No laughing matter
After committing the incredibly stupid thing of voting Hamas into power, the palestinians seem to be going "Uh-oh" about the whole thing. Realizing that there ain't nothing they can do now about what they did, they aare taking a page out of the Egyptian passivism book and are making nervous jokes about the whole thing. A slew of jokes circulating among Palestinians following Hamas' landslide election victory reflects concerns that the fundamentalist group will impose Islamic law and social codes across the West Bank and Gaza. As one goes, all police stations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been ordered shut because all complaints must now be filed directly to God. Invoking God and Islamic tradition is the mainstay of all the quips that have been spreading by word of mouth and mobile phone text messages in the past few days. There are good reasons for that...
Hamas officials rushed to deny that they will force their beliefs on Palestinians.
"Rest assured we don't impose our thoughts on anyone," Hamas leader Khaled Maashal said Saturday in the Syrian capital, Damascus. "We will present our thoughts to our people and they have the right to choose."
Many Palestinians were not reassured.
One newly elected legislator has said she plans to submit a bill requiring girls and women to wear the hijab, a headdress covering the hair.
Ok, so enough about the depressing stuff. Want more jokes? Mobile phones are abuzz with text messaged jokes prophesying a new police uniform mirroring the short dress and baggy pants worn by the former hardline Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, and a discount on taxes for Christians who convert to Islam within a week. Nice. It's not all bad though in my opinion. I mean, for the palestinians it is, but not for the rest of us. This will give people a chance to see how a Muslim Brotherhood government will be like once it's in power. It shall give the rest of us a "taste for what's to come" so to speak. I can't wait!
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 1/30/2006 12:28:00 AM
19 Comments:
i knew this would happen. a lot of palestinians are still pretty secular, but chose to think that hamas wouldn't really be religious nutjobs. a terrible mistake.
i've got a post coming up on this whole sorry mess
egypeter,
How much is your jizyah?
Reality strikes again,
Israel's shooting of young girl highlights international hypocrisy, say Palestinians
Chris McGreal in Khan Yunis
Monday January 30, 2006
The Guardian
As the votes were counted in the Palestinian election and the scale of Hamas's landslide became apparent to the world, Aya al-Astal drifted away from her home and wandered towards the fence along the border between the Gaza strip and Israel.
The nine-year-old girl's parents realised she was gone as they watched the election results on television. They do not know precisely what happened, but the Israeli army later said Aya was behaving in a suspicious manner reminiscent of a terrorist - she got too close to the border fence - and so a soldier fired several bullets into the child, hitting her in the neck and blowing open her stomach.
Aya was the second child killed by the Israeli army last week. Soldiers near Ramallah shot 13-year-old Munadel Abu Aaalia in the back as he walked along a road reserved for Jewish settlers with two friends. The army said the boys planned to throw rocks at Israeli cars, which the military defines as terrorism.
The two killings went unnoticed by the outside world amid the political drama, but they made their impact among Palestinians angered by demands from western leaders for Hamas to recognise Israel and renounce its armed struggle.
Some Palestinians see the demands as a rejection of a democratic election and as siding with Israel. Others see hypocrisy. They say Israeli soldiers killed twice as many Palestinians last week alone - both of them children - as the number of Israelis killed by Hamas all last year.
"Aya was shot in the neck and stomach. Her stomach was hanging out," said the child's mother, Aisha. "We have no idea why she went there but she was a child. She was so small. She was nine years old. She didn't wear a hijab. It was clear she was just a young girl. This is hatred."
So Sandmonkey, by all means, you know more than the rest of the world how wonderful the israelis are, please visit the mothers of these two children and tell them how stupid and retarded they are for hating Israelis. Sell-out
What, anon, you don't want to talk about all the Israeli children who've been blown to bits while they were on school busses, etc, etc, etc?
Just wanna talk about one side of the problem. Ok. Off you go then. Have fun with that. I recommend the "Raising Youssef" blog, for you. Not the Sandmonkey blog.
Personally, I'd rather not discuss the issue at all. Things are getting worse, not better, with no end in sight.
Programmer Craig,
Actually i abhor everything that Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Hizbullah etc. do. I have written extensively in local papers decrying it. These acts go against the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu 3layhi wa sallam, and against the Quran.
And I feel deeply for innocent people who are killed wherever they are and whatever religion they come from, this is the reality of Islam, and also the example of Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu 3layhi wa sallam. With that said, the article that appeared in the Guardian is a perfect antidote to those who "stand with Israel" against Hamas; what a joke. The hypocrisy, the disregard for common decency, the utter disrespect for others that Israel displays by killing 4 times as many Palestinians in the last 4 years as Palestinians have killed Israelis. Not to mention 40 and in some cases 60 years of continual brutal military occupation. And if we want to be fair about this, there really aren't innocent people in a war zone, they are called collateral damage thanks to my country America and her allies. So i'll talk all u want about innocent Israelis, and actually care that they were killed as innocents and not use them as a punchline to my arguments like you have.
egypeter,
so you don't pay jizya...ya Kaththab!
cry me a river ya ibni. you need to get in the waiting line if you are waiting for sympathy for your suffering, there is a long line ahead of you. However, if Coptic Christians suffer injustices at the hand of anyone, then I would stand with you and defend you, this is Islam. However, don't do plays that offend people, in the middle east, you're not in Paris genius, and think that people aren't going to be upset. Now you can call people, idiots, retards, backwards, provincial (sandmonkey's stroke of brilliance) but that still doesn't change the reality of the world you live in. I would dearly love to walk in certain parts of my American city but i have a high probability that i will be killed if i do, so i don't. But anyone with a brain knows what coptics are trying to do in Egypt...you are trying to provoke a serious massacre so you can claim your oppressed like Iraqis or Kurds were. However, it looks as if to date, your American and British saviours don't care enough to come and invade Egypt and let you claim Alexandria as your "ancestral home" Copti-stan.
So keep doing plays, provoking people.
And there was a play done just a few weeks ago in Alexandria when the Egyptian police massacred 4-5 muslims, that ought to make you happy right?
egypeter,
you admitted in your first couple of paragraphs that you didn't know how to dissect my "comment", that's obvious since you didn't really answer any of the points i made...you have an impressive array of swear words and are an amazingly good "name-caller" but that doesn't change anything, no wonder you and Sandmonkey are chums.
The point, if i can spell it out for you, is WHY are you complaining about Coptic treatment in Egypt? There are plently of Muslims who have very legitimate complaints on all sorts of issues, Egyptians as a group have universal complaints. Just understand that you live in a country that the US Gov't wants under control and then you will understand alot of Egypt's "problems"
And lastly, of course i don't deny how Copts are treated and i never have, i only tried to get you to be realistic and not so much of a cry-baby about it. But everywhere I have travelled in Egypt i see Copts going to Church, having businesses, working with Muslims, and actually enjoying more freedoms to build churches, according to laws i have heard mentioned in the press. Maybe or not its true, but incessantly crying about it makes me think you and many other Coptics are "crying wolf" a bit.
On talking to many copts knowing that I am an American, with the ability to tell me all sorts of horror stories, i ask them how it is living in egypt with muslims...i have heard nothing but good and kind things.
Further, i am not an expert on Egyptian history, but i know it well i think...and your problem was not with muslims. Your problem started when the British and French invaded egypt and it has continued. This is on display in many places as you see "egyptians" sell-out "egypt" for the West and its "isms". Further, I do not support the Ikhwan, their Manhaj (methodology) in Islam is very poor, and they were also a source of Egypts frustration. But the continuing demise of Egypt will forever be tied to egypts embrace of secularism.
I agree that my "theory" on why the Copts behave as they do to foment a massacre and get the US/UK to step in is a little far-fetched and conspiratorial, although Rwanda is a distant example.
However, since you said you live in the US and a fairly dangerous place like Chicago, I have to ask you a simple question: Would you go into the South-side, anywhere in or around the area of Cabrini Green, and start yelling "Go to Hell all you stupid niggers?" Would you do that? I didnt think so. Because you would be tortured and killed.
And since you wouldn't do that, yet you are arguing for the ability of people to insult people and religion (islam) in what i would argue is a far more personal manner and think that you should not have to stand up and face the law of the street (as barbaric and unislamic as it would be), that makes you a total hypocrite. And everyone else on this kiddy-blog talking about "freedom of speech and expression."
Consider yourselves educated.
Anonymous,why in the world are you living in the US if you hate their policies and and are afraid to walk the streets at night?
I suggest you move back to your wonderful homeland,wherever it is,or to one of the many oppressed areas of the world that could use your help.Heck,I'll even take up a collection for your one-way plane ticket!
"At 10:50 PM, Anonymous said..."
No my dear Anonymous this is a very poor post. The fact that anyone doesn't agree with the current administration doesn't mean we are less American and we should pack and go.
This is totally against what America is all about. If I were you I would be ashamed for saying such thing because you sound very ignorant and you don't understand the essence of the United States.
Egypeter,
Can you please stop refering to copt.net as it is a tabloid. Please get us some other sources as this copt.net is run by extreme Copts.
Anonymous,
Thank you for ignoring the insults and remaining objective.
Anom 6:27,
"So Sandmonkey, by all means, you know more than the rest of the world how wonderful the israelis are"
That looks like sarcastic racism to me, anon, but if you say you really grieve for murdered Israeli innocents, I'll believe you. Unfortunately, the article you posted here didn't contain any such sympathy for Israelis.
"So i'll talk all u want about innocent Israelis, and actually care that they were killed as innocents"
When will you start with that?
"and not use them as a punchline to my arguments like you have."
Oh, so now you not only care about Israelis, you care about them more than I do? In fact, you seem to be implying that I was making some kind of a sick joke about Israeli terror victims?
Do the people you interact with normally let you get away with this kind of thing?
Anon 10:07 who educated everybody:
"Would you go into the South-side, anywhere in or around the area of Cabrini Green, and start yelling "Go to Hell all you stupid niggers?"
Why not? Arab moslems just went to Denmark/Norway and said "Go to hell all you stupid Europeans!" and got away with it, didn't they?
Somehow, I don't feel myself to be enlightened. Your analogy seemed logical, until I attempted to apply it internationally.
You know what's really weird? I'll bet Egyptpeter could go to any neighborhood in Denmark and scream that statement at the top of his lungs, and not a thing would happen to him. Except maybe the cops would send him to the hospital to be checked for a mental disorder.
Do you realize, by the way, that you just equated the reactions of egyptian moslems to violent american street gangs?
Wow, where do I begin?
Anon, habibi, I am going to ignore your sell-out accusation, because, honestly, It is beneath me to even respond to it. I am going to assume that you are a person with a functioning brain-dspite evidence to the contrary- and try to engage your points in regards to egyptian christians.
Your point- which twosret seems to defend for some odd reason- seems to be that the copts are being cry-babie about their abuse, since all egyptians have legitimate complaints. You even cited some incident involving 4-5 egyptians killed by the police in alex as evidence. Ok, not gonna argue against you that all egyptians are opressed by the government and have legitimate complaints. I always pointed that out. What you seem to be missing is that within the opressed egyptian population, the opressed muslims seem to harbor serious hatred and animosity towrads their "coptic brothers", which in essence makes them actually extra opressed in Egypt. The muslim community here seems to want the christians to stop existing for some reason. If a christian attains the impossible build a new church permit and attempts to build a church, they quickly go to the site at night and builda one room mosque and start praying there, stopping the building of a church, since you can't take down a mosque. Examples of that happening are numerous ya basha. The reasoning? Nasret el Islam 3ala el nasarah el kuffarr. Let's not even talk about the christian women who get spit on in the subway (i have a christian girlfriend, you should see what she has to go through) or the mohrem beik incident which u must be familiar with by now. You know what's the difference between what happend in mohrem beik and the example you just cited? In your example the police killed 4 egyptians for no reason, in mohram beik the police had to prevent 5000 angry muslims-so eager to nasret el rassoul wel defa3 3an el islam- from attcking and destorying 5 churches, let alone killing any christians, expecially after that idiot 18 year old who stabbed a nun on the street. Now, if u r unable to realize that there is a difference between those 2 incidents, then you must be really stupid.
Twosret, ana mesh fahmek. which part of what this anonymous said was objective? You agree that copts aren;t persecuted? that the christians are attempting to create a massacre amongst their own to have the brotiosh and americans invade egypt and create coptistan? Wallah 3alashan he claims to be on the palestinian side and against Bush yeb2ah menna we 3aleinah we objective we beta3? Please re-read what he wrote before thanking him ya habibty, cause this is getting weird and unlike you.
SM Baby,
"You agree that copts aren;t persecuted?"
Where did I say that they are not? I just hate exaggeration and the cry baby attitude. I only asked Egypter guy to stop using this site copts.net because it is the tabloid of all times :)
"Wallah 3alashan he claims to be on the palestinian side and against Bush yeb2ah menna we 3aleinah we objective we beta3? "
What does the Palestinian cause have to do with the Copts in Egypt?. I do agree with some of what he wrote on the Palestinians.
I will re-read again in case I missed something but what was the topic again? who brought up the Jizayah and the cry baby coptic syndrome?
Hamas or the Copts in Egypt :)
Programmer Craig,
You said "you don't want to talk about all the Israeli children who've been blown to bits "
Can you kindly please look up the number of Palestinian children dead by Israeli soldiers and Israeli terrorism Vs. the Palestinians?
Sandmonkey,
I'm not egyptian but happen to love egypt a great deal. I do agree that much of the animosity towards Jews and Christians is without justice or merit and is anti-thetical to everything that Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu 3layhi wa sallam taught and the Quran taught muslims in how to deal with them. What makes you in my eyes, and it seems to a few others, a sell-out (not that you should necessarily care what I or others think of you, but since you say you are a muslim then i am saying this to you as a brother, a real brother) is your support of Israel (a different entity than Jew or Judaism) and Neo-conservatism emanating from the United States of which i am born and bred. Anyone who has studied zionism from its concept to its implementation to its ongoing existence agrees that it is a racist ideology. The only people who don't seem to think this are evangelical christians and of course zionist supports. Just checkout Netura Kardiem (sp?) for a group of religious jews who decry zionism and its policies and also call for the dismantling of the illegal jewish state according to jewish law.
So while you decry what happens to the Christians in egypt (a fair assessment), what about Palestinian christians. What if the DFLP had won the palestinian elections? They are a christian terrorist group by definition although i would still brand them freedom fighters.
Now the intent here was to not discuss coptic christians, i asked egypeter what jizya he paid, knowing full well that he was just trying to be funny and mock islam (something that seems to be inbred among the copts), but i just wanted to expose him to everyone else that he is a liar. But for sure, he ought to be paying it, and anyone who knows islamic history knows that it is a very small amount and was even exempted for poor people.
Now, whatever has happened to your egyptian "girlafriend" on the subway is appalling, however the same thing would probably happen to her in a subway in manhattan or chicago etc. Its called rudeness. You will never imagine how my wife and i are looked at, as muslims, when we go into any store or mall ANYwhere in the US.
Lastly, in posts you mention egyptian "hotties" (Nora Younis whoever that is and I am sure she appreciates that comment) and of course here you have mentioned your girlfriend...why do you have to be so disrespectful? Why don't you get married to the girl if you love her or is it that you like being against the majority, thumbing ur nose to popular/religious culture? That's quite mature and makes you just an activist playboy looking for free-love.
Hey there, twosret:
"Can you kindly please look up the number of Palestinian children dead by Israeli soldiers and Israeli terrorism Vs. the Palestinians?"
No, I'm not interested in playing a numbers game with the number of innocents who've been killed by both sides. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make, is that the article that anon quoted was very biased. In fact, it had a 100% bias. It seems to have been written in order to make people blood boil.
To me, it seemed like an article that could have been written by the insurgency in Iraq, complaining about the US "murdering" civilians in Falluja, without ever mentioning the thousands of Iraqi civilians that the insurgency has murdered.
The purpose of such articles is not to get the tructh out. The purpose of such articles is to demonize your enemy.
And I'm still waiting for that anon to express her abundant sympathies for innocent Israelis who have been murdered.
I don't want to (and I won't) engage in a moral discussion on this issue. Both sides are wrong, in my opinion. I only ask that if somebody with an agenda comments, that they don't try to mask their agenda with a false claim of objectivity.
Oh, this anon who just posted is too much... twosret, what is it you like about this guy? Every example of injustice, he uses a false analogy to prove that the same injustice exists everywhere, and therefore should not be condemned. He asks Sandmonkey not to be RUDE to moslems, and then says the unfortunate bigotry his Christian girlfriend recieves from moslems is mere rudeness, and that he shouldn't worry about it!?
Moral is, moslems can be rude to Christians and that's OK, but Sandmonkey cannot be rude to moslems, or he's sellout.
Good job, anon. You have convinced me. I feel educated, again!
programmer craig,
I draw a very definite line between the Israeli gov't and the Israeli people in line with islamic teachings. So when i say how "Israel" treats Palestinians its how the Israeli gov't treats palestinians. And no i am not racist, i don't even believe in the concept of race, its not islamic, its indeed forbidden to talk in those terms, and race-ism was a european invention out of the enlightenment age, ironic no?
What is racism is how palestinians are treated by Israel; otherwise known as zionism. The reason i didn't feel the need to minimize Palestinian sympathy with an empty, politically expedient statistic on Israeli suffering is because there really is no historic comparison that is worthy of debate between the two peoples, on who has suffered more at the hands of the other. And in case you didn't notice, my post was a counter-post to Sandmonkey's nonsense of ALWAYS taking the Israeli side and bashing Palestinians. He just didn't like the outcome of the election, called Palestinians a bunch of names (racist by your own definition) so i was offering a reality check. Look at the juxtapostion: Israel murders a little girl on the day of the election, the whole world doesnt' notice this and yet looks down their noses and the dirty arab rag-heads for electing Hamas democratically, Hamas can actually STOP murdering as it has not killed an Israeli in over 1 year. In Israel it seems to be national policy and indeed it is if you read Israeli leaders statements, to murder and frustrate Palestinians. So who is worse, someone who can quit killing or the one who seems genetically programmed to do so?
#2, not saying its not true, but i'd like some evidence about what you say that Arab went to denmark and told europeans they were stupid and to go
#3, the reason my analogy is bulletproof, indicting egypeter, sandmonkey, and yourself maybe (i dont know if you whole-heartedly subscribe to their theories) is because my analogy is speaking about reality. The others on here are talking about a utopia of disrespect otherwise known as freedom of expression, a purely theoretical state that does not nor will ever exist for the reasons that i have stated in my example about insulting people. I heard one person say once that "your freedom of expression stops where you incite me to kick your ass". My comment to egypeter was that if Copts in egypt want to do something truly insane like have a play that makes fun of religious figures, they ought to be ready to suffer the consequences (isn't that a hallmark of christianity, suffering!!??). Not that I want them to suffer, but not everyone who lives on earth is a cool dude who doesn't care about anything. See in Islam its forbidden to insult any of the Prophets, peace be upon them all, other religions, and even each other. Alot of muslims will never insult the Prophets, peace be upon them, but they do unfortunately insult religions and everyone insults people. Sandmonkey and some of his supporters and "hotties" as he has reduced them to, are pretty ignorant of Islam otherwise they would understand the intellectual and religious reasons that are quite rational and moderate for why NO prophet should be allowed to be made fun of.
Lastly, i did not equate egyptian muslims with violent street gangs, you are showing your prejudice to easily, thanks for playing...the people who kick someone's butt for making fun, or insulting them, are those who simply had too much self-respect. Of course it could lead to some mindless violence, but the point has been made clearly and irrefutably. You dont' insult people because you respect them and at the least would fear for you safety, and you disrespect people to either foment violence against them on a large scale but at the root is total disregard and disresepct.
Be careful you are not the unwitting fool because they are often the hardest to educate.
programmer craig,
ommm, i am not sure what you are reading but its not my posts...maybe you have that nasty habit so many have of "reading what they want to see".
so let's dissect a bit...
you said Oh, this anon who just posted is too much... twosret, what is it you like about this guy? Every example of injustice, he uses a false analogy to prove that the same injustice exists everywhere, and therefore should not be condemned. He asks Sandmonkey not to be RUDE to moslems, and then says the unfortunate bigotry his Christian girlfriend recieves from moslems is mere rudeness, and that he shouldn't worry about it!?
Moral is, moslems can be rude to Christians and that's OK, but Sandmonkey cannot be rude to moslems, or he's sellout.
Good job, anon. You have convinced me. I feel educated, again!
1. "Injustice should not be condemned": wrong...try my answer of "injustice should be condemned at all times" as i have argued...you are the one who seems to want to exclude the israeli gov't.
2. "The rudeness should not be worried about":...wrong...what was clear is that you find rude people everywhere. Sandmonkey made a ridiculous claim that somehow christians in egypt are treated by muslims in egypt to a new level of ridicule and scorn unbeknownst to modern, medieval, or prehistoric man. My response was merely to deconstruct his emotionalism (i am sure it hurts seeing or hearing about your girlfriend have somethng bad happen to her but not having the manhood to fix it). guys like that often make the problem sound much worse than it is which is what i am saying...the problem presented is presented in an emotional and devoid of reality. However, rudeness of course should be worried about, i speak out against that as well, as Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu 3layhi wa sallam said: "i have not been sent but to correct peoples' manners."
#3 "Muslims can be rude to Christians": wrong...see education point #2 above.
#4 "Asking Sandmonkey not to be rude to muslims or he's a sellout.": wrong...Sandmonkey's status as sellout is up to him and is not reflected in whether he's nice to muslims or not. I am assuming that sandmonkey claims muslim-ness, maybe i was wrong. If he's coptic then it would make all the more sense. What i am calling sandmonkey out on is hypocrisy. He claims to care about christians and their rights in egypt, a noble cause, but why wouldn't he inform them of the reality of the situation, they are a tiny minority. Why wouldn't he warn them that they maybe shouldn't insult islam and Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu 3layhi wa sallam. And why would a coptic christian, getting back to this topic unfortunately, feel it necessary to insult another religion. Are they so insecure themselves with their own religion that they can only make fun of theirs? See and that's the point, instead of calling muslims idiots and retards, why wouldn't he call those who obviously show signs of retardation and death-cult attributes, (coptics) for bringing on their own hatred.
see in the US, muslims are the target of criticism because we don't "condemn" terrorism enough. And the average american, albeit bigotedly, looks down upon muslims and with suspicion and scorn for not being visibly opposed to terrorism. So if christians are going to make fun of islam in a muslim country and be proud of it, and not condemn it (openly, i am sure there are some coptics who think its horrible and stupid to make fun of islam), then in a way its almost natural and expected that average egyptians would look down upon christians and not make them feel welcome. So while i blame my fellow americans for not dissociating a religion from the actions of its adherents, its also hard at the same time to blame them because its asking them to be awfully forward thinking when that will never happen over night. Which gets back to the point, Sandmonkey is blaming the muslim world for its emotional attachment to the Prophet, sal Allahu 3layhi wa sallam, which is natural even if he thinks it irrational, astaghfirullah. He is blaming Muslims for being upset at christians that muslims just don't lie down and accept that Christians should be allowed to make fun of Islam and the Prophet, sal Allahu 3layhi wa sallam, when we would never make fun of Jesus, 3isa, 3layhi salaam.
One of the anons said:
"And no i am not racist, i don't even believe in the concept of race, its not islamic, its indeed forbidden to talk in those terms, and race-ism was a european invention out of the enlightenment age, ironic no?"
That's an interesting comment. How many Arabs did Arab slave traders sell into bondage in Europe and the Americas? As opposed to the millions of black africans that were sold into slavery, I mean.
I consider your accusations that Europeans invented racism to be racist in and of themselves, anon. Ironic, no?
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