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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Wednesday, January 25, 2006

Is it discrimination or integration?

I just read this post by Masreya on the questions that the germans are now asking muslims in their citizenship exams. She seems to view it as an act of discrimination, while I am not so sure. Here are some of the questions for your viewing pleasure: 1) In films, plays, and books, the religious feelings are sometimes insulted of those who have different religious beliefs. According to you which methods are acceptable for individuals to" use to fight against such religious insults and which not. 2 )How do you feel about criticism about your religion? Do you find this permissible? Could you discuss this? 3)What do you think of the statement: That a wife must obey her husband and he can hit her if she does not obey him? 4) Do you think it is permissible that a man shuts his wife and daughter into the house in order to prevent them from dishonoring him in public? 5) In Germany the police can intervene in a violent argument between a married couple, and in order to prevent further threats can send the aggressor out of the house for several days. What do you think about this? 6) Your adult daughter/your wife would like to dress like other German girls and women . Would you attempt to prevent her from doing this? If so, with what methods? and my personal favorite: 9) Imagine this: Your adult son comes to you and declares that he is a homosexual. He says that he would like to live together with another man. How would you react? LOL. I dunno about you, but that's a tough question to ask anybody, you know? But that last question aside, I am not sure that the questions are discriminatory against muslims, but are the-probably-too-late-of-an-attempt to find out if their immigrants will intergrate in the german society or just chose to live in their own neighbourhoods and traditions, doing the country inside a country thing. If anything, those questions are revealing: This is what they think of muslims now. For them we are the women opressers, the wifebeaters, the homophobes, the probable terrorists. This is what we stand for in their eyes now, and not without good reason. We live in a society where women are expected and asked to stay home, where hitting women is very common and considerd a common disciplinary action and where Jihady thinking runs around unchecked. And now they are calling us up on it. They are calling us on our crap, the crap that won't fly in Germany, that shouldn't fly anywhere, and we are pissed of course, cause we don't expect people to show us what our ugly side looks like in the mirror. We expect them to lie to us and ignore our baggage, pretend it doesn't exist. Instead of dealing with our very serious problems, we get offended and scream discrimination when someone else points them out for us, all the while we have a rise in honor killings in european countries amongst its muslim population, and the australians are issuing a cultural sensitivity booklet for their police that basically says not to treat domestic disputes in muslim households the same way they do any other household, because apparently hitting women is part of our culture, and not a single muslim leader objects to that. Which is more offensive: committing the act or being called on it? I don't know, but I think those questions are very valid ones, questions that I wish I could ask every muslim and see what their reactions and answers would be. I mean, chances are they will tell the germans what they want to hear on their test, but in all honesty I wonder if their honest-to-god answers to those questions would be the kind that would fail them such an exam, and if that's what's really so offesnive to us after all.

82 Comments:

At 1/25/2006 02:51:00 PM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

If Masreya or whomever thinks these questions are descriminating, then i am sorry to say that they are prejudiced themselves & blind.
These questions are simply meant to determine to the authorities whether or not someone can integrate in the German society or not, while preparing him to some of the issues that are not tolerated by the laws of the state he wishes to live in.
Its also good so that someone can have an idea before hand of what this country is like.
To masreya & anyone who sees this as descrimination, yoou do it all the time, when you say we are easterns & have values becaue it implies westerners are void of values & when you regard others as immoral & not good enough as you for reasons related to superficial behaviour that you yourselves commit but cover up & continue to do so because you cannot face the facts in the eye.
Anyone prejudiced (whether arab or westerner) is welcome to be offended.

 
At 1/25/2006 03:51:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Jokerman and Sandmonkey,
"We live in a society where women are expected and asked to stay home, where hitting women is very common and considerd a common disciplinary action and where Jihady thinking runs around unchecked." Do you seriously believe this statement, haven't you noticed that girls always outnumber boys at most of the top univirsities in Egypt? Haven't you noticed the disproportional ratio of women/men faculty between Egypt and the US? I had an infinite number of female teachers at Cairo university, while in the US I had none, none. And about the "where hitting women is common", could anyone of you with a clear conscience state how many actual incidents of women being hit have you witnessed or heard about?
And about the "unchecked jihady thinking", could you tell me please and try to be honest about it, how many friends do you have, (not even friends, friends of a friend of an aquaintance of an aquaintance) that you know of who has set blowing himself up as a career objective? Have you ever met such a person?
All your statements would be true if you were describing a Taliban or an al qaeda member, but for any moslem to be automatically put in the same lot until proven otherwise, that would be just an excuse for bigotry and racism, specially now that the only politically correct form of bigotry is the one directed against moslems.
Those questions view and put every moslem including yourselves through a talibanic vision regardless of anything that would suggest otherwise, so if both of you have no problems with them, then you're both are perfect subservient house slave uncle Toms.

 
At 1/25/2006 03:58:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mohamed do you ever wonder why Moslems blow themselves up daily?

 
At 1/25/2006 05:41:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Mohamed, they were a simple set of questions. In case you ahven't noticed, Europe (and Austrailai) have been having a lot of difficulty with militant moslems lately, you know? They are trying to limit their exposure... and I certainly don't blame them for it! I just think it's too late.

And soveriegn country has the right to deny citzenship to anyone they feel is undesireable.

You took this test as an attack on Islam. That's not what it is at all. They COULD just end Moslem immigration, you know? They DO have that right. If they were really that anti-Islam, that's what they'd do.

 
At 1/25/2006 06:27:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Ok let me rephrase it PC to try to put it in more perspective.
Every year for the last 3 years there's been about 10000 to 12000, yes 12000 (that's actually a silent civil war)homicides a year on average in the us, largely commited by african gangs, latino gangs, russian mob, bikers and common criminals of all races, with a moslem percentage contribution to this number close to nil, so could you please tell me PC how could moslems be more dangerous or even close to the mentioned ethnicities above?
Also, for each of those ethnicities, anyone could come up with a questionaire containing the most negative stereotypical (I won't even try to give an example or a sample question, that could get as ugly as it gets) perceptions of them by others and say, well that's the truth, your people do those things, don't they (with no differentiation whether you've got gang affiliations or not), won't anyone of any different ethnicity be offended if he was subjected to such questions and suspicion.
So similarly don't moslems have the right to be offended to be viewed by others through a Taliban or al qaeda perspective?
And if roles were reversed and someone came up with a questionaire tailored precisely to address the most vile and horrible things done in the name of the germans, would they be happily obliged to answer it with no offense taken?

 
At 1/25/2006 08:00:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Mohammed, we're back to the difference between a "hate crime" and just plain old crime. Hate crimes are many orders of magnitude more disturbing to most human beings that street crime. If one racial or religious (IMMIGRANT) group in the US was systematically vicimizing other groups based on their race or religion, rest assured that would be a VERY big deal here. Our reaction to an immigrant group that behaved that way in the US would make the Europeans and Austrailians look pretty lax. We put people in PRISON for hate crimes in America, Mohamed. As opposed to the aussies who say "oh so what if they sexually assault our young girls because they don't dress like moslems? It's part of their culture, we have to understand it..."

Yes, we're back to that discussion. You really need to understand what hate crime is. We aren't even talking about suicide bombers here, we're talking about bigotry, and a lack of respect for other people's human and civil rights.

They are only trying to filter out people who cannot adapt to living in the western world, Mohamed. There's nothing wrong with that. They have every right to enforce their own societal norms of behavior. They should have started these ideas decades ago.

 
At 1/25/2006 09:39:00 PM, Blogger Papa Ray said...

Mohamed still thinks Islam is a religion of peace instead of what it really is: The most evil, destructive Cult, ever on this planet.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

 
At 1/26/2006 12:55:00 AM, Blogger Vox Populi - Agent Provocateur said...

Well technically, there's nothing specifically anti-Islamic in this test.

It's certainly discriminatory against fanatic, sexist, homophobic and violent people.

 
At 1/26/2006 01:19:00 AM, Blogger The Sphinx said...

You know, Papa Ray, you are the typical example for somebody who doesn't know jack about Islam and judges it by the bastardized image you get to see in the meida.

What do you base your statement upon? The couple of incidents you saw in the news, triggered by a microscopic minority of this group? The opinion of somebody else who doesn't know tosh either? Or some bullcrap anti-islamic site full of prejudice and destructive criticism?

I can provide to you tons of stuff that gloriously contradicts your statement. And you can't do anything about it.

Have a nice day

 
At 1/26/2006 02:37:00 AM, Blogger Bubah3000 said...

Sandmonkey, I have been a regular reader of your blog and absolutely love it. I love both Egyptian and Israeli culture immensely and enjoy your perspective along with many of the Israeli blogs I read. So thank you for your great work and writing.

Although your comments made me pause and think about it, in the end, I have to say that I think these questions are discriminatory if they are asked only of Muslims. Maybe its the fact that I grew up in the US, but I have a real problem with any one group having a different set of criteria. If there was a "citizenship and society" test that featured the same questions for everyone, then I could accept it as Germany's right to ascertain whether people could function in German society. But given these specific questions, targeted only at Muslims, it does smack of racism.

Would it be racist, for example, if the Germans used a stereotype and asked me, as a Jewish person, about my attitudes toward money? This doesn't seem so far off from that, if only because it appears to be a Muslim-focused questionnaire.

 
At 1/26/2006 06:30:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Mohamed
You play with words. The Ratio of girls isnt a problem & its really pathetic of you to reason with it.
Women are in general mistreated in middle eastern countries with varying degrees of oppression & freedom. Women in egypt enjoy more freedom than that of Saudi Arabia, kuwait & Bahrain for example.
You cannot deny that there are Honour killings in Egypt & just 2 months ago a guy killed his own daughter for suspecting her behaviour & said he didnt regret it, how many killings oer year does this happen?
what about the Higab & the tapes & books calling for women to cover up, not to mention every custom & tradition that separate the west from the east is Female related.
but it seems you are living in denial ya mohamed, you typify the prejudiced who holds on to customs no matter what facts face him or changes arise, your problem is you do not understand how the west thinks no matter how much you delude yourself to the contrary.
& another thing for your shortsight observations,I never was a fan of the US nor am i anti american...try to understand this if you have any logical brain cells working, something i doubt very much.

 
At 1/26/2006 06:50:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If she is so offended by the questions, don't move there. Stay put. Live in your own country with its own societal norms which you feel comfortable with. mohammed the world sees islam in sharp focus these days. Your religion is the most bigoted, intolerant one on the planet. Your societies and culture do not allow for any other thought or practice. Your religion preaches violence and slavery of non believers. Your religion is smothering to woman and encourages violence against them. Your religion is no longer shrouded in mystery. We are reading your Koran and learning just how dangerous your religion is to the rest of us. If you can't integrate in any other culture because of religious beliefs stay the fuck home. I hope germany changes its immigration policies to prevent people just like you from moving there and sucking the system dry before turning on it and trying to remake it in the image of the shit hole they immigrated from. Hopefully it will start a trend in europe/Britain and then elsewhere to hold people to the standards natives have to live by. No more pandering.

Theres

 
At 1/26/2006 07:40:00 AM, Blogger The Sphinx said...

Hey anonymous

There is a MASSIVE difference between a religion that TELLS it's people to do shit, and people who do shit because of their lack of education of their own religion.

Newsflash, you're much worse than the people you're denouncing. You're prejudiced and have no f***ing idea what you're talking about. The opposite of absolutely everything you said applies. Any sane person who has a remote idea of what Islam really is wouldn't say the gibberish you just said.

Sorry to sound so compulsive, it just pisses me off to hear people thinking they're oh-so-open-minded judging my religion with prejudice.

 
At 1/26/2006 08:31:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

How are these questions graded and are any of them a non-starter?

SK

 
At 1/26/2006 08:56:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please tell me why you included bikers in your murder rate of the USA? As a biker I am very offended since the rate is almost non existant.

Since the muslim population in the USA is under 2% I'd say that if you want to play the game you are playing with numbers then you would need to look closer at that 2% and get specific numbers from that group before you make blanket statements as you have done.

Asking someone if they have seen domestic abuse is what the police used to do before everyone realized that domestic abuse is a hidden crime. You only ever see the after effects not the crime!

Once upon a time when I was a younger woman married to my first husband I was a victim of domestic abuse often. The police in these countries do a disservice to women by apply the law differently for different cultures. No one wants to be beat even if they have been told and conditioned all of their lives to accept it. I want to scream when I see western countries bend their laws this way. Where are the women's rights marchers on this issue? Silent as always on real womens rights issues.

 
At 1/26/2006 09:51:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sphinx

I stand by what I said and by the way, I never said I was open minded. In fact on this issue I'm about as closed minded as you can get. The truth is a plain as the nose on your face. We all see it everyday. I lived in a muslim country for 3 long years and have seen first hand the bullshit belief system you defend in action. Like I said if you don't like the laws/culture/rules of a country don't fucking immigrate. Stay home and make your country a better place instead of exporting your bullshit and trying to make a host country accommodate your archaic crap. I'm sick to death of the excuses for barbaric behavior. The silence of your religious leadership on terrorist acts, destruction of non-muslim places of worship, honor killings, etc., speaks very loudly and very clearly. Just like the Catholic Churches silence during the Holocaust. Same damn difference.

 
At 1/26/2006 10:10:00 AM, Blogger The Sphinx said...

In fact on this issue I'm about as closed minded as you can get.

Well that's perfect. You're closed minded and you're denouncing closed-minded people at the same time. Isn't that schizophrenic?

I said it a thousand times before and I'll say it again. You do NOT blame the religion itself for the crap that's happening in its name. The stuff you're naming here (Honour killing - Since when is there honour in murder??) has absolutely squat to do with Islam. Islam forbids all that stuff, but people who call themselves muslims do that. Who's fault is it? It's their own lack of education and lack of sense that leads to this, NOT the religion

You do not blame alcohol for the death of some victim of a car accident. You blame the person themself who was too stupid to control themselves.
You do not blame guns for killing people. You blame the gun-wielder and murderer.
You do not blame religion for the actions of some hypocrites.

Something else: I live here in Cairo, a mainly muslim society, and absolutely NOBODY from all the people I know here personally (and I know quite a lot of people) would even think of behaving the way that you describe here. What you're describing is an absolute minority, but due to the bloody media, you think all people are like that..

I'll stop here. I've said this stuff enough times already. Getting sick of it.

 
At 1/26/2006 11:06:00 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Sphinx,

"Islam forbids all that stuff, but people who call themselves muslims do that. Who's fault is it? It's their own lack of education and lack of sense that leads to this, NOT the religion"

I agree with you, and disagree with some of the other commenters here on that. But, back to the test... I don't think that was a religious test. I mean, it's simple enough to just find out if somebody is a moslem or not, if they wanted to blame all moslems for what a few do. I think the test is designed to weed out those few (or many, depending on what type of person is migrating) that you just mentioned.

 
At 1/26/2006 11:59:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It doesn't much matter what questions are asked on the test,as most people will not jeopardize their status by giving the wrong answer.To be honest,I think it's a case of too little,too late for Germany and Europe.It's partly their own fault though,for allowing millions of ME immigrants to fill low-paying positions that the native citizens refuse to take.And while we really should separate people from their religion and culture,it's easier said than done.But let's be honset about the fact that many Muslim countries lack full freedom of speech and religion,noy to mention economic opportunities and equality for women.In Saudi Arabia,women are not allowed to drive,Christian churches are illegal...and don't even think about bringing a bible or crucifix into the country!

 
At 1/26/2006 12:49:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is this test discriminatory?Absolutely. Regardless of what the questions are. I don't care if the questions were about your favorite food. If you ask the questions of one particular group of immigrants and not to everyone else then you're discriminating. If you're worried about immigrants being wife-beaters you need to ask EVERYONE what they think of wife-beating otherwise it just sounds like you only mind importing wife-beaters if they happen to be Muslim. Is a Hindu wife-beater more acceptable than a Muslim one?If yes then that's discrimination. If no then why not ask the Hindu to answer the same question?

 
At 1/26/2006 12:54:00 PM, Blogger The Sphinx said...

That's a really good point.

 
At 1/26/2006 01:36:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

There's nothing in those questions that refers to Islam. Other than claims on blogs, I have no way of knowing if this test is ONLY for muslim immigrants in germany. If they ONLY screen muslim immigrants, than yes, that's discrimiation. But I'd want to see better proof than what some obviously bigotted blogger herself has to say about it.

Example, a quote from Mareya:

"The last time Germany made a large-scale systematic practice of “denaturalizations” [Ausbürgerungen] of German citizens was under the Third Reich..."

De-naturilzation is the process of REMOVING somebodies citzenship. She's being dishonest here to imply that all germans are nazi racists. Kinda makes her look like a bigot herself, no?

 
At 1/26/2006 02:12:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

PC, you said
"If one racial or religious (IMMIGRANT) group in the US was systematically vicimizing other groups based on their race or religion, rest assured that would be a VERY big deal here. Our reaction to an immigrant group that behaved that way in the US would make the Europeans and Austrailians look pretty lax. We put people in PRISON for hate crimes in America, Mohamed. As opposed to the aussies who say "oh so what if they sexually assault our young girls because they don't dress like moslems? It's part of their culture, we have to understand it..."
On your first part could you please give an example of the "systematic" moslem victimization of any other ethnic or religious group in the us or a hate crime committed by a moslem against a non moslem, hate crimes are usually committed by certain elements of the majority against any minority they deem as fair game, have you ever heard of a black lynch mob hanging a white person? So can you with all honesty please tell me that someone from Alabama or West Texas wouldn't be offeneded if he had to fill a questionaire asking him, if he ever participated in a lynch mob, and whether he enjoyed it, or did he ever drag a black person by his truck, or how often does he use the n word, or if he enjoys getting intimate with livestock.
On your comment about the aussies, how did you get it so mixed up, it was a group of lebanese looking people getting beaten by a mob, so by your same token, it's ok to beat the hell out of a group of any latino looking or any black guys, just because the day before members of the crips or ms13 wiped out a whole family during a break in, then also according to you "as opposed to the aussies" instead of punishing the angry mob, you'd put the victims of the beating in prison??? Because that's what I've excatly understood from your statement.
Jokerman, you're still an uncle Tom.
Sphinx, good job buddy, but eventually you'll be outnumbered unless Twosret comes to the rescue, hold on steady man.

 
At 1/26/2006 05:16:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Mo,

"On your first part could you please give an example of the "systematic" moslem victimization of any other ethnic or religious group in the us"

No I cannot, but we aren't talking about the US.

Want to talk about Austrialia?

"or a hate crime committed by a moslem against a non moslem"

Yes I can. September 11th, 2001 comes to mind.

"hate crimes are usually committed by certain elements of the majority against any minority they deem as fair game"

This is not true. Majority/minority status has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a crime is a hate crime or not.

"have you ever heard of a black lynch mob hanging a white person?"

I don't know if black mobs hung any white people during the LA riots, but I saw live video footage of whites being dragged from their cars and being brutally beaten by mobs of blacks. There were thousands of racially motivated attacks during those riots.

"So can you with all honesty please tell me that someone from Alabama or West Texas wouldn't be offeneded if he had to fill a questionaire asking him, if he ever participated in a lynch mob, and whether he enjoyed it, or did he ever drag a black person by his truck, or how often does he use the n word, or if he enjoys getting intimate with livestock."

What oes this have to do with a nation's right to attempt to determine whether an applicant for citizenship is desireable or undesireable, Mohamed?

I'll frame it differently, OK? We have a fair number of Russian immigarnts in the US, and some of them are involved in organized crime. I would not object to(in fact I'd strongly support) efforts by the INS to determine whether Russian immigrants had any previous involvement with criminal gangs before granting them citizenship.

In the US, people are required to swear an oath of loyalty to the country before they become naturalized citizens. Many of those people lie when they swear that oath. I'd like to see such people de-naturalized, and possible deported. I'd also like to see INS actually try to determine an applicants actual feelings about the US before they are allowed to become citiznes. We have enough born and bred americans who hate their own country, we don't need to be importing America bashers.

"On your comment about the aussies, how did you get it so mixed up, it was a group of lebanese looking people getting beaten by a mob"

After years of hate crimes by moslems against white austrailians, including Lebanese on that very same beach, sexually assaulting white christian women, sexually harrassing 12 year old girls while they were in swimming classes, etc etc etc.

Do some research, Mohamed. That race riot didn't happen in a vacuum.

"Sphinx, good job buddy, but eventually you'll be outnumbered unless Twosret comes to the rescue, hold on steady man."

Are you threatening to sick Twosret on us? :)

Good, I hope she does join the discussion, I always like to hear what Twosret has to say.

 
At 1/27/2006 06:38:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

To Anon who wrote about the Hindu beating his wife.
you are mixing things here as there are europeans & germans who do beat their wives up. but answer these will u:
1- could you tell me who else says its a prerogative given to them by God?
2-Have you heard of any ethnic group in Europe who challenge the laws of the European states they reside in or wish to immigrate to on grounds of religion?
3- Do any other ethnic groups in Europe make a fuss over trivial matters,such as a head cover, as the muslims do ?
4-How many ethnic groups have assimilated & trying to mix with the society they have chosen to live with & compare it with the muslims there.
5- How many crimes were comitted in the name of God in Europe by ethnic groups ranging from preserving honour, preserving the faith, defending the faith from insults?
Those questions were simply the accumulation of muslim boiling points in Europe, which they will not accept or tolerate & lets them know it in advance, so anyone who feels he can beat up his wife for saying no sex tonight because God said so or anyone who would kill his daughter for sleeping with her bf should know these acts will not be tolerated & they ought to find themselves another homeland.

 
At 1/27/2006 07:39:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Jokerman who replied to me re Hindu

In some African countries they believe that having sex with toddlers is an effective cure for Aids. If you believe Muslim societies are the only ones which show some unpleasant trends or have some unsavoury traditions then all I can say is you need to get out more. It's a big world out there. As you say there are lots of non-Muslims who beat up their wives or abuse and/or murder their children. And there are also lots of Muslims who don't do any of those things or believe in them. There's nothing wrong with a particular country not wanting to see certain patterns of behavior among prospective immigrants but those standards should be applied equally to everyone not to one specific group of immigrants. The objective should be to root out the wife-beater not the Muslim. Now if the objective is infact to root out Muslims whether they're wife-beaters/terrorists or not then it seems to me that you can save yourself a lot of money and paperwork by simply stating that immigration is not open to people who happened to be born citizens of countries with Muslim majorities. A soverign country does have the right to take such a position if it wants to.

 
At 1/27/2006 09:57:00 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

To previous anon,

"Now if the objective is infact to root out Muslims whether they're wife-beaters/terrorists or not then it seems to me that you can save yourself a lot of money and paperwork by simply stating that immigration is not open to people who happened to be born citizens of countries with Muslim majorities. A soverign country does have the right to take such a position if it wants to."

Yes! Exactly! So, you just proved the case that they are NOT trying to prevent msolems from immigrating.

The US does have immigration quotas. It IS legal to just not accept immigrants from some countries, or some regions. It's been done before, it's being done now, and it'll be done in the future. It's basically impossible for northern europeans to immigrate to the US using traditional channels, for instance, and it has been for decades. This was mandated by congress and the courts some 60 years ago, as a remedy for past recial discrimination in US immigration policy, btw. Hmmm... come to think of it, it's strange we let so many canadians immigrate to the US though, but not northern europeans...

Anyway, immigration quotas are wacky. The point is, a sovereign nation can set whatevr quotos it wants (including a target number of ZERO) and that's perfectly legal. If it was the intent in Germnany to block moslem immigration, that's what they would do.

 
At 1/27/2006 10:25:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

To Anon
If the Germans wanted to descriminate, they could have easily let things be as they were before & simply refuse any more muslims whatever they are, whether liberal or orthodox, but the aim of the questions are to try to identify who can assimilate & not cause problems.
By the way, most muslims would do alot worse with any european visiting their country, take a look at the saudis, non muslims are barred from Mecca, i would like to see how those muslims would react if a european decided to behave in a muslim country the same way he behaves in his own.
I dont think you know alot about muslims to begin with & before you start telling anyone to go out, maybe you should read more aswell.

 
At 1/27/2006 10:27:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

PC, the only thing I have to agree with you on is that we need Twosret's input, where are you twosret :).
Hey Jokerman you blind ignorant idiot and believe me I reserve being really rude only for vip's like scorekeeper, you said
"Do any other ethnic groups in Europe make a fuss over trivial matters,such as a head cover, as the muslims do ?", they didn't make a fuss about it you s.o.b it was the french government which made that fuss, and i'm not really very pro head cover, but i respect the right of choice to wear it or not wear it, but if you're claiming that you're a democratic country with freedom for all, you shouldn't take this right from someone as long as it doesn't impinge on your rights and freedoms.
And about your question "How many ethnic groups have assimilated & trying to mix with the society they have chosen to live with & compare it with the muslims there.", obviously you don't know what you're talking about, because I challenge you to give an example of a single ethnic group eversince the creation of the us that assimilated head on from the moment they set foot on us soil, it took the irish, the italians, the polish, the jews a generation or two to get out of the physical and psychological ghetto and fully assimilate, with some ethnic groups not yet assimilating after even two or three generations (who in some cases don't even speak english after 2 or 3 generations), so when it comes to arabs and moslems, they assimilate way faster than any other group, as an example compare a business owned by an arab to one owned by any newcomer, you'll never fail to notice the disproportional number of workers from this guy's native country or ethnicity compared to the actual demographics of the area, if you examine the arab's business it's exactly the opposite, one other thing you'll notice that most ethnicities, specially first generation, they almost exclusively befriend and go out and invite to dinner people of their ethnic backgrounds, I won't tell you that absolutely no arab does that, but to a much much lesser extent than other minorities, depending on their education and language abilities.
One more thing Jokerman, I was really polite to you in dismissing your suggestion to the monkey about going to a museum or an art gallery, but since the gloves are taken out, I have to tell you man, that's one the gayest piece of advice I've ever heard.

 
At 1/27/2006 10:59:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are laws in the western world and they are for each and every person in those countries - everyone should be treated equally and no group or religion should get preferential treatment because they believe differently. If people don't like it - get the hell out.

Damned if people are going to tolerate their neighbour being able to beat their wives because their religion says its okay, whilst the other neighbour is thrown in jail for the same thing - I don't bloody well think so. How can it be okay to beat your wife anyhow - aren't you suppose to love her: bloody coward males.

Joanne

 
At 1/27/2006 11:45:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Jokerman

Whether the Germans wanted to discriminate or not is not the issue. We're not discussing intentions. We're discussing results. To subject one specific group of people to a test that no other group has to take is a discriminatory act. You can go ahead and decide you still want to do it even though it is discriminatory but you can't call it anything other than discrimination.If 10 people apply to an embassy for immigration and you pick one of them and say to him listen we don't approve of wife-beating in Germany so are you a wife-beater and how many of your daughters have you murdered lately?And you don't ask the same question to the other 9 because they're not Muslims then that is the DEFINITION of discrimination.

--take a look at the saudis, non muslims are barred from Mecca, --

Dear God for the German people's sake let's hope that Germany is not going to start looking up to SAUDI ARABIA as an example to follow on ANYTHING. Germany is a founding member of the EU and it should behave like a civilized country.
Btw is Saudi Arabia the only Islamic country you've ever heard of?Have you ever heard of Turkey?Or Malaysia?Do they bar nonMuslims too?I think there are 54 or 55 Islamic countries other than Saudi Arabia in the world. Like I said you need to get out more.

-- i would like to see how those muslims would react if a european decided to behave in a muslim country the same way he behaves in his own. --

Immaterial.How Muslims or anyone else would or would not react to discrimination doesn't make discrimination acceptable. Even if I recognize you as a self-appointed spokesman for over a billion Muslims in the world which I certainly do not.And being in favor of discrimination yourself you're in no position to be condemning others for engaging in it.

 
At 1/27/2006 12:08:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anonymous @ 11:45,
The germans don't need to look up to Saudi Arabia to emulate and act accordingly, all they've got to do is to randomly rip any page from their own history or do some honest soul searching within their own society to find out the prejudiced xenophobes they are.

 
At 1/27/2006 12:08:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anonymous @ 11:45,
The germans don't need to look up to Saudi Arabia to emulate and act accordingly, all they've got to do is to randomly rip any page from their own history or do some honest soul searching within their own society to find out the prejudiced xenophobes they are.

 
At 1/27/2006 12:21:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Mohamed

That's a cheap shot. All Germans are not prejudiced xenophobes just like all Muslims are not wife-beaters. Such statements are too bigoted to be considered.To point the finger at Germany's history in this context is disingenious. The vast majority of Germans do not deny there is darkness in their history. German political culture and mainstream has long since recognized the past and condemned it, made amends and moved on to make real progress in democracy and human rights. Present day Germany does not resemble the Germany of the past anymore than it resembles Saudi Arabia. THAT is the reason why Germans should not start to practice discrimination - to protect what they have achieved.

 
At 1/27/2006 12:46:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

I meant it to be a cheap shot, just to prove my point, and show you how offended people could be when they're stereotyped.

 
At 1/27/2006 12:55:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

"Whether the Germans wanted to discriminate or not is not the issue."

Immigration policy IS discriminatory. Every country has it's own immigration, but NO country allows unregulated (legal) immigration.

To advocate that there should be no discrimination in immigration poilcy is to abandon the discussion. We should be talking about what types of dsicrimantion are valid and what aren't.

Many countries practice economic discrimination in their immigration policies. If you don't have a degree (in a desireable field at that) and cannot prove you can provide for yourself (x amount of cash in the bank) you can pretty much forget it.

Other countries shoot for "diversity" which makes it easier for for people from third world or developing countries to immigrate.

Still others (like Germany and the US) actually WANT to import x number of unskilled laborers - but no more than x, whatever that number may be.

Mohamed, I agree with what you said about msolems assimilating successfully in the US. I would say Iranians, Arabs and Chinese are probably the 3 groups that have done the best, the fastest, coming to the US.

But for some reason, this only seems to be true in the US and Canada. It doesn't seem like it applies in Europe and Austrialia. Not really sure why that is... do you have any ideas?

 
At 1/27/2006 01:23:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To programmer Craig

-- Immigration policy IS discriminatory. Every country has it's own immigration, but NO country allows unregulated (legal) immigration. --

I disagree. Countries invite immigration because they have demographic and economic need for it and naturally every country has its own demographic and economic needs. That's perfectly understandable. It's not discrimination at all. That's like advertising for a job. You specify the skills, the education, the personality etc...you think are needed to fill the position. But you don't advertize and say:
"We're looking to fill an accounting position. If you are of Asian origin please tell us how you feel about embezzlement because we think Asians are often thieves. However, if you are not Asian, we're not interested in you views on embezzlement. We just trust you."
That would be discriminatory and defamatory, wouldn't it?

 
At 1/27/2006 01:24:00 PM, Blogger The Sphinx said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 1/27/2006 01:25:00 PM, Blogger The Sphinx said...


But for some reason, this only seems to be true in the US and Canada. It doesn't seem like it applies in Europe and Austrialia. Not really sure why that is... do you have any ideas?


It's probably because America is more of a multicultural society than Europe is..

 
At 1/27/2006 02:54:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

I don't know PC, my best guess without trying to blame anyone,is that in Europe's case, europeans' natural attitudes towards foreigners are those of xenophobia and suspicion in general and at the same time in most of the cases the immigrants' attitude to their host countries isn't that of a better work or learning opportunity, but that of more of comfortable living through government handouts, which started first, the xenophobia, or entitlment attitude, I have no idea, as always, blame depends on which side of the argument you're on, I don't know. That's my perception based on nothing solid by the way, i might be wrong.
Any europeans or immigrants there for more input?

 
At 1/28/2006 06:11:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

sphinxyto say[It's probably because America is more of a multicultural society than Europe is.. ] is misleading. America does have different cultures but they are not really integrating much after centuries & decades of living together. Take a look at the chinese, italian, arabs & Latins & tell me did they integrate or not.
Mohamed
That suspicion & Xenophobia can be found everywhere in the world, as if there isn´t any xenophobia or foreigner suspicion in middle eastern countries.

 
At 1/28/2006 06:20:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Patronising ANON
You lost the point! I was simply stating that muslims or arabs shouldnt be offended since they themselves practice it one way or another in different levels.
Now you can say immaterial when it is as you sway from the point, but to put it in your face, every single country practices descrimination to protect something they deem as important, so im not in favour of it, its just a reality, you want to condemn someone for their reactions toward a certain attitude found more in certain people, thats your problem but dont speak as if you know what muslims are & call others some fancy word you found in the dictionary to label others, ok selfrighteous anon?

 
At 1/28/2006 09:00:00 AM, Blogger Melantrys said...

*raises an indignant German eyebrow at Mohamed*

To answer an almost ancient question, PC (why did you ppl have to write so much?!), as far as I'm aware those questions are only asked of Muslims. The basic purpose is to weed out terrorists, so they apparently felt the urge to get at points Islamists would have serious problems with. I think there are even questions directly referring to jihad.
Apart from this indeed being discriminating, I seriously don't see the point. Any real Muslim terrorist with 3 functioning brain cells won't give the answers they'd expect him to give.

Concerning integration into our society..... well, it's not as if our society is really making an effort of helping with this integration. If you're not feeling truly welcome, why bother, know what I mean?
*sighs*
I should stop moaning, as things have become better during the last 20 years or so, but they're far from perfect.

 
At 1/28/2006 12:38:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Melantrys, I'm sorry if I've offended you, but as I've said I was making a point of how easily people could be (and rightfully so by the way) easily offended if they were negatively stereotyped, I could've given any example of any other nation or culture by putting it through a negative only lense microscope, but time and space won't be enough or practical.
Also, because the particular questionaire is issued in Germany, and I think that you've implicitly agreed with me about the practicality of those questions, so that it's only remaining valid purpose is to insult someone whose main purpose is a better life and chance, so according to you, to use a historical analogy, arabs have got to either use the coloured only water fountain or sit at the back of the bus otherwise "not bother" come to Germany?

 
At 1/28/2006 02:19:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Mo, I think if you re-read Melantry's post, you'll see that she's on your side of this issue.

I'm somewhere in between I guess. I do think there's a need to try and filter immigrants... but it really ISN'T fair, if only one group is singled out.

 
At 1/28/2006 06:24:00 PM, Blogger Ron Larson said...

I think those are pretty insulting questions myself. It seems to imply that the person is guilty of these attributes until they declare themselves to be otherwise.

For example... the question about a gay son. I don't have a son. I can speculate how I might feel. But I really don't know how I would react.

I could feel one way and then lie about my reactions on the questioneer just so I don't "fail".

I think the better solution is to simply remind people of the laws of Germany, the rights people have, and then defend those laws and rights with strong prosecution against those who violate them.

Allow those who do not believe in those laws and rights to either (a) accept them, (b) legally lobby to change them, (c) move to a country that better fits their beliefs.

 
At 1/28/2006 07:57:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Jokerman

-- I was simply stating that muslims or arabs shouldnt be offended since they themselves practice it one way or another in different levels. --

Again you're generalizing. A decent, tolerant educated Muslim or Arab would certainly feel insulted by these questions. And you can't really tell people well, I'm going to be racist to you and you should accept it because there are racists in your country. There are racists in every country so does that mean we should all accept being victims of racism?
Personally I think this test will achieve the exact opposite of its stated objective. An educated, enlightened individual - the kind of individual you would want to have as an immigrant - would probably have serious second thoughts about immigrating to a country that treats him with so much prejudice from the very beginning. I know I would certainly cancel any plans to even visit any country that expected me to answer questions specifically designed for my skin-color or ethnic group just to get in - let alone immigrate to it. People immigrate from Third World dictatorships for economic reasons but they also immigrate to escape political/cultural oppression. They don't expect to have to live with the same sort of thing in their new country otherwise why even bother to immigrate?Those type of freedom-loving people would probably start looking for other destinations if they were treated that way. And that's the type of people you should be trying to attract!The real terrorists or wife-beaters and other scumbags are just going to lie about it because to their minds it's ok to deceive disbelievers. So what the test will do is filter out the decent people. As it is practiced now, it seems an empty and self-defeating gesture in addition to being discriminatory.

 
At 1/29/2006 12:21:00 AM, Blogger LouLou said...

Glad to see things are as lively as ever around here.:)

Interesting post SM. But I have to agree with those who consider it discrimination.

Am off to Germany myself tomorrow. Haven't been asked to take any such test. Maybe because my visa is still valid from a previous trip. Is it a new procedure?Or is it only for immigrants? I guess integration is not an issue if you're only going to be there for 2 wks.

But I have to say that what I find even more discriminatory is the suggestion that if I was living in Germany & my husband wanted to beat me up they'd let him do it because am a Muslim woman. THAT I would have even more serious issues with!I mean does that really happen?For real?Whose bright idea was that?

Also I didn't know Islam says he can beat me up for refusing to have sex. Whose interpretation is that?

 
At 1/29/2006 12:29:00 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Hi LouLou,

I think the test is only for people who wish to become German citizens.

Have fun in Germany... where are you going to be? I spent about 6 months in a little town called Bottrop in the mid 90s... really a nice place, but I'm sure you aren't headed there :)

 
At 1/29/2006 01:05:00 AM, Blogger LouLou said...

Hi Craig,

No am going to Frankfurt.:)

Was just trying to figure out exactly how cold it's going to be. Can you trust the weatherman online?

Last time I was there it was summer and it quite nice actually. No such luck now I expect.

 
At 1/29/2006 01:25:00 AM, Blogger LouLou said...

Craig,

Just a question. About a year and a half back I was asked at work to send my college degree for official authentication because there were apparently some problems with people having forged their certificates or something. It came back signed by Colin Powell. Do you know why that might be?I mean why the Secretary of State?Why is my bachelor degree a matter of state?

I was expecting that some sort of educational authority would put the official seal on it.

 
At 1/29/2006 02:13:00 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Ah, I flew into and out of Frankfurt, and then took a short hop to Duesseldorf from there... didn't get to see much of the city, just the airport!

I was there spring through fall, so I didn't see the winter either. My guess is it's going to be COLD though...

http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/GMXX0185_f.html

Gonna be below freezing in Frankfurt til Thursday according to that forecast, and snow on Tuesday! Dress warm! And don't forget to throw snowballs at the Germans :D

Maybe Melantrys can tell you if there's actually snow on the ground right now? It's cold enough...

No idea about the degree certification, but it makes sense (to me) that the state department would certify it. That does seem like an international matter. Can't really think who else would be responsible for that program, besides the state department. The Department of Education only has domestic authority, I think.

 
At 1/29/2006 05:27:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My understanding is that questions are asked of all immigrants, but are differentiated according to cultural background. I know the US does something like this, for instance if you're a German looking to immigrate you have to account for your 1940 - 45 whereabouts, while if you're a Brit you don't.

 
At 1/29/2006 09:29:00 AM, Blogger Melantrys said...

LouLou, I think you've got something wrong here. We do not tolerate wife beating if it is given a cultural face.
Ppl do get away with wife beating though as long as the wife doesn't file charges. If there are no charges, the police can't do a thing. I don't know if that means that more Muslim than other women suffer silently; there's enough non-Muslim women who don't dare speak up for themselves that it's hard to make a guess about unofficial statistics if you don't even know the official ones.

On a little off-topic note: We are just recovering from the Siberian cold front. Last week there was no snow in Frankfurt but then there was also no snow here, 2 to 3 hours (highway time) away. Now we do have some snow.
I'd second Craig's suggestion of dressing up warm; temperatures were around freezing point during the day the last few days.

And have fun running into Germans unable to master the English language. ;)

 
At 1/29/2006 09:59:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Originally posted by LouLou
Also I didn't know Islam says he can beat me up for refusing to have sex. Whose interpretation is that?

It's right there in the Koran @ 004:0034

I'm no scholar, but that is pretty cut and dry to me. If a Muslim wife is not obedient, then the husband can do a,b,c, etc., including beating them. Obedient here is the key word. One can argue that refusing to have sex with the husband can result in a beating because the wife is not being "obedient."

A real kicker on the value of women in Islam is here.

Thank God I wasn't born a woman, and most of all, a Muslim woman. You ladies get the short end of the stick everytime.

jonas

 
At 1/29/2006 10:21:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Originally posted by the Sphinx
You know, Papa Ray, you are the typical example for somebody who doesn't know jack about Islam and judges it by the bastardized image you get to see in the meida.

What do you base your statement upon? The couple of incidents you saw in the news, triggered by a microscopic minority of this group? The opinion of somebody else who doesn't know tosh either? Or some bullcrap anti-islamic site full of prejudice and destructive criticism?

I can provide to you tons of stuff that gloriously contradicts your statement. And you can't do anything about it.

Have a nice day


I can't speak for Papa Ray, but for me, I don't really need the media to tell me what to think about Islam. I go straight to the source: the Koran. I judge Islam not by what the followers do, but by what the founder, Mohammed, did and said.

Tell me, Sphinx, how is it okay for Mohammed to kill men and on the same night, rape their wives? King David did the same thing once in the Old Testament with Bathsheba (sp?), and he was punished by God for it. Why didn't Allah punish Mohammed for his numerous acts of "kill the husbands & rape the wives?" How is it okay that he gets to marry and have sex with a nine year old girl? Did Mohammed teach about loving your enemies and praying for those who persecute you, and turning the other cheek?

Because of Mohammed's failure as an example of morality for his followers to emulate, the world today is in danger of mass genocide. Many jihadis have killed numerous people, many of which are women and children. Just give them the bomb, and they will gladly kill even more. There is no love in them for their enemies. They don't know the meaning of forgiveness.

I don't single out one or two acts to condemn Islam. On the contrary, I look for a consistent pattern. If you were intellectually honest, you would admit that there is a consistency, too.

If you can answer these questions, I will post some more.

jonas

 
At 1/29/2006 01:39:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

PC and Melantrys, again accept my apology, I know you were being sarcastic, but I was talking about the intent of the questionaire, and to be honest with you and I'm not really trying to be patronizing this time, I've never met a german guy or girl who didn't turn out to really great, polite, courteous and go out of his way to help.
Loulou, i don't think having Colin Powell sign your diploma is a big deal, mine was signed by jeb bush ;), also if you're going to germany, then you have to try Garmesch, although I don't know how it's like in winter, also Munich is great, just stay away from Berlin and Dusseldorf.

 
At 1/29/2006 03:03:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anon @ 10:21,
"why is it ok for Mohamed to kill men and at the same night rape their wives", could you please give a valid historical source or reference other than pulling stories from your butt?
Also regarding your statement about the world's danger of mass genocide, as far as I remember history, non of the following "mass genocides" or their threat had an iota of an islamic ingredient in them, here's a few:
The inquisition, the conquistadores, the mongol aggression, extermination of indigenous people, WWI & II, hitler, stalin, mutually assured destruction, vietnam, cambodia and rwanda, quiet genocidal maniacs those moslems, right?

 
At 1/29/2006 04:47:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mohamed,

Do you honestly not know, or do you just want me to do the homework for you? I will assume the latter and will oblige to a degree. Let's take the second part first:

Regarding my comment about mass genocide, I said, "the world today is in danger of mass genocide." This alludes to a possible future catastrophe, but you went back to talk about history. I am not an expert on the other periods of genocides, but with regard to World War II, I refer you to the name Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini. He had a hand in the genocide of the Jews. A picture is worth a thousand words, eh? Well, here's a few dozen pictures.

Thus, your statement that non of the following "mass genocides" or their threat had an iota of an islamic ingredient in them, is not true.

I will address the first part later.

And my name is Jonas, not "anon."

jonas

 
At 1/29/2006 07:28:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Jonas

I'll give you this. You're original. Now you're going to blame the holocaust - the natural result of centuries of rabid European anti-Semitism on Islam because you managed to find some obscure Muslim collaborator out of the millions of Europeans who designed, planned, carried out, apologized or collaborated in it?What about the thousands of European collaborators?I guess Hitler must have been got it all out of the Quran.

What unspeakable hypocrisy.

 
At 1/29/2006 07:54:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous @7:28

Do you have a comprehension problem? I said the Grand Mufti had a hand in the genocide of the Jews. A hand!! Say it with me....A....HAND!!! No where did I said he started it. I said he had A HAND! Hitler was the main culprit.

Read critically. And leave a name so I'll recognize you next time around.


jonas

 
At 1/29/2006 08:42:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mohamed,

You should go easy on Jonas here. He means well. He just wants to convert us all & save our souls. It's all out of love really so you should forgive him his missionary zeal.

About Colin Powell it's not a big deal. Was just curious. Just wondering if I send it again now will I get Condi's signature this time?I think I want her autograph.

Thanks for the travel tips. Everyone tells me to stay away from Berlin.:)


Hi Jonas,

Given our previous history together on other blogs you will please excuse me for being utterly uninterested in explaining or justifying my personal beliefs to you. It's off-topic & I simply don't have the time or the inclination to get into another endless, long-winded 'Dialogue of The Deaf' like we call them in Arabic.

I'll let someone else respond to you if they're so inclined. I have better things to do at the moment.


PC & Melantys,

Melantys thanks for explaining about the wife-beating thing. Didn't think it sounded very likely. It was just an impression I got from reading the post & some of the comments.

Thank you both. Yes all forecasts do seem to agree that it will be freezing. Snow would make up for that though. I miss snow. It's been years.

Craig in 6 months you should have learnt quite a bit of German no?Am determined to come back with at least a few phrases this time.:)

 
At 1/29/2006 08:44:00 PM, Blogger LouLou said...

That was me in the previous comment btw.

 
At 1/29/2006 09:02:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Originally posted by Anonymous @ 8:42
He just wants to convert us all & save our souls. It's all out of love really so you should forgive him his missionary zeal.

Convert? Save your souls? Missionary zeal? LOL, that's a new one. Never been accused of that before. Sorry to disappoint, but I don't care where your souls end up. Not my business.

Given our previous history together on other blogs you will please excuse me for being utterly uninterested in explaining or justifying my personal beliefs to you.

I don't care what your personal beliefs are. Never asked you about it. Not interested in it one bit. The conversation is between Sphinx and me, but Mohammed joined in so it's just the three of us. Of course, anyone is welcomed to discuss, but at least be man or woman enough and leave a nick. Make up one if you don't want your online image tarnished. Don't be a wuss. Moe, Dick, Larry, or Suzy; I don't care.

Long rant, little substance. You remind me of James Wolcott.



jonas

 
At 1/29/2006 09:09:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Originally posted by LouLou
That was me in the previous comment btw.

I figured it was you. I have about one person I vehemently disagreed with in the past, and you're it.

Mohammed aske for iota of an islamic ingredient and I provided the Grand Mufti. You jumped in and accused me of things I never said. You still haven't learned to read critically like I asked, eh? What a shame. A university degree....



jonas

 
At 1/29/2006 09:26:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

One more thing, LouLou: what do you think of the position the Prophet Mohammed has give you in Islam, that of a housewife and "walking vagina?" (blame BP for that, I borrowed it from him).

All that education, you know? With so much knowledge crammed in that brain of yours, you still managed to suppress......

bravo, my hat's off to ya.


FYI, I don't hold any malice towards you or anyone here. Heated discussions, yes; malice/hatred, no.

jonas

 
At 1/29/2006 10:06:00 PM, Blogger LouLou said...

Jonas,

I never replied to anything about the Grand Mufti & I have no idea what you're talking about. Go back & read what I wrote. Infact I think I'll save you the effort & post it again.

"
Mohamed,

You should go easy on Jonas here. He means well. He just wants to convert us all & save our souls. It's all out of love really so you should forgive him his missionary zeal.

About Colin Powell it's not a big deal. Was just curious. Just wondering if I send it again now will I get Condi's signature this time?I think I want her autograph.

Thanks for the travel tips. Everyone tells me to stay away from Berlin.:)


Hi Jonas,

Given our previous history together on other blogs you will please excuse me for being utterly uninterested in explaining or justifying my personal beliefs to you. It's off-topic & I simply don't have the time or the inclination to get into another endless, long-winded 'Dialogue of The Deaf' like we call them in Arabic.

I'll let someone else respond to you if they're so inclined. I have better things to do at the moment.


PC & Melantys,

Melantys thanks for explaining about the wife-beating thing. Didn't think it sounded very likely. It was just an impression I got from reading the post & some of the comments.

Thank you both. Yes all forecasts do seem to agree that it will be freezing. Snow would make up for that though. I miss snow. It's been years.

Craig in 6 months you should have learnt quite a bit of German no?Am determined to come back with at least a few phrases this time.:)"

That's the only comment I wrote here that had something directed to you in it. And it was written in response to this comment by you which you addressed to me:

"
Originally posted by LouLou
Also I didn't know Islam says he can beat me up for refusing to have sex. Whose interpretation is that?

It's right there in the Koran @ 004:0034.

I'm no scholar, but that is pretty cut and dry to me. If a Muslim wife is not obedient, then the husband can do a,b,c, etc., including beating them. Obedient here is the key word. One can argue that refusing to have sex with the husband can result in a beating because the wife is not being "obedient."

A real kicker on the value of women in Islam is here.

Thank God I wasn't born a woman, and most of all, a Muslim woman. You ladies get the short end of the stick everytime.

jonas
"

I think my response to you was perfectly clear. And I have nothing more to add to it.

 
At 1/29/2006 10:27:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

LouLou,

If you're not Anonymous @ 7:28, then I apologize. Too many anonymous posters, it's hard to keep track of those PITA.


To the real Anonymous @ 7:28, leave a nick, and I'll get back to ya.


jonas <----my nick, see??

 
At 1/30/2006 12:03:00 AM, Blogger LouLou said...

Jonas,

No it wasn't me. Apology accepted.:)

I never comment anonymously. I know how confusing & irritating it can be. That was the only time & it happened by accident. When I realized it was posted anonymously I wanted to delete it & repost it in my name but Blogger apparently doesn't allow you to delete anonymous comments. So I did the next best thing which was write another comment identifying the first one as mine.

 
At 1/30/2006 12:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mohammed,

Concerning the first part about the Prophet Mohammed killing the men and raping their wives, I know I read it in the Koran or the Hadiths, but I forget which. If you've read them, you should know where they are. Let me know if you don't consider Islam's holy books a credible authority on historical matters. I'd like to go through my links and find the exact story, but I have a ton of work to catch up on. However, if you still don't believe this is recorded in Islam's holy books, then let me know and I will dig it up for you, but it may take me a few days to make the post.



jonas

 
At 1/30/2006 01:33:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Jonas, I really hate it when the argument turns from a political to theological one because of people like you, I just can't let you get away with your lies.
Now let me start with your self proclaimed knowledge of the Koran, well I've read the Koran buddy and your nonsense story isn't there, and I give you my word if such a story existed and I'm still a moslem, then I'll have to admit that I'm a lunatic along with the other 1.5 billion.
Second, you asked loulou about the "walking vagina" perception of women in islam, to answer you I'll just quote highlander's wonderful translation of the farewell sermon, here is it,
" No Arab has superiority over a non-Arab, and no non-Arab has superiority over an Arab. No white person has superiority over a black person, and no black person has superiority over a white person. No man has superiority over a woman, and no woman has superiority over a man. The criteria for acceptance in the sight of God are righteousness and honest living." Prophet Muhammad's Farewell Sermon.
Second about islamic intolerance and your convert or kill perception of it, which is by the way a projection by you of your inherent medieval european intolerance, and if you have really read the Koran, how come did you stumble on a non existant phrase about killing and raping, and you weren't able to find the ones about the absolute and unequivocal freedom of belief in islam,like,
"No compulsion in religion"
"Who ever wishes to believe is free to, and whoever wishes not to believe is free not to"
"Those who believe and the jews and the christians, whoever among them believes in god and in judgement day, they have nothing fear and they won't grieve"
Is there anyway that you can misinterpret this.
Finally, regarding the mufti of jerusalem, do you really think for a moment that his presence or non presence would have influenced a single life lost in the holocaust,
and since we're talking about the jews, why was it always when they were purged and burned and mass murdered all across europe throughout history, it was always moslem and arab countries that provided a refuge and safe haven for them.
Again, I really hate to talk religion, and I'm not really very religious by the way, it's just that I really hate unfair and unjust lies by blind extremists stating them as facts.

 
At 1/30/2006 01:40:00 PM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Anon 12.41
What Koran did you get that the prophet to kill & rape women???
There is no such rubbish like that in the Koran. Now as for sayings, you must realise that the vast majority of those sayings are not orders, they are doubtful as most are narrated by one or 2 persons only when you need a busload of narrators for each level which only constitutes very few of the sayings.
You might be refering to a scholar in the medeivel times but not the prophet or the koran.
You say you have links, sorry mate, screw the links..you need books, the traditional books & i would be gladly to give you a link to which these books are mostly saved on the net, but you will need to read & understand classical arabic.

 
At 1/30/2006 07:01:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mohamed,

This debate is more historical than theological. I just want to focus on the founder of Islam. Do you complain when a political debate contains some historical references? Well, just consider this a political debate about Islam with references to Mohammed's life as history records. The history here is included both in the Koran and Ahadiths, but the Ahadiths have more than the Koran, though.

Now let me start with your self proclaimed knowledge of the Koran,
I never claimed to be knowledgeable of the Koran, so let's loose the false pretense you have ascribed to me.

Now, as for the tranlation by highlander that you posted, that sounds very nice, but all I can say is "HYPOCRISY." Mohammed, near the end of his life, gave this sermon. He talked about righteousness and being honest and all that good stuff. Did he practiced what he preached? I might have believed this about Mohammed when I knew absolutely nothing about Islam, but not today. If I lie, steal, rape, and murder, what would you think when I start talking to you about righteousness and honest living? If you were honest, you would say I was being a hypocrit, and that would be true. How did Mohammed lived his life? He stole, he lied, he raped, and he murdered innocent people. Then, he gives a sermon about righteousness and people like you believe him? Why?

There are many fallacies in your post, but since I have much work to catch up on, I will ignore those and just focus on the two points I raised: the Grand Mufti and the Prophet killing his enemies and raping their women.

First the Grand Mufti

You said:
Finally, regarding the mufti of jerusalem, do you really think for a moment that his presence or non presence would have influenced a single life lost in the holocaust,

This question tells me that you know even less about the Grand Mufti than I do. The Grand Mufti took part in a propaganda campaign against the Allies and the Jews using German radio. He broadcasted in Arabic and encouraged Arabs and Muslims to slaughter Jews no matter where they were. He was jailed by the British for instigating the 1920 Arab attack against the Jews who were praying at the Western Wall. He incited the masses to kill Jews and loot their homes. He falsely claimed the Jews had desecrated the local mosques, including the al-aqsa mosque, and encouraged Arabs to "Izbah Al-Yahud!"

As for Mohammed raping women after he killed their husbands, I refer you to Islam.com. Scroll down to Tabari IX:137 and read it.

Tabari IX:137 "Allah granted Rayhanah of the [Jewish] Qurayza to His Messenger as booty [but only after she had been forced to watch him decapitate her father and brother, seen her mother hauled off to be raped, and her sisters sold into slavery]."

In fact, that entire page is about Mohammed's lust for women. You want to talk to me about his righteousness? Puh-lease, give me some credit.

Also, try to explain this Koranic passage:
Koran 5:51

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is one of them. Lo allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.


No man has superiority over a woman, is a contradiction made by Mohammed here.

Also, read up on Safiyah, the beautiful Jewish girl whose husband and father were slaughtered by Mohammed and his men, and whom Mohammed raped the same night after "he married her." Sahih Bukhari 1.367

You can believe the Prophet was/is holy if you want, but you won't have any luck selling that lie to me.

jonas

 
At 1/30/2006 08:47:00 PM, Anonymous Vader said...

To Jonas

I am Anonymous @7:28. And I still think you're grasping at straws re the Grand Mufti. To present the holocaust as an example of Islamic genocides because one Muslim individual might have been a Nazi collaborator is intellectually dishonest. The holocaust was not motivated by Islamic theology. It was not carried out by Muslims or to please Muslims. And it is certainly not an example of Islamic intolerance. It was a European problem from A-Z and Europeans should never forget that. Your insinuation reeks of some new brand of holocaust denial. Instead of denying it let's blame it on someone else like the Middle East?
If you were so desperate for better examples you could have mentioned the Armenian Genocide. It was carried out by Muslims(the Ottomans) against Armenian Christians so one can call it an Islamic genocide.

 
At 1/30/2006 09:30:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Mohamed, I also don't like to argue about religion, BUT...

"Now let me start with your self proclaimed knowledge of the Koran, well I've read the Koran buddy and your nonsense story isn't there, and I give you my word if such a story existed and I'm still a moslem, then I'll have to admit that I'm a lunatic along with the other 1.5 billion."

That's a pretty strong statement! Although you were not clear about which part of Jonas's statements you were disputing.

The sources Jonas linked are official University of Southern California translations, and unless you are disputing the validity of the translations, it appears that the stories of raping captives ARE there.

Can somebody please tell me if those translations are false? I don't mean "technically" false because the Koran is supposed to be read in the language it was written in. I mean, false in the substance of what they say.

 
At 1/31/2006 11:07:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Jonas, regarding the rape incident I have nothing to add to jokerman's
comment,if you can prove it from the sources he cited, then I stand by my word that I must be a lunatic if I still believe in a religion found by a rapist.
The second thing, your quote from the koran about jews and christians shows that you're not having this argument in good faith because either you or your translated version made a very simple linguistic maneuver to turn this verse 180 dgrees from it's arabic meaning, in arabic the word that was later translated in your quote to friends is "awleyaa", which literaly means overlords not friends , and in the context of this particular verse the meaning was "overlords on your
religion". Regarding the koran's opinions about friendship with "people of the book", as far as I remember I've read only one verse regarding that matter, but I don't remember it literally, in summary (and without mincing words with double meaning) it states that if someone from another religion who wasn't an aggressor against you in fighting you because of your religion and driving you from your homes, then you're doing no wrong if you befriend, be generous and charitable to them. Also, please tell me genius how come, does islam absolutely allow moslems to marry christians and jews (with no need for conversion whatsoever) and at the same time doesn't allow them to be friends to them???
And to give you a dose of reality
here, could you tell me how
many moslem friends do you
personally have? I don't think that I'd even had to ask this
question, I know the answer
in advance.
In contrast,i can
tell you how many close friends of different religions/agnostic/athiest I've got, with an absolutely clear conscience that I'm not violating any teaching in my religion.
And regarding your lack of time to refute my quotes from the koran, i don't think that if you had all the time in the world you'd be able maneuver around those words or mischaracterize their meaning.
Rgarding the mufti of jerusalem, you're right, I don't know much about him, but you still didn't answer my question, how come for more than a thousand years, the middle east was the safe haven for the persecuted jews in europe, you didn't explain to me how come when the crusaders entered jerusalem, they burnt alive
all it's jewish (men women &
children)
inhabitants inside their synagogues, but when the arabs regained it back, Saladin ordered the repatriation of 500 jewish families back, into what is still known until now as the jewish quarter.
As I've said before, I'm not that religious, and there's a lot of things in islam that I couldn't answer or explain (and for that matter every single religion too
), but to be unfairly singled out and misquoted and having this compounded by baseless horrific stories made up by medieval drunks,
I have say something.
Final word Jonas, you can tell all the fairy tales that you want, but you can't twist the words that I've
quoted, no matter how much you want
to do so,also
you have only the history that happened not the one you wish would've happened, sorry you can't rewrite it buddy.
PC, as I've said I can't answer or explain everything about islam,
but I can give you way more
extreme examples from any other religion.
But also
as I've mentioned before, why is it that everytime there's a free election in a moslem country they almost everytime elect a woman?

 
At 1/31/2006 11:45:00 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Mo,

"PC, as I've said I can't answer or explain everything about islam,
but I can give you way more
extreme examples from any other religion."

But, that isn't what you said! You said you'd admit you were wrong, which is why I thought it was an extreme statement.

I don't think you'll find anything in the Bible or the Torah that endorses slavery - the deliverance of the Jews from captivity in Egypt is the very cornerstone of Judaism, that's why the First Book of Moses is called "genesis."

I also don't think you'll find an endorsement of rape in Christian or Jewish scripture. But feel free to prove me wrong. I've read the Bible many times, but it's very possible I've missed something.

I'll tell you one reason why this bothers me, Mo. Human Rights Watch and other human rights groups have documented hundreds of cases in Iran where female prisoners were involuntarily "married" to their captors, in order to give their jailors the "right" rape them. If the women are married, they are given involuntary divorces from their husbands, and then married to their jailors.

 
At 1/31/2006 12:28:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

No Craig, you got me completely wrong about this, the rape issue I addressed by refering to Jokerman's opinion about those references, someone like el tabari among others were people who lived at least 200 years after the beginning of islam, and a lot of those people have got some questionable and dubious credibility, and it's been always cautioned not to take them as absolute sources, that's why I've quoted the koran regarding people of other faith etc, because I couldn't dispute and say that's not in the Koran, so until now nothing verifiable was produced to support jonas' rape story.
What I meant that every religion has got some aspects that might seem unexplicable, but I certainly didn't mean the rape story is among those aspects, I'm still 100% adamant about that, if it's true, and I'm still following this religion, then I'm a lunatic.

 
At 1/31/2006 01:49:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Originally posted by Vader
And I still think you're grasping at straws re the Grand Mufti. To present the holocaust as an example of Islamic genocides because one Muslim individual might have been a Nazi collaborator is intellectually dishonest.

The Grand Mufti wasn't just any ordinary Muslim; he was the leader of the Supreme Muslim Council and a preeminent power in Arab Palestine. He was very influential among the Muslim communities. After he was exiled from Palestine following the riot of 1936, he went to Germany and met with the top leaders of the regime, including Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop, and asked them to extend Germany's anti-Jewish program to the Arab world. Hitler, in return, promised to provide aid to the Arab world to help their war against the Jews in Palestine, and to destroy the Jewish element in the Arab sphere. Hitler also promised that after all was said and done, the Grand Mufti would be the most influential person in the Arab world. The Grand Mufti thanked Hitler for this.

In addition to the radio propaganda project, al-Husseini also played a role in recruiting 20,000 Muslim volunteers for the Schutzstaffel (SS), Hitler's personal bodyguards. Among the jobs of the SS were police matters, "racial matters," counterintelligence, and overseeing the death and concentration camps. By 1939, the Schutzstaffel had over 250,000 members strong. Al-Husseini's role in recruiting the 20,000 Muslim members are more than a drop in the bucket. For this, Yugoslavia sought to indict him as a war criminal, because the SS participated in the killing of Jews in Croatia and Hungary.

I took into account everything above and made my claim that Al-Husseini had a hand in the genocide of the Jews. Mohamed claimed there was not one iota of an islamic ingredient in the genocides he listed. The Grand Mufti more than qualifies as an "iota," and that's all I have to prove. I never claimed the Grand Mufti was responsible for the holocaust or that the holocaust was motivated by Islamic theology. That's what you said, not I, so it is you who are being intellectually dishonest. Again I ask you to read critically what I said, and not put words in my mouth.

jonas

 
At 1/31/2006 01:59:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jokerman and Mohamed,

I tried to use an unbias copy of the Koran, so I rejected other links of the koran I found and used the one at Southern Cal University. Guess that's not good enough for you two. Now, if there is a version of the english Koran and Ahadiths you two would like me to refer to from here on, let me know. And since I don't read classical Arabic, then my arguments concerning the Prophet is not credible in your eyes? As for books, I purposefully stayed away from them and tried to use only Islam's holy books instead, as many Muslim scholars are not critical of Islam (because criticizing Islam would endanger their lives).

If the argument that version X is not credible because the translation is doubtful, then you guys are basically saying that those who do not read the holy books in Arabic don't know what they're talking about? Sorry, but I don't believe that. Many religious scholars can read both English and Arabic, and they give similar interpretations. Are you saying they are wrong as well? That's a good way to counter any argument about the Prophet: just say the translations are erroneous. Is there not one Muslim scholar who can accurately translate the holy books?


jonas

 
At 1/31/2006 09:24:00 PM, Anonymous abukhalid said...

You're right Mohammed. It is not in the Koran. Jonas is referring to Tabari's commentary on the Koran. That is basically Tabari's attempt at interpretation together with his account of the historical context of the Koran.
Tabari did not live at the time of the Prophet. He was a Turkish historian who lived in the Abbasid era - a good many decades after the Prophet's death.
I don't know how reliable Tabari is considered. That's the sort of thing you can never get any significant number of Muslim jurists to agree on. Tabari is a Sunni so I think we can safely conclude that the Shi'ite establishment consider him an impostor. And Sunni Muslims have 4 major schools of jurispendence who all have their own sources and references and who keep coming up with conflicting fatwas as a result for their followers to squabble over. Let's face it. Muslims may have managed to agree that Mohammed is the Prophet and the Koran is God's Word but that's about it. There is chaos in the word of fatwa. Any idiot can come up with any decree and easily pull two lines of hadith or Koranic commentary from here or there to support it and presto you have a new sect which then proceeds to declare everyone else apostates. The first step towards any reform of Islam I think is to clean up this mess.
There is nothing in the Koran about rape. Any reference to sex is consensual. Yes, men could have sex with female prisoners of war but only if they marry them with their consent and with a contract, just like the wives, the cousins etc....also mentioned in 33:51.Tosay Allah has made another person lawful to you doesn't mean you can force them. It just means you can marry them - unlike your sisters, aunts and other close blood relatives who are not lawful so you cannot marry them even if they consent.
Based on this verse is the modern phenomenon known as "Zawaj Alhiba" or "Marriage By Grant" which is spreading among young people in some Muslim societies. Basically a girl 'grants' herself to her boyfriend and they sign a paper with 2 witnsses and so she becomes 'what his right hand possess' and they can have sex. When they want to stop, he signs another paper 'freeing' her. Then you have temporary marriages in Iran and Lebanon which are normal, contractual marriages except they have an expiry date which can be anything from a day to a month to 6 months later.
I haven't heard any notable scholar comment on these so I'm not sure how Islamic or not Islamic this is. It's young people who got tired of waiting for the scholars to make up their minds taking matters of interpretation into their own hands.:)

 
At 2/01/2006 11:06:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Abukahlid & Jonas, I fully agree with Abukhalid and I'd like to add that this difference of opinion was anticipated, that's why a major theme in the Koran is that it always urges the people to use their brain "oly albab" before blindly following an irrational opinion or fatwa, and there's also the unambigious principle of "estafty calbak" or roughly the best fatwa is the one that your heart feels comfortable with, and "ekelha wa tawakal" or always carefully reason any decision you make and hope it's the right one.
One last note Jonas, regarding the criticism of islam and the koran and the prophet in moslem countries, well believe it or not, a thousand years ago moslem and jewish and christian scholars from andalusia to cairo to baghdad debated and openly criticized those issues with absolute freedom, if you have enough time you can search for the writings of the great arab jewish scholar Musa ibn Maymun (known in the west as Maimonides) and see his critique of islam and his view of the superiority of judaism to islam and christianity, while at the same time was one of the closest advisors to the sultan of egypt, they've even debated ibn maymun's views together and over and over, also another ancient famous arab scholar Abu Bakr Al Razy, argued strongly that although the quality of poetry in the koran is superior, still a more talented poet can come up with better quality poetry, while at the same time till this day he's one of the most respected arab scholars, and in the twentieth century Tha Hussien wrote a landmark study that broke all the taboos in making a comparative study between preislamic poetry and the koran, while he's considered to this day as a literaly colossus all over the arab world, having said that, I have to admit, this freedom to criticize and to question has been
rapidly eroding for the last thirty years.
God, I hate to debate religion, so I have to stop right here in agreement with Abukhalid.

 

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