Just a thought
Considering how the offended people are burning embassies now, which is technically a declaration of war since they are attacking foriegn soil, how funny would it be if this thing continues its momentum and escelates into the always prophesized World War between the Middle East and the West? How would the History Books describe the begining of the conflict exactly? "Well, the whole thing started when a Danish Newspaper printed 12 cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed, which lead the Muslims- who got really offended- all over the world to respond by burning Danish flags and Cheese. Because the Danish Prime Minister refused to apologize in the name of his country for what a danish Newspaper did, this burning of cheese and LEGO later on escelated into burning Danish embassies, which were located in buildings that hosted the embassies of other EU countries, which were also incidently NATO countries, whose leaders eventually got tired of this bullshit and warned that it will attack any country that allows their embassies to get attacked. A terrorist dirty bomb attack in France by syrian terrorists prompted French President Chirac to actually "scratch that itch" and nuke Syria as he threatend with "za fwench newcleaar bombe", which enraged all the muslim countries, led to huge unrest and revolutions, and brought to power the craziest elements the Muslim fanatic camp has to offer. Wasting no time, they declared full Jihad on Europe, and started what has become known the Western-Islamic Cartoon war." How stupid would THAT be? I bet the kids will laugh their asses off during History class. That is, of course, if such a war left any survivors at all. Does anybody else feel like they want to get off this Planet?
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 2/05/2006 07:07:00 AM
40 Comments:
I sure hope that when this is all over (if ever!) that someone will have enough humour to actually write such a history-book :)
Unfortunately, this is not any more absurd than the events following the shooting of Archduke Ferdinand at Sarajevo on Sunday, 28th June, 1914.
anat
it is more absurd by all reckoning. Those Embassy torchings show again how hypocritical those muslims who did it. Remember how arabs & muslims asserted after 9-11 that those perpetrators do not represent arabs or islam? They were correct ofcourse, but then...their own hypocrisy shows how idiotic & juvenile they still are. Now why dont they simply direct that idea to themselves, can the Danish & Norwegian governments be responsible because of those cartoonists that it pushes them to burn the whole embassy?
What if americans had torched down the Saudi arabian embassy? what would have the arabs said then???
anyway, the torchings are political using religion as always.
clearly the syrians under heat ordered the embassy to be torched & gave the orders to followers of hizbullah in lebanon to do the same.
As for indonesia, now those people scare me.
The sad thing is this is actually happening. My wish is that every single new media outlet in the free world would publish these stupid cartoons, they they can boycott the ENTIRE GLOBE. Our problem would soon be over as the muslim world produces nothing but OIL.
"Wasting no time, they declared full Jihad on Europe, and started what has become known the Western-Islamic Cartoon war."
You REALLY don´t want to go there. Western civilisation might be portrayed as weak and decadent at the moment, but we do carry centuries of expertise in destruction and carnage in our hereditary luggage.
And then there´s the fact that Western civilisation has resources that dwarfs the Muslim worlds.
Please do everything to stop the crossing of that line. Our children will not laugh in school when they read about the next war. Make it not happen.
/Limagolf
Please, watch your words. I refuse to believe that "Arabs are stupid" but it could be possible that "Arabs are KEPT stupid".
Anyway, I am trying to gasp the whole picture of this.
On my search I found the following weblog by a Dane: http://bibelen.blogspot.com/ who mentions some interesting details (please let me know if these details are incorrect), for example:
1.
Pakistani death threats towards cartoonists in December 2005
http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php?story=20051202212207504
2.
The Islamisk Trossamfund speaks for all 200,000 Muslims in Denmark - as the Community's spokesman, Kasem Ahmed, has claimed - but the truth is very different. The newspaper found that a more correct figure would be 15.000. Thus "The Danish Islamic Community" do not represent the 4% Muslims in Denmark, but only 7.5% of the 4%.
3.
Actually JyllandsPosten had asked several experts before publishing, and had received the same answer as I have posted before: The prohibition against drawings of Mohammed is disputed - and any prohibition there might be, only applies to believers.
4.
So Mr. Ahmad and his cohorts will tour the Middle East with his propaganda booklet, where he has a copy of the 12 drawings that "almost made him sick and could make him become a terrorist" to make sure that everybody in the Middle East will see the drawings so they in turn can "almost become sick and almost could become a terrorist" as well.
And just in case the pictures weren't bad enough to "I almost make them sick and make them become terrorists", Mr. Ahmad has added his own false Mohammed drawings to ensure that everybody in the Middle East "almost become sick and almost could become a terrorist".
5.
And if images aren't enough, then their propaganda material will tell you that the 12 innocent images in JyllandsPosten are a part of a campaign to persecute Muslims.
I am so relieved that an American embassy wasn't attacked. The Marines will go down shooting and lose their lives to protect our embassy. It would be a real carnage. BTW, where were the Dutch guards?
Comeon, folks,
What I meant with the Sarajevo 1914 comparison is that a local event swells up to a world war, and that in both cases this was probably no more than an excuse.
Secondly, I object to generalisations on Arabs as much as on Jews or anybody. The trouble is the Jihadists, who have been brewing oppression for nearly a century now, chiefly against their own people. Europe has woken up too late and for the wrong reasons.
This isn't going to escalate because Iran is just flexing. It looks like only Syrians, Hamas and Hezbollah are burning things (when aren't they burning things btw). I hope this isn't the start of a new "Islamic Revolution".
Do Muslims think they have a responsibility to keep extremist Islamists in check? I can't imagine condoning Christians doing the same things - we would shut them down quick. Maybe it is time that the Muslim voices who speak out against the extremist Islamists activities and beliefs become much louder and their actions prevalent because right now the extremist Islamists are drowning out everybody.
Joanne
I hate Islam. Islam is a bane on the civilized world. If the French end up nuking anything, I hope it is Mecca. Let the Muslims pray toward a crater five times each day.
anonymous 11:07,
I don't hate Islam. In fact I rather like many things about it better than I like christianity. However, to be equally honest, I am developing a hatred towards Arabs. They have far to many ignoranmous people following far too many power-hungry hypocrits who incite far too much hatred and racism and are far too quick to incite violence. What they call culture looks like a festering pile of dung to me. Dictators, oppression, clerics with armies, death to the infidel, secret police, political assasinations .... what a big stinking pile of dung they live in. and they're too frickin insecure to do anything about it.
My dad once told me something very meaningful. He said "Son, there's nothing wrong with falling into a bucket of shit. It's only a problem if you don't get out."
I'm starting to think that the arabs like it inside of a bucket. They keep hoping that someday it will be their turn to hold the handle.
SM,
I think you have an idea re that another planet. How does Tralfamador look to you?
The only problem that we may encounter there is that they for sure have their own version of Christians, Muslims and, of course, Jews...
I am still supporting the boycott but I totally disagree with what happened in Syria and Lebanon and with any violent action or expresison.
Again, we have the right to stand against whoever insults our Prophet who represents more than a historical personality to us. It is exaclty as Jews fight hardly against whoever dare to question the holocaust.
Monkey, if people do not fight (in the appropriate and peaceful manners) for thier dignity and thier case, what else they can fight for? Money?
We all support freedom of experssion but not to defame and insult others.
I feel sad that such incidents allow the white-hood trash to raise thier voices!
We all support freedom of experssion but not to defame and insult others.
I feel it is even *more* important to support freedom of speech when it is not something we want to hear.
In the US, the KKK (of which you may or may not be familiar) thinks that only whites should have anything in life, that only white people are good and only white people should live in the US, and the US supports their right to insult everyone else because they have the right to believe this!
What they can't do is actually incite violence against any group, but they can stand there with their megaphone and shout to the world that they think only whites have any rights.
So yes, freedom of speech means nothing if you can only say stuff that agrees with other's thinking. Freedom of speech is only real if you support the right of someone else to *not* be nice to you and what you believe.
I could argue that Christians have *more* right to be offended with Muslims than Muslims have to be offended with Denmark. How you ask? Well, you say that they insulted your prophet. I could say that you insult our G-d by calling him *only* a prophet. Do you see what I'm talking about?
Now I'm not saying that I am offended, only that *by its very nature* disagreeing with another's religion or point of view can in itself be seen as offensive to the one you disagree with.
But it doesn't matter because the freedom of speech allows you to call my G-d merely a prophet and you don't have to worry about losing your job and being arrested by the government for doing so! Unlike that poor, brave Jordanian who lost his job and is arrested now because he was brave enough to pose the question that, unfortunately, never got an answer.. which insults Islam more?
No one else in the world even noticed the cartoons because, frankly, the rest of the world has better things to do than read a Danish newspaper.
But you'd sure as hell better believe we noticed when Syrians torched the embassies.
So which paints a more insulting view of Islam? Freedom of speech to allow another person the right to not agree with you, or violent riots and the calling of a new holocaust against Europe?
I will say this: G-d bless Turkey! http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060205/capt.ist10702051440.turkey_denmark_prophet_drawings_ist107.jpg?x=237&y=345&sig=VFxGgZNtjrMXnXbbSNQ4HQ--
(though perhaps someone can answer, is the flame over the Star of David a good thign or a bad thing?? I hope they are not saying that Judaism should burn??)
But guess what, even if that is what that sign means, freedom of speech in Europe and America would give you ever right to display that sign and not worry about being arrested!
Sometimes it feels like Jesus is insulted daily here in the US, but it does not affect my faith or my freedom to practice my faith one bit.
Do I *like* it?? Of course not, and yes some of it does make me angry, but Jesus taught us to *bless those who curse us*!!!! If you believe in Jesus too, why don't you remember his teachings?
"You have heard that it is written, love your friends and hate your enemies; but I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, and do good to those who use and persecute you. For if you only love those who love you, what benefit is it to you? Even sinners love those who love them."
That is *my* faith. That is why, no matter what someone says or draws or portrays Jesus as doing, it does not matter because Jesus *is not hurt by it*. It does not stop me from believing in what I believe.
It's sad that when people like Sandmonkey are speaking up with the (albeit colourful) voice of reason, that others have chosen to respond with Islamophobia and anti-Arab comments.
Stephen
(white European philosophical Daoist)
One of the groups that will suffer the most from muslims' tandrum are the christians in muslim countries. They are being killed left and right by muslims, and in far greater numbers than the palestinians in the Middle East. If the western world infuriate muslims more, the muslims in those muslim countries will take it out on the christians. It's like having a brother-in-law who beats up your sister but you can't really confront him about it, because you know he'll beat her some more when you're not around.
I'm scratching my head thinking how we as a human race can avoid this seemingly inevitable bloodshed with the muslims, but I have no luck in isolating any good solution. And don't forget folks. We have nukes and biochemical wmd's now. It doesn't take much to piss off the muslims.
So much violence and mayhem just to protect their holy prophet? Unbelievable.
I fear that after the next wmd attack on some western country, the elusive moderate muslims will come out and say that's not what islam is all about, even though at the same time other muslims across the globe will be celebrating in the streets. I apologize in advance, but my faith in the religion of peace is less than zero.
jonas
elengil,
I don't think that I will use the American society which I really respect as my ideal standards.
I support freedom of experssion as long as it is support the public interest. What would be the benefit of publishing the cartoons in question to the Danish society? Just to hurt the Muslims minority in that country?
Anyway, let's not mix things together. It is not a holy or religious conflict between Muslims and Christians...it is a political dilemma arised from a religous reason. Muslims are angry because Denmark gov did not react wisely with the local protestors and the matter then went beyond control and became a global issue.
But this is a message to all Christians and Europeans, we respect you and we hope that you will understand our position and our anger.
So by burning an embassy or two they hope the two parts will have a chat?
So the next time the Danish government doesn't meet the local Muslims there is going to be another riot?
There are more than 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Have they no interest in stopping this madness?
Dear Blower.
I fully respect your support for the boycott and the peaceful way you express them.
The PM in Denmark has in his New Years speech explained how he felt and that was before the boycott began.
He has talked to the danish moslem community and the arab world.
http://www.um.dk/en/servicemenu/News/FrontPageNews/StatementByTheDanishPrimeMinisterAndersFoghRasmussenRegardingTheDrawingsOfTheProphetMohammed.htm
The newspaper has apologized.
It is on their front page. www.jp.dk
The danish moslems are satisfied.
What will it take to make you satisfied?
Best wishes
From Denmark
"It's sad that when people like Sandmonkey are speaking up with the (albeit colourful) voice of reason, that others have chosen to respond with Islamophobia and anti-Arab comments."
Well said Stephen. A lot of ME blogs that I link to think the reactions to the cartoons are insane. I’ve quoted some of them here, including Sandmonkeys.
Hehe, awesome. Also embarrassing. But you are right. Maybe the history books will say "And the Sandmonkey, Roba, the Big Pharoah, Jameed, Farooha, and co, all looked and said, 'I told you so'."
Stephen & Rancher, thanks for being reasonable and sane.
Anon @11:24, believe it or not sometimes I have similar ideas about the arabs (including the egyptians) myself, yet still, that's an oversimplification, because if you had a chance to see for your self, almost each of those countries' circumstances are as different as night and day.
Blower,
"But this is a message to all Christians and Europeans, we respect you and we hope that you will understand our position and our anger."
We don't. This is having a MASSIVE impact on US public opinion, and we aren't even involved in it - yet. It's not a matter of lawful indigination anymore. It's a matter of violent criminal behavior by moslems.
I supported the boycott. I don't anymore.
Anon 10:19,
"The Marines will go down shooting and lose their lives to protect our embassy. It would be a real carnage."
Not if the Ambassador orders them not to, which has happened before. Then again, this tactic has not worked well before. After Tehran, my hope is that the US will never again allow a US embassy to fall without defending it. So, I guess I think it would be a carnage. I'm hoping the US has (or soon will) evacuated every US embassy in the middle east. If the Marines killed several hundred rioters before being over-run, that could cause a civil war in some ME countries. It could also start a REAL war with the United States.
No sense in looking for trouble.
I'll stay on the planet. Those other jerks can get off.
SK
Damn.... another intelligent poster beat me to it.
I was going to mention that the event that started WWI was the shooting of Archduke Ferdinand by an anarcist. It was not an attack by one nation's miitary against another nation. It was simply one nut with one gun.
This one murder triggered a cascade of events, most being mutual defence aid treaties, that lead to a full one world war.
Of course that murder didn't happen in a vacumn. At the time, Europe was like a room filled with gas waiting to explode. The shot was simply the spark.
"Does anybody else feel like they want to get off this Planet?"
Yes.
I just got back from a party with very moderate people in the US where this was being discussed.
Here is what I learned....Americans don't care what was printed on a cartoon...oh they thought it was rude and all but nothing and I mean nothing in their mind justifies this response. They ALL just kept shaking their heads and saying that people from the Middle East are crazy.
This is not helping the image of the violent folks.
One of the myths of international law is that embassies and consulates are "foreign soil." They are not. Sorry.
Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, 1961
Article 22
1. The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission.
2. The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity.
3. The premises of the mission, their furnishings and other property thereon and the means of transport of the mission shall be immune from search, requisition, attachment or execution.
There's plenty more, that's just one of the conventions on Consular Law. But that's all the leg work I feel like doing right now :)
AK, you are semantically correct, though. The actual piece of real estate a mission is on is usually leased, and does not LITERALLY belong to a foreign government. However, it is treated as if it did for as long as the mission is in operation. But that's an unimportant distinction you are trying to make. It makes no difference whatsoever to the nature of an attack on an embassy, being an attack on the sending nation itself.
It seems that most of us here agree that violent Islamist are mad and dangerous. But to stop there will not enlighten us very much more that they are mad.
I wonder how many, percentage wise of the total Islamic population who could be classified as violent and dangerous to other peoples lifes? Any estemates anybody? Sources?
Why are theese people so incredible angry and willing to resort to violence? It seems to me (Swedish conditioned brain) that this people are mostly amongs Islamic people, not any amongs Buddist, Taoist, ect. The next most violent religious group I can think of is, American Christian Fundamentalist, with the bible in one hand and the Gun in the other and some how they have missed reading comanment number 7, You Shall Not Kill. Jews are killing Palestinians and vice versa ofcourse, Muslims and Hindues in Kashmir are killing each other.
But why are Islamic people so fucking angry over just a cartoon?
How can this situation be dismantel? What is needed for Islamic people to feel happy and harmonic in the world so they do not explode in anger any more?
I learned today, that the Swedish King (Dictator) instigated a law in 1734 (272 years ago) "That he who insulted God or his teachings should be punished to death." In 1864 the punishment was changed to imprisonment (142 years ago). The article also sad that the King and the feodal elite used the religion to controll and supress the freedom and rights of the people, so evolution of freedom and democracy went hand in hand with cursing and rediculing religion (Christian Protestans). The right for men and women to vote in free and fair and competetive elections (democrasy) happend for the fist time in 1921 in Sweden (only 85 years ago). There is plenty of old and empty churges in Sweden today, but only 1% of the population goes to church on a regular basis (once a week), mostly they are old ladies (widows). I only go to church for baptist, wedding and funeral cermonies and so do most Swedish people. I do not have any friend or know of anybody who is religious and goes to church on a regular basis and prays to God. That is very different from how it used to be only 100 years ago and very different to what people are doing in the Middle East as I understand.
In Sweden religion died when democracy and freedom was born. But in America, the creator of democracy, do not seem to share that same evolution, Americans today are very religious and very freedom and democratic oriented.
Some how, we are all human beings, and share the same design, but our minds have been conditioned in accordance with our culture and civilization (enviroment), so what is missing? Why is it so hard to live in peace and harmony with each other?
Nice talking to you.
Peter
blower
I don't think that I will use the American society which I really respect as my ideal standards.
I used America because I am American and could draw directly from my own knowlege of my country for examples. You don't have to use America as your standard for a damn thing.
I support freedom of experssion as long as it is support the public interest. What would be the benefit of publishing the cartoons in question to the Danish society? Just to hurt the Muslims minority in that country?
Anyway, let's not mix things together. It is not a holy or religious conflict between Muslims and Christians...it is a political dilemma arised from a religous reason. Muslims are angry because Denmark gov did not react wisely with the local protestors and the matter then went beyond control and became a global issue.
But this is a message to all Christians and Europeans, we respect you and we hope that you will understand our position and our anger.
To echo someone else.. NO, we *don't* understand either your position or your anger! Not anymore! Why is it a message to all Christians? Do YOU not understand, European nations are not theocracies! They do not represent *any* religion, Christianity least of all. It was not Christians who did this, it was not even *governments* who did this. Our governments have *no say whatsoever* over what our newspapers print! It doesn't work that way here! That is what you don't understand.
You want us to enforce *your* laws on *our* people! It doens't work that way! You can't make the Danish government do anything to the newspaper, the Danish government has no authority to fire the paper, has no right to punish the cartoonists.. and anyway, punish them for what? They did not break Danish law! Get *that* through your head, NO DANISH LAWS WERE BROKEN so the newspaper CAN NOT be charged with a crime!!!!
The Denmark government *had no legal ability* to give the reaction that was being demanded of it! Unlike the Arab countries, the governments do not control the media!
The real problem is, you don't even know why the paper published those cartoons to begin with! No, it was not to pointedly insult Muslims. You say why? The reason has been stated time and again! The Danish paper printed them to open up an INTERNAL DIALOGUE within Denmark about whether Denmark, as a free and secular European nation, should be censoring itself based on the laws of a religion (ANY religion!).
It had nothing to do with insults, it had nothing to do with inciting violence, it had nothing to do with THE REST OF THE WORLD. It was for Denmark and Denmark only!
The problem was when the muslim cleric decided to take three UNPUBLISHED cartoons that he had to have made up himself and circulate those around the Arab countries. Why don't you turn your anger on him for wilfully distrubuting blasphemous pictures of the prophet and lying about them!?
What I find most hypocritical about this is that the very freedom of speech you hate so much for allowing this, ALSO allowed the Muslims in Brittain to march on the Danish embassy and hold signs promising more terrorism, promising 9/11, 7/7 and 3/11 style attacks, promising a *real* holocaust. The very freedom they hate someone else using, they themselves were protected by. How truly ironic. If they had marched promising death and violence against an Arab government or nation, just how far would they have gotten, hm?
Sandmonkey: I have just read your blogpost at Flopping Aces. Some of the comments there are interesting, but I wanted to post mine here, for your to read.---Many have said that you should not have to apologize for the idiocy of radical fundamentalists, and they are right. However, there is one very good reason for apologizing, and that is the one you gave: To remind people that there are every-day, man-in-the-street Muslims who do not agree with what is going on. There is a saying in American journalism: "If it bleeds, it leads." That is why voices like yours are drowned out. Sadly, it also has made many people forget that those like you even exist. I have met far too many who think ALL Muslims are like the radicals.---As an American, I support free speech. The government has no place reprimanding a newspaper for what it prints, no matter how offensive. However, at the same time, in this country, it has long been taught that every freedom has an attached responsibility to exercise it ethically. Too many people seem to forget that such a thing as responsibility exists.---Thank you, Sandmoneky, for your thoughtful post. Keep on blogging!
"Are Arabs just stupid?"__Obviously not, but many are ignorant or confused - which is not surprising as they live in countries with no free press. And the more ignorant they are, the louder they shout.
Sandmonkey is right, defacing or disturbing anyone's embassy is an outright act of war.
Funny how we forget that Iran did that to us in 1979.
And yes, freedom does entail responsibility BUT as someone else here quipped WE (U.S.) didn't storm any embassies after 9/11.
I'm very, very much afraid that we are headed into Armageddon with the crazy fundamentalist Islamists leading the pack.
P. Edward Murray
I was going to mention that the event that started WWI was the shooting of Archduke Ferdinand by an anarcist. It was not an attack by one nation's miitary against another nation. It was simply one nut with one gun.
Not quite; it was a Serb Nationalist conspiracy with grenades and guns. THe morning of the shooting, one of the assassin threw a grenade that hit the awning of the car, and didn't go off. The Archduke was advised to change the plan, but laughed it off.
The next most violent religious group I can think of is, American Christian Fundamentalist, with the bible in one hand and the Gun in the other and some how they have missed reading comanment number 7, You Shall Not Kill.
Hmm. When was the last Fundie shoot-em-up, by the way?
Neo-nazis hate the jews. Islamists hate the jews. Neo-nazis deny that the holocaust happened. Islamists deny that the holocaust happened. Neo-nazis want the right to deny that the holocaust happened. Islamists want the right to deny that the holocaust happened. You both have a lot in common. You are made for eachother
I wonder if the Arabs who use neo-nazi propaganda to prove their case that the holocaust never happened really understand what else neo-nazis belive in?
You know, minor details like white-supremacy. That northern europeans are innately superior to all other people? That other races(like Arabs!) are fit for nothing but slavery or extermination?
I guess this is one of the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situations.
Last week on Big Pharoah's blog a moslem guy actually *linked* me to a neo-nazi site to prove his case about the holocaust. Did he not KNOW what that banner icon (nazi flag with the swastika replaced by an N) meant? I mean, how much more obvious does it get?
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