borders and uninterrupted trade routes will end any fight is highly questionable when the entire life blood of a country for 50 years has been making war, supporting war. That is the entire premise of the existence of Hamas and Hezballah.
Neither of these groups are going to suddenly morph into totally political social groups without military wings. If it did, the purpose of their existence would be gone and so would they. No organization is going to give that up litely.
Frankly, all other issues beyond the land, ports and economic viability are BS. And, Palestinians are not simply victims, they are equally agressors even if they do not use a tank (which I believe they would if they had it).
And, the support of Palestine by Arabs against israel is not about Jews or love of Palestinians. Again, look at the map. There was a reason that Hussein the Hashemite wanted an Arab state that extended to Syria, Lebanon and "Palestine". The same reason that Palestine as it is, is not economically viable. He knew that he needed viable land and access to ports to the Mediterannean since the European continent was and is an important first choice for trade and economic viability. Further, it would have protected their interest in the Suez Canal area, also necessary for exports and imports to and from the region to Europe and beyond.
Whoever controls the Suez Canal controls the economic viability of the region. Israel setting on the very cusp and very capable of fighting for it, presents an economic threat. Of course, if there was peace and free trade, a compact of national security among the states to even include the protection of Israel, this would be a non question.
However, its pretty hard to turn around 100 years of propaganda about the evil Jews, particularly after it has become the base of a religion.
Palestine and Israel are going to last forever in war, with or without our interference until both sides are tired of fighting and dying and both sides decide that their best bet is to form an economic alliance. Without it, its all war all the time.
Kat, that was a wonderful and insightful response! I am really impressed!
Scorekeaper, what is with your opposition to PBS. I am pro-Israel and I love PBS, I actually am a paying member and I am Canadian!
Have you seen their Frontline reports on the middle-east?
Thanx Kat for the insight on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, everyone gets caught up in the whole hatred between Arabs and Jews, that people don't take the time to really ask the important questions afflicting both sides.
And to Scorekeeper thanx for posting my letter on your blog, much appreciated.
To Mohamed, bro you got me all wrong, I'm really saddened that you think you can't meet me half-way, I'm very liberal, but very angry at the same time at the people who are trying to take away my limited freedoms here in Egypt and who spread senseless hate towards Jews and Christians for no other reason then being Jewish and Christian, so the mere existence of a Jew or Christian is provocating enough to hate them, I don't understand that and I refuse to beleive thats become the nature of good hearted Egyptians. You know as well as I do, how hospitable, kind, and funny egyptians are, so how do you explain the current intolerance and narrow-mindedness egyptians have towards anyone alien in idealogy, culture, religion, and even skin colour-the government refuses to recognise Nubians as a diverse people and culture in Egypt so as not to burden them with any kind of responsibilty. Also white or fair-skinned people usually being rich but not always, tend to want to marry other white or fairskinned people. My explaination of this downward trend of social values is the stagnation of intellectual free thought substituted by mechanical almost computer-like thought promoted by gov. and clergy who tell us not to think outside certain parameters.
Mohamed, do you not agree that the wrong people are in power in Egypt, its either corrupt politicians or savy Islamists, who both alike are united in one goal, SEIZE POWER, how, by waging war on liberals, intellectuals, and on anyone who critizes them in anyway.
Lets not forget the assasination attempt on our beloved father of Arab literature Naguib Mahfouz, now the Islamists send him apologies on his birthdays from prison.
The persecution faced by Taha Hussein for being liberal and a reformist of thought, his books banned in Egypt, the government literally threatening any institution that would hire him, now hes a national hero.
Lets not forget how journalists get kidnapped in the middle of night for exposing the regimes shortcomings. There are numerous other examples of intellectuals who are persecuted in Egypt for advocating liberal thought, I don't know why the Egyptian system dampens creativity and kills the soul of ever realising our dreams. The only people who have opportunities are the affluent and elite with foreign educations.
How much has really changed since pre-revolution Egypt, yea we've come a long way since then, thank God those days are over, now we have free education, yet ilitarcy is at a staggering 57.7%, now we have free healthcare, do you really wanna see what Cairo University Hospital looks like, I invite you to come and see how poor patients are treated, I'm there everyday.
Being Egyptian, lets agree on one thing, and I think Sandmonkey is with me on this one, Menatalities are this nations biggest obstacle, thats whats got to change.
In the words of the late Bob Marley, "Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but our selves can free our minds"
Maged
Answering points:
1) Israel does not have any route east south or north. All Arab countries are pretty much cut off to them.
Wrong. You have any idea how many Arab states actually have secret eceonomic compacts with Israel, including Jordan (actually, not that secret, but not announced everydayd) and Egypt. Secondly, it's not Israel that needs the routes to the Arabs, its the Arabs that need the routes to the mediterranean. This would help speed oil exports, for one.
As a state with many ports that can bring material easily and securely in and out of their country, that has a robust manufacturing industry, all they need is oil, and they get it. In return, they import raw materials, export completed quality goods, have a well educated group of people, import most food stuff and export specific food stuff.
They don't actually need much from the Arabs except, oil.
2) Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and Turkey are all Arab and/or Islamic countries with tremendous port.
Tremendous ports, but, Saudi Arabia oil exports must go by pipe through Syria, Lebanon and Turkey to Europe or must be shipped from their ports and go through the Suez Canal or around the horn of Africa. all of which are owned by different countries, all of which costs money in taxes, transportation, maintenance, etc.
You have to think through the entire economic process.
Of course, there is the thing where, if they could get "Palestine" back, it would relieve some of these states from their burdensome welfare clients (whom they created, but hey!)
3) Hong Kong has NO arable land whatsoever.
Quite right, as I just explained, the point about arable land is about self sustainment if you have no other economic means. As I note, not only does Palestinian territory have limited land, but limited trade routes and port access for goods. Both together make the problem.
Hong Kong survives because of its location as a port for transfering goods, fueling ships, buying and trading product, etc. But, it has ports.
4) Arabs in Gaza have spoken about how the land the Jews made money growing things, even now was cursed. Nothing would ever grow there. When there is a will, opportunity some hard work and ingenuity anything can be done.
Okay. Let's go a little farther. Arable land is produced by what? Water. Water rights is one of the other main obstacles (we are talking fresh water). Israel created a system of dams and canals to obtain the water, from the river Jordan and the main lake of the area. For Palestine to create the same effect, they would also need to divert water which would effect the amount of water flowing into the Israeli system. Water sharing is one other aspect of non-ideological problems that affects the conflict. a viable solution must be determined that would not undermine Israel's ability to produce. It is, in fact, one of the reasons that they continue to hold certain areas because water or lack there of, is a national security issue for any country in the ME. It is also one of the reasons that Israel has invested in significant desalinization technology to try to protect against the logical outcome of a successful incursion against water outlets that could be used to starve or "dehydrate" Israel into submission through modern siege warfare.
At the same time, this is a significant concern for Palestine since the control of water by Israel presents the same national security threat.
5) If you look at the conflict for what it really is an - ARAB - ISRAELI conflict... then look at the map of the Middle East and look at Israel and ask yourself why with Trillions in Oil the Palis and much of the Arab world is pretty impoverished?
I never said the Arab states were brilliant economists. The fact is, these states have done very little in investing in other industry which, in the ME, is still limited by the amount of arable land and water rights that could significantly bolster and industrialization of their economies. Also, the fact is, profits are heavily distributed at the top levels of these regimes to rulers, cronies and purchasing lots of military equipment instead of finding other ways to create industry. The few UAE states on the east coast have done better because they have fostered tourism and have gotten an influx of retail and rental revenue from the presence of US forces.
Until then, read my above explanation about increasing ports or areas for exportation of oil and by passing the multiple middle men who all take their share of the revenue pie as the oil goes by.
6) You underestimate the power of religion, ideology and rejectionism.
No, I don't. I never said that the average Palestinian or a member of Hezballah is not motivated by ideology. However, you may note that most of the leadership of the PA has been secular in nature with contacts to these other groups as cooperation to press their needs when necessary. These secular leaders are not complete idiots. They understand the needs of Palestine.
On the other hand, we are talking classic insurgencies and, if you read my own posts on the subject, classic insurgencies do not motivate followers by talking about fighting for water rights or improving access to ports or even the possiblity of industrialization.
People are motivated and drawn together based on the most common denominator. Classic insurgencies need to establish several items in their declarations to attract and keep followers. In most cases, they will invoke a "moral authority" like God or "the people" as an all inclusive motivator that attempts to define their causes for "the people". God being the moral authority to start wars when there is no other moral authority, like an appropriate state function, that declares and wages wars and has authority to negotiate.
As long as they need to fight, they need to motivate and God has been an excellent motivator. And, you missed my comment about 100 years of propaganda (ie, declarations and motivations to get the widest number of supporters) that is not easily deprogrammed. However, that does not necessarily equate as the only reason savvy Palestinian leaders would continue to fight with Israel.
Unfortunately, as democracy progresses, for a short while the Islamist parties will have parliamenary power and that is guaranteed to increase friction. since most people don't understand the land and resources issue and they have imbibed the ideological war of Hezballah (Iranian supported and for a reason: ie, influence across the ME to help secure more power over OPEC and the region in general), they vote these guys in because that's their buy in for the war.
If Hezballah got everything they wanted and the Jews suddenly disappeared, Iran would be the big dog on the blog and its highly unlikely that the Palestinians would actually be free.
But, why do you think Amenadjid has been making inflammatory remarks against Israel?
7) The Israelis have been tired of fighting and dying for years. That's why Arafat thought they were for the taking after they withdrew from Lebanon and actually offered him virtually all of the Territories and part of Jerusalem.
That's true, but it takes two to tango. I believe the Palestinians are tired too. However, tired of fighting and just laying down and letting another state control your entire future or kill it is a fight for existence and nobody is going to lay that down.
Frankly, Arafat made a big fat mistake in hopes to gain more. Plenty of leaders have done that, but it doesn't necessarily negate the premise of war for land and resources (whatever motivates the average Palestinians to continue on in war).
As a matter of fact, if you've read these treaties you would find lots of details about land and resources.
It just doesnt get talked about because its not as sexy as revolutions against "the man" and blowing stuff up for Allah.
Oh..nearly forgot. egypt has a treaty with Israel. They don't need their ports, but Israel abutts the Sinai which contains the Suez which is a major source of imports and exports from the ME and Asia which generates all sorts of industry and revenue.
Their major concerns, security wise, are not ports or land, but the protection of the Suez AND the fact that they have a large Palestinian refugee populace whose problems and ideology has infiltrated the Egyptian culture along with such great Islamic manifesto writers like Qutb, creating the potential for instability. Thus, as long as Palestine/Israel is unsettled, egypt is at risk. Palestine will be a problem until it is economically viable. Thus, Egypt has a direct national security problem which forces them on one hand to have relations (limited as they are) with Israel and must continue to advocate for Palestinian state and self rule.
Frankly, I believe that the Egyptian government, autocratic as it is, is better acquainted with reality than any ideological argument with Israel and probably wouldn't care two sh!ts in a hand bucket about its existence if the potential for over flow violence was constantly on their radar.
sorry..."wasn't constantly on their radar".
What is this long posts is all about? The Jews crucified Jesus Christ and voted for his death.
Why are you going in circles with desperate attempts to change history?.
Strange people with a lot of time on their hands :)
Question Was life in the west bank better under the Jordians or under Arafat? Jordan is one of the better run states at this point and if the west bank was part of it the question of economic and political vialbilty would be much better. Between 48-67 how come no one spoke of a Palestine state? Most Israeli's have no desire to control gaza and the west bank. For real peace the ave. Israeli would accept a Pali state. The problem we have is that groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizzballah want to commit genocide. And then there is Iran which says Israel should be wiped off the map. Only a fool would not understand that this is genocide.
Wow, how did comments on the MB antisemetic remarks get into this?
Ok, I won't get involved in the palestine/Israel debate thing. Just do not have the energy.
As for the Mel Gibson movie, let me explain what I meant. The movie can be viewed in 2 ways : One way is the way the christians view it: the story of jesus crucifiction and what he stands for. A profession of their faith if you will. The accusation by the jews and all that is an afterthought. Not to mention it showed some of them rabbis protesting the crucifiction, so it showed that not all jews are like that. That was the end of that discussion.
The other way is the way the jews (and the muslims who went and saw this movie) saw it: A movie showing the jews actively campaigning for the torture and murder of an innocent man. The Muslims don;t believe Jesus is god nor that he was crucified, but that wasn;t the point. The Point was that Jesus was a good man and he was falesly accused, and subsequently tortured and murderd because of the Jews'accusations. To the egyptian muslims seeing this movie, it validated their belief that the Jews are indeed wicked, evil and connyving liars. And that's not my theory, that's what people actually said in interviews after viewing that movie. That's all there is to it!
Anon said:
"What is this long posts is all about? The Jews crucified Jesus Christ and voted for his death."
"Why are you going in circles with desperate attempts to change history?."
Isn't that what YOU just did?
1) The jews did not crucify Jesus. The Romans did.
2) Jesus was a JEW. His religion was JUDAISM, not Christianity. WHat is it that people have so much trouble understanding about this?
I saw the movie, and didn't see any of the things that other people claim to have seen. People see what they wanna see, you know? If you want to find a reason to hate the Jews, you don't need to watch a movie to do that.
Sandmonkey, considering that Moslems do not believe Jesus was crucifed, and was therefore not resurrected, and therefore did not die for the sins of man (which pretty much is the central point of Christianity) then which part of that movie do they believe? That confuses me.
According to muslim belief, Christianity is a false religion, because it's based on a lie. (the death of Jesus)
And now muslims blame the Jews for doing something that Islam claims never happened?
Considering Islam is based on Judaism and Christianity, I find both of those propositions difficult to accept. Am I the only one who thinks moslems are tearing down the foundations of their own religion? Christians bashing Jews is stupidity. Moslems bashing Christains and Jews both is even worse stupidity. But at least moslems have an excuse. Most moslems know nothing at all about the Christianity or Judaism, even though they are the basis for Islam. Christians don't have that excuse. Most of the Torah is included in our Bible as the Old Testament and we know it well.
If we can't get religion out of politics, we are all going to die. Every last one of us.
Craig,
Jesus was born by a Jewish mother and father but he is not Jewish by religion. He is Christ, Christian etc....
He was convicted by the Jewish priests, they were the reason why he was crucified not just the romans.
Please review history closely.
"Jesus was born by a Jewish mother and father but he is not Jewish by religion. He is Christ, Christian etc...."
Mary, you are wrong. Christianity didn't even EXIST until after Jesus died. His followers were known as Nazarenese, a sect of Judaism. You are just wrong on this. The religion Jesus practiced while he was alive was Judaism, and that's the reason Jewsish leader opposed him... because they thought he was teaching Judaism improperly.
I suspect I know quite a lot more about this than you think I do.
So, how's about that speech Bush gave tonight? What'd you guys think? :)
Maged,
I definitely agree 100% with everything you've said, I yearn for the Egypt you dream of, did I say we couldn't meet halfway? Probably I was smoking something, or I'm just confused by the huge volume of comments on this page, I've skimmed through it today and they're arguing about the passion of the Christ now? How did the discussion get there.
Poor Mohamed. He accepts that part of the propaganda he's been exposed to is a lie. He just can't make the emotional jump to the idea that ALL of it may be a lie, and that he's been tricked all his life! That's what makes even patently false propaganda effective.
Furthermore, examine the context of your quotes and comment upon them specifically and critically - don't just assume that words in and of themselves are offensive. You give up too easily, before you win your argument.
I couldn't believe that they picked me up in the middle of the highway and drove me to my hostel and all they wanted to talk to me about was soccer. Yeah, it's only dumb Americans like me who want to talk about football.
forsoothsayer: a logical possibility, but the facts don't support this.
Oh, yeah, I've posted some stuff on this here. Not my usual cup of tea, but some people seem obsessed about it.
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