My response to MaGdee!
Dear MaGdee, Thank you for the incredibly humorous comments you left me the other day. I have had the biggest laugh cause of your post, so thanks for that! I have been waiting on one of you to get some balls and come over here and say something, although I didn’t expect it to be this soon. I guess I am getting more popular then I thought. However, I must say I was a little disappointed by it. I mean, I expected you to come over here and do some rambling and not have an actual argument to pose or anything, and i was right as usual. But to actually do that without leaving the name of your blog or even an e-mail so I can return the favor, well, MaGdee, that’s kind of a pussy thing to do. God forbid I come over your blog and expose you for the idiot you are. If I didn’t know any better I would say that you are afraid of me. Hmm… However, I am kinda curious, why did you exactly decide to come over here and ramble without a point? I mean, did you like tell everyone you knew who reads this that you are going to come over and “Put me in my place” or something? Are you satisfied being the group’s cowardly hero? If that’s the case, then congrats my friend for a mission accomplished. Unfortunately you have shown yourself off to be a complete idiot in the mean time, and I am writing this post to explain to you why that is! I know people like you MaGdee, and I have to say that you are a complete cliché. “Ohh, darn, Sandmonkey and Big Pharaoh have opinions that are at variance with my own. Can’t have that now can we”? It’s not like you think for yourself or anything, you just repeat what everyone around you tells you and for that I pity you. You just don’t know any better. Let’s see, you (and alleged others) called me a “self-hating idiot”, which is really what you are my friend. I wish I was self-hating, then I wouldn’t care that much about how bad we- as Arabs- have fucked ourselves over. Apparently wanting democracy and change makes me self-hating. I did not know that that’s what it took! I always thought I loved my country- Egypt that is- and wanted it to get better. And while I may be not doing much but rant on a blog, at least I am doing something. I have some ideas and solutions on how we could improve the shitty situation of our country. Do you? Have you ever done anything besides bitching about how things are fucked up and then changed the subject? And what are you defending exactly MaGdee? Do you even know? Ohh and the reason why I didn’t call myself a “SandNi****” is because I actually do know some black people that would kick your ass for using that word. I can introduce you to them one day, although I am not sure that you would walk away alive afterwards. I didn’t know about Dune coon or raghead though. Those are new to me. I will add them to the “Sandmonkey” post just for you. And for my “Redneck” friends as well. Gotta keep them happy, you know? I can’t help but wonder though, how much of a racist are you MaGdee? You know calling people Ni***rs and rednecks? Calling people names MaGdee isn’t very nice! Didn’t your mommy teach you that? Guess not! Anyway… To answer your question MaGdee, no, spending 5 years in the US didn’t make me an American, but it led me to further understand American life, society and perspective. Unlike the majority of Internationals that go there for school, I actually made an effort to make American friends and try to understand their society and way of life a little. I am actually capable of seeing things from their perspective as well as the Egyptian one. I know that being able to hold and compare 2 different points of views or perspectives might seem really hard for you to do, but it isn’t for me. My point is, there are some things in American society that I disagreed with, but a lot that I agreed with, found lacking in our own and wished we had. You know, like being able to debate ideas, hold democratic elections, freedom of speech, religious freedom, Tolerance for other cultures and religions. You know, crazy radical notions like that. But you, of course as the defender of everything egyptian, Arabic and Islamic, are against all that, right? Ohh, And I was in the states 2 years before 9/11 you idiot. Check the math. As for being Pro-Israel, well, that really came later, but taking the logical road there started a while ago. Let’s debate the facts, shall we? When the Jews started immigrating there after World War II, they started buying lots of the land from the Palestinians there, who were more then happy to sell it. After a while, the Hagannah’s and other Israeli terrorist groups like the Stern group started bombing stuff and kicked the British out. Did the Palestinians, who saw “their” land getting occupied get up and fight for it? Nope. Ran away and asked everyone else to fight for them instead, and that of course started the 1948 war which Egypt of course fought in and lost. After that Egypt fought against Israel 3 more wars and in every war we ended up losing, and yes, that includes the Yom Kippur war. We lost that one MaGdee, I am sorry to shatter your illusions, but we did. I know I know, with the celebrations we have every year you might think we won, but we really didn’t. It’s a lie. Ever wonder if we were really winning why we accepted the American seize-fire instead of finishing the job? It’s because we were losing the war my friend. And if you want proof, check out any History Book that was not printed in egypt and you will find that Israel won that war. And if that's only there because it's a jewish conspiracy to rewrite history, well then check out the name of the peace negotiations. They were called the “Kilo 101 negotiations”, because the Israelis second army-under Sharon’s leadership mind you- was 101 Kilometers away from Cairo in Port Saeed, while the whole Egyptian army was stuck in Sinai. It’s why Saddat accepted the seize fire MaGdee. But you probably don’t know that! People like you don’t need facts. Everything you know you just heard from someone else and you repeat like a parrot. But, that’s ok, as I said, you don’t know any better. Anyway.. So where were the Palestinians in the middle of all that someone might ask? Did they fight in any of those 4 wars? You know, volunteer or send money or something? Nope, nope and nope. They could’ve caused some sort of uprising when the Yom Kippur war started and thus completely messed the Israelis up with an attack from inside as well as outside, but they didn’t. They chose not to! Why bother, the Egyptians will do it! There is an actual saying that period MaGdee, I am not sure you know it, but it went like this: “The Arabs will fight Israel until the last Egyptian soldier”! We lost 100,000 Egyptians in those wars MaGdee, and we didn’t even get a thank you. Instead we were- and still are- called Traitors and cowards by those we fought for and who did not fight. You know who the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat were fighting in the 1970’s? King Hussein of Jordan. Yes, other Arabs you freakin moron. The Palestinians didn’t start the Intifadah until 1984, almost 40 years after the War of Israel. By that time Israel was its own country with institutions and generations of people born and raised there, thus having as much right of the land as the Palestinians did. You know what were the Palestinians doing all that time? They were kidnapping planes and killing athletes, u know, stuff that TERRORISTS DO! And if we chose to ignore all that MaGdee, like you and your friends chose to, the 1990’s and the 2001-2003 attacks are proof enough for your ass. Do you know that at some point in the 1990’s more then 50% of Israelis wanted peace with the Palestinians? That number dwindled now, because they realized what has been the Arabs dirty little secret for the past 20 years: The Palestinians- and Arabs- are not really interested in peace with Israel. We don’t, not really. We want them gone from this region forever. It’s why we never really capitalized and made relations with the Israeli peace supporters in Israel, no matter how much they defended us. The Palestinians and their bombs don’t really differentiate between peace-loving Israelis and Palestinian–hating Israelis, they are all Jews and therefore should all die. How long did you think it would take the Israelis to realize that MaGdee? How long before they give up on peace and bring Sharon to power in order to defend their livelihood? Not to mention, what was the Peace offer that Palestinians were giving anyway? Land for peace? What’s that? “Give us the land and we won’t try to kill you”? That’s thug mentality MaGdee, and can only work if the Palestinians were more powerful then the Israelis, which they are not. But do you really wanna know what made me Pro-Israel MaGdee? You really do? It was the Taba bombings. I am taking it a little personally because I was there with my friends at Ras Shaitan, and I left half an hour before the bomb went off, and had to go back and get the rest of my friends who were hiding in a beach cabin afraid of terrorists coming to kill them. Can you imagine how scared they were MaGdee? Or how harrowing the destruction looked? Or even how the victims looked, whose only fault was being Israeli and on vacation? That shit happened on our land MaGdee, in Egypt and the guy that was head of that group and planed the attack was Palestinian. You see, after Sharon built his security wall, they no longer could come into Israel and blow themselves or in some cases convince 16 year old girls to do it. So instead they came and attacked them here, where they could. You know, I was against the Security wall before the bombings for mental associations with the Berlin wall. Now, I am angry that we don’t have a wall of our own between our borders and Gaza’s. I guess escaping a terrorist attack made me a little irrational. As for Sharon, well, I have to say I admire him, but I never said I liked him. You do realize that you can respect someone and not like them at the same time right? I respect him because he puts the interests of his people first, and because for 40 years as a man of war he never lost and now he is attempting to create a peace that can actually last more then a year or two. And I didn’t call him a man of peace MaGdee, that was Mubarak by the way. But I do recognize that he is capable of it. And as for the topic of Sharon’s ass, to tell you the truth I never really checked it out. You apparently did. I guess that says something about you now, doesn’t it my friend? As for supporting Bush, it may come off as a shocker to you, but traditionally egyptians have always supported the republican candidate, this year being the only exception. For the 1980, 1984, 1988 ,1992, 1996, and 2000 campaigns the arabs and egyptians in the USA have voted overwhelmingly republican and that sentiment was shared and echoed by the arabs all over the middle-east. Whether you publically admit it or not, you know you wanted Bush to win in the 2000 elections, cause you oh so feared a Jew in the white house. I know that cause everyone who talks and thinks like you thought the same way. And this year, the arabs voted for the democrats, not because they believed in the democrats ideas or beliefes, but because they did not like Bush. Pure and simple. Watch the 2008 elections my friend, and you will see that once he is out of office, they will retrun to voting republican once again. I guess that makes us all supporters of the most "right wing US government in history". Scary, huh? Ohh, and can you please support that statement next time, instead of just parrotting a line from Fahrenheit 9/11? I understand that you must have seen it like 5 times and have it memorized by now, but please do your own research and don't believe everything that Michael Moore says to be truth written in stone. That man, believe it or not, had an agenda and he told you everything you wanted to hear and took your money in retrun. They have a name for people like you my friend and its SUCKER! And as for the Leaders remark, yeah, I have to say that Bush is putting the fear of god in them. Check out Libya, who suddenly decided to pay reparations for the bombing of the plane thing and dismantled its nuclear program. And while you may have a point about Mubarak having a lot of cash in his pockets because of them, I have no idea what you are talking about when you refer to Saudi and Jordan leaders. Saudi leaders- the oil sheikhs- are getting paid off by the states now? Am I missing something? And as for Jordan, well, thanks for bringing up my favorite Arab state, you know, the one with the friendliest relationship with Israel and the US, and yet at the same time 70% of its population is Palestinian. Ever find that to be ironic MaGdee? I sure do! In conclusion, I am glad I provided you with a good laugh MaGdee, cause you sure as hell returned the favor. I will be kind of sad if you sod off and don’t show your face around here anymore with another post of yours. Nothing makes my day like moronic ramblings! Ohh, and by the way, I do know a couple of other tricks MaGdee, but i am saving them up for later. For now i am satisfied with exposing you for the idiot you are infront of yourself and your ilk, not to mention everybody else! Have a nice day!
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 1/03/2005 02:51:00 AM
48 Comments:
Hmmmm. I thought it was some other nearby part of the anatomy that was crushed. The swaggering braggarts kind of - ahem - leave "them" out there, exposed to danger, shall we say. The maggot has been caught in that posture many times before. Perhaps we can be thankful that at least he won't be able to reproduce.
Louise, You like?
Oh yes. Perhaps you could go to work on my favourite Canadian pinko/wacko leftie, who calls himself ken. He's not to be confused with any Ken who uses the customary capital letter at the beginning. Trouble is, he's already reproduced. However, his retro ideology could certainly be deflated with a few good pokes by your stinging prose.
One at a time Louise, one at a time!
Every dog has his day!
:)
Damn. Sandmonkey, remind me not to ever piss you off.
Bridget
Losefo,
Give her time my friend. Give her time.
Ohh yeah, and my name is not Sandy,that's just a girly nickname someone (i wonder who) inflicted on me.
Call me sam
BTW, why can't i access ur blog from your profile?
You know Sandmonkey, the name Sandy used to be quite a lot more common for men. It was considered a shortened version of Alexander, as is Alexander the Great fame. Hardly a girlie now, that fellow, was he. So, it's your choice, but I wouldn't be ashamed to wear it with pride. Except I would say that you have the propensity to conquer with ideas, rather than the rape, pillage and plunder model of your ancient namesake.
Sandmonkey,
Despite the applaudes from your decent friends above I will ruin your mood by my posting and let you know the you have ignored the main issue of Israel not having the right to exist on top of another country.
Where is that from your logic? How much do you admire Sabra and Shatila led by Sharon? The fact that some land was bought by some Jewish people doesn't give them the right to invade Palestine.
Palestinian didn't ran off please check history palestinians were forced to leave their lands. My grandfather who was a fine man and lived in peace in his country was hiding in a church for a year is a proof of it. His family was killed one by one infront of his eyes by the Jews.
Reading some news is one thing and living the Israeli aggression is another. Please check facts.
Lebanon, Egypt, Syria faced the Israeli aggression enforced by the British leaders. It was never the arabs who slaughtered the Jews it was HITLER. Why couldn't they remain in Germany or Russia?
Twosret:
*you have ignored the main issue of Israel not having the right to exist on top of another country.*
You have been misled!
Zionism is about the right of the Jews to Self-Government. That is the crux of the issue. It is not *on top of* anything else.
The British set aside a part of the Mandate territory for this purpose. All the Muslims had to do was to say that they accept the right of Jewish autonomy (self-rule) in the section allocated for that purpose. But the Muslims refused.
And there has been a lot of disinformation about this ever since.
And, by the way, Pakistan was created for Muslim Self-Rule. There are still Muslims living in India, but those Muslims who wish to live in an area which is governed only by Muslims can live in Pakistan.
Thanks for ruining my mood twosret, it’s very Palestinian of you. I’ve also noticed the swipe you took at my “friends”, but don’t worry, I don’t hold it against you. As for the main issue- as you put it- it’s really up for debate now isn’t it? Some people could argue that Israel was there first. Others could argue that Palestine with its borders as we all know is a mere British colonial invention, like Jordan and Kuwait. Then there are those like you that insist that Israel never existed and that this land is Palestine till this day. In pure historical context, that last argument doesn’t matter that much. Up until the mid 1950’s countries all over Africa and Asia were getting their independence or redrawing their borders. If one follows the argument that historical borders matter more then current ones ( your argument by the way), then we might as well annex Kuwait back to Iraq, Bosnia back to Serbia, Texas to Mexico and the USA to the native Americans. We would also be giving back Israel to the jews, since historically speaking they were there first. Anyway…
As for Sabra and Shatila, well, that just shows how historically uninformed you are my friend. The people who killed the residents of Sabra and Shatila were not the Israelis under Sharon, but the Christian Lebanese forces. Lebanon was going through this whole thing called the Lebanese civil war at the time. Maybe you heard of it?
As for the difference between being forced to leave their land and running away from aggression, well, that’s semantics really. The Israeli terrorist groups at the time were waging a war against the British to kick them out, which ended with the bombing of the King David Hotel. Where were the Palestinians? Where was their resistance to the aggressors? They had numerical advantage and home field advantage, what happened? Why did your grandfather hide in a church for a year? A whole year? The only thing that proves my friend is that your grandfather was too scared to do anything but hide. If he and others had shaken away their fear at the time and maybe fought along the Egyptian, Moroccan and Iraqi forces in the 1948 war we might not be having this discussion right now!
Listen man, I am sorry that this happened to you and your family, I really do. But that’s the history of the world. The history of the world isn’t people getting along. It’s you have better weapons then the other country, you take em over and kill them, and they in return do the same over time. It’s why when the Israelis took over Egyptian land after we got defeated in 1967 the Egyptians kept fighting them anyway. They didn’t wait for 40 years, they went into guerilla warfare mode the very next year. Palestine getting swallowed by Israel is not really anyone’s fault as much as it is the Palestinians of those days for not standing their ground and fighting back while Israel as we know it today was still in its formative years.
You are right however, when it comes to the fact that It was Hitler who slaughtered the Jews, no one doubts that. The reason why they didn’t stay in Germany or Russia however is because the former was still filled with Nazi anti-Jewish sentiment, and Russian, well, they were never that welcome in Russia anyway. In fact, that was the whole argument for the creation of Israel. A place where the Jews are not persecuted by anyone. For them, Israel means never having to go through another Holocaust again. It means survival for their kind, pure and simple. It’s why they always fought harder then any of the arabs facing them in 1948. While the arab armies were fighting a fight that wasn’t really theirs, The israeli militias were convinced that they were fighting for their future survival and existence. Had the Palestinians do something similar at the time, I say again, we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now!
Magdee,
I appreciate you returning the gesture on the account of you getting fired from work. Believe me my friend posting that response to you also hinderd my productivity at my job as well( yes,I do have one). Not being able to devote the time i was able to devote yesterday to you again today, you will pardon me if i took a a day or two to respond to you properly. It won't be as lengthy this time, I promise. I do have other things( more important, more intellectually stimulating) in my life to do besides arguing with you. you know?
But fret not my friend, i won't ignore you for too long. You will be getting your share of my special Sandmonkey lovin. I promise you that!It will probably be in an e-mail too, cause I really don't want to give you any free publicity through my blog.
One question though, cause i went through your posts quickly and i picked a couple of Nasserite/ socialist vibes. Are you a Nasserite by any chance?
Just curious is all!
Ohh, and one more thing I've noticed. You keep "LOL"-ing at your own jokes. What's up with that man?
Sandmonkey,
Can we apply your theory to native americans? The fact that Israel exist by force and blood and support from super power against Palestinians doesn't mean they have the right to exist.
So it is our fault that the Jews were kicked out of Europe and Russia? Why do you think Russia and Germany didn't like the Jews that much?
The case in Belgium courts were against Sharon not the Christian Lebanese.
I'm not sure what is your problem with Palestinians but my post wasn't rude in anyway to you or your friends. I don't think your posts sounds better with the use of foul language against anyone. May be it sounds cool to you to use the word "pussy" and "sucker" but I hope you keep in my mind that other readers might be offended.
It is up to you and it is your blog but I can see that you are so ready to pick a fight with anyone who disagree with you. Thanks for your feelings for my family. I'm female not male and I was named after one of your queens (rulers)
Twosret:
Everyone has a right to exist. The conflict is not about existing. It is about Self-Government.
Many groups and tribes have come and gone in the Middle East: the Moabites, the Edomites, the Nabateans, et al.
The PLO Arabs are going to follow those groups into the Dustbin of History and go defunct if they continue to reject Reality. Do you want that?
I am very pessimistic this week because I have the flu. So this week I think they are Doomed. I don't see any hope for their potential to adapt and change.
--button
The Native Americans were never some monolithic "all-peaceful" culture. There were many different tribes scattered all throughout the Americas.
Button and Anonymous,
Magdee did reply on all the points you are raising here
http://rosettastones.blogspot.com/ I think his reply is good enough.
T.
I did go and read it.
Keep Blogging, MaGdee!
--button
Too those who haven't got a clue about history outside of the little blackened window you peer out of, I write this post.
First, Sandmonkey, you did a pretty good attempt at swaying your evil blog twin to some reality with your history lesson. Honestly, until recently (and maybe still do) I have always been both pro-Israel and pro-palestinian. In fact, I have wanted Palestinians to have a real elected government and real democracy for a long time. A government who was more concerned about insuring that the people of the Palestinian territories prosper. Instead, what they got was (and is) a bunch of greedy, selfish bastards who would love to have this thing go on and on regardless of the damage to the Israelis or the Palestinians because, while it does, they live free and fat off the largesse of other Arab nations and the "aide" from countries including the US.
Arafats little "billions" squirled away in his private bank accounts are only the beginning. Everyone of those leaders are filthy stinking rich, running off to Europe and Switzerland, drinking their coffee and smoking cigars while they pat the Palestinians on the head and tell them to keep up the "resistance". Of course, as long as it exists, so will the free channels of money flowing into these people's hands.
If Palestinians actually wanted what they were demanding, they'd cut the crap and kick a few people out. but instead, they get fed the daily dose of martyrs' news and "10 easy steps to making your child a shahid".
Brilliant. You want to know who is committing "genocide" against the Palestinians? They need only look at the newspapers, the posters and the TV to see that their own "government" is urging them to kill themselves.
Historically, Sandmonkey's got the whole thing wrapped up in a nut shell, but, I will recap a few things I learned, even just recently, by reading every different kind of source including Pro-Palestinian websites.
1) Israelis had been slowly immigrating to the "Palestinian mandate" since 1820. It was in 1820 that the zionist movement came to existance. This was not a movement to take over "Palestine", but to have a homeland, even under the auspices of an "Arab" government in the area.
2) During the first Arab revolt against the Turks, Faisel, son of Hussein met with the "zionists" on two occassions and agreed to their immigration in the area because he thought that it would gain him support in his claim for Syria and his hopes to set up a government in Damascus. The "zionists" had agreed to submit to his rule should that occur.
3) it was not the "zionists" that voided that agreement, but the french who refused to give up Syria and Lebanon territories in order protect their colonial interests (yes, the same assholes that support the palestinians now couldn't have give a camel's ass about them when the whole thing was originally going down) and yes, protect the Christian enclave there. The rest you can blame on the British since they made one too many deals with one too many people and had to try and make the best of it, which they tried to do on multiple occasions.
4) Yes, almost all the original land being settled by the "zionists" was purchased with approval from the original owners who were absentee ARAB landholders who didn't give a camel's ass about what happened to the poor shephards and farmers that were leasing their land and who were subsequently displaced, so long as they made a buck. AND with immigration to the area, land prices were skyrocketing so it was an easy way to get rid of land and make a handsome profit that they would never have seen if they kept leasing it.
So far, do you get the picture, my historically challenged friends. This whole thing was about politics of European countries you now say are your friends and Money...for Arabs. You want to blame somebody, dig up the guys that didn't really care about the great Arab State or nationalism and sold it for a dollar.
Onward...
5) At least three times, the Arabs in the Palestinian Mandate were offered by the British to establish a parliamentary council that would be a precursor to a democratically elected government over the entire mandate when the British pulled out (which they were planning to do), but the Arabs refused because the council would necessitate including "jews" who only constituted appx 11% of the population at that time (hardly an overwhelming majority).
6) The Arabs in the area were too busy fighting amongst themselves to organize their own political party or united front (gee, sound familiar?) in order to offset the better organized "zionist" contingent even though, in 1936 when the second offer was made by the british, the Jewish population was still less than 20% of the population in the area?
When I read this (I didn't know this until recently), I wondered why they would do such a thing when all they had to do was take power in the council and then push through restrictions on further Jewish immigration to the area. Instead of focusing on the current, as they have ever done, they decided they wanted to turn back the clock over 100 years to the first moment Jews had immigrated there and try to throw them out. In essence, the Jewish contingent was only asking at that moment to be recognized as citizens and protected under the law, but the Arabs who did gain power, playing off the fears and anger of those Arabs displaced by the land being bought up by the Jews, determined that they would not offer any such citizenship or any such protection.
Why? Because they were being led by the infamous Al Hussayni who had decided to throw his lot in with the Nazis and decided that the extermination of the Jews was much better than even their miniscule existance in the Palestine mandate governed by Arabs.
So, who are we going to blame for the existance of Israel? Frankly, I don't even blame the Brits or the French, eventually, they were gone. If Palestinians could look themselves in the face in the mirror, they could admit that all of the leaders they've chosen to date have been jackasses and criminals grafting off their pain and just telling them what they want to hear. since the beginning.
Then, the British offer the Arabs the Two state solution. Except this state had a lot more land in it and would still be under the auspices of "one palestine" sharing finance and a greater government. But, no, couldn't do that either because the existance of Jews in Palestine could not be tolerated. Since they gave no guarantee of citizenship nor protection under the law and the Jews were beginning to be persecuted in both Europe and Palestine, a core group of "zionists" decided that they could no longer just count on being able to live somewhere and be protected but they must protect themselves.
It is at that point that I completely understand why they chose to seek independence before the British left since, as soon as they would have gone, the second holocaust would have occured, right there in "Palestine".
Short break in your history lesson. Do you know who first gave the area the name "Palestine"? Was it the Arabs? WAs it the Jews? Nope. The Roman occupiers over 2000 years ago named the area Palestine as a cockneyed hatchet job on the work "Philistine". So, the Arabs cannot even claim that the name "Palestinian" is their own. Just as much as the land was never theirs in the first place and was sold to the jews and nobody gave a damn until it was too late.
If not for the holocaust, the attacks by ARABS on the Jews during this time (with reprisals by the Jews of course), the refusal of the Arabs to allow even the few jews that were there citizenship and protection, the "zionists indepence movement" would not have become so popular and Israel would not exist today.
You want to blame somebody? Evil Zionists? Try blaming stupid Arab leaders who wanted something that could never exist again and threw it all away for an illusion of an "Arab state".
There you go, May 14, 1948, one day before the Brits finally withdrew, Israel declares independence for reasons of self defense. I don't blame them a bit.
As for Arafat, the thief and the baby killer, killer of his own people, he did fight Hussein in Jordan because his main goal in life was to be the ruler of something and he would have gladly taken Jordan and claimed it a Palestinian state as long as he became "president for life". Instead, he was the ruler of a little compound in Ramallah where he hoarded money like a miser and never even had the joy of spending his ill gotten gain.
As for your everyday Palestinian, I'm not sure if I feel disgust or pity because they will never have what they want, a free Palestine of any size or shape, as long as they continue to choose the leaders they have chosen for over 100 years of this whole fiasco.
Therefore, I blame them for their own condition. They have oppressedt themselves.
What I can't believe is the number of morons that haven't got a clue that the Arabs could have owned Palestine, peacefully, on at least four different occasions, not including the last little peace project with Arafat and Ehud Barak where, for the fifth and final time, the Palestinians were offered something that was never theirs in the first place and still refused to take it.
Now, as a Jewish friend of mine once said, that's chutzpah!
Kat,
You have said in your long Pro-Zionist post that you have read a lot of articles EVEN Pro-Palestinian. Give me a link or the name of the books that agrees with your post from the Palestinian point of view.
As for Arafat (Abu Amar) you can promote him as a thief as much as you want but his PEOPLE love him and don't think the same as you do. You will rarely enter a Palestinian house without the picture of Abu Amar in it. Arafat never enjoyed any money as you claim. He never put on a suit by a designer. He lived in refugee camps and escaped death planned for him by the Terrorists Israelis. He was a prisoner for two and half years by the Israeli Mafia of Sharon in a room with no window. What billions are you talking about?. Show us a copy of an official document to support your claims?. Stop repeating like a stupid parrot what you hear on the news.
Sharon is the father of corruption and his son is a proof of it. You claim only arabs are corrupt. Hello corporate America and Dick Cheney and Oil companies and BUSH senior and Junior.
The Jews who immigrated to Palestine in the 20's were the first to promote racisim, they surrounded themselves with walls similar to the one they are building now. Their role model Hitler taught them a lot. The same Jews in the 20's fought and killed and bombed the Brits not just the arabs. They were the early fathers of terrorism. The Jews who immigrated from Russia could never adapt and co-exist with arabs.
We faced horrible conditions under occupation of the Brits. We the arabs were invaded by most super power countries that sucked up our wealth and goodness. Oh God! how much does the western world owes us! Your bull shit propaganda promotes one thing that NO ONE is allowed to suffer more than holocaust Jews. The suffering of the Palestinians means nothing to the world.
The barbaric movement of the french and Brits in the past is followed by the Israelis. The fact that Palestinians agree to two states was a big move thanks to Arafat and it is Israel turn to make it happen and give half the land to the Palestinians and Jerusalem remain under international observation. The map of Israel doesn't stop by Palestine the map of Israel will expand to a lot of of other arab lands and it is public knowledge only for those who are willing to pay attention and read. This is not about religion or history this is about Invasion and aggression.
Until your house is demolished by Sharon and your kids are shot by Isreali soldiers and your grandmother is dragged in the streets of Jenin FOR ISREAL TO STEAL YOUR LAND I think you should keep your BIG MOUTH shut
and enjoy your freedom and be thankful to your creator that you are not a Palestinian.
So easy for people to sit at the comfort of their home to create history and minipulate it.
Kat,
You can bark like a stray Israeli dog on the internet with your false accusations and your OWN interpretation of the history and really believe yourself and try to convience others but one fact remains.
Israel is an occupier and an aggressor and you will never live peace until you work for peace and give the land back to the Palestinians.
You never read anything Palestinian and never wanted a state for us you are only ranting about Israel and we don't want need your pity or disgust we are already puking reading such posts.
If you can slaughter Jesus Christ you can slaughter anyone else!
Button,
Sorry for late reply. Didn't mean to ignore your post. All what we ask for now is equal land and Jerusalem to be under international observation. Free for all muslim and Christians and Jews to visit and practice their religious rights.
The ordinary people of Palestine and Israel wants to live in peace and agree with the same concept. They want equal lands and the right to live. It is the politicians who are the problem not the people.
I couldn't believe that my grandfather lived in Jerusalem all his life and the Fu*.... Israeli's will refuse to let him be burried in Jerusalem because they claim that the land is for their Fu*...kings only! We were told that FILTHY arabs are not to be burried with their kings. No arab-Israeli is allowed to be burried in Jerusalem even if they hold and Israeli passport.
As long as this Sharon El Kalb is in charge there is no peace.
I guess I can't blame Sandmonkey for using bad language this Kat shit got me going too.
As you say in Egypt sandmonkey "Basra"
Twosret,
Before you waste your time replying to idiots. Check their profile. A southern cow, pro-war, will Justify any war, motorbike is on her favorite list, has Jewish friend who gave her a poor history lesson, sexually frustrated, eeeeeee haaaaaaa is her logo, moron who post open letters to anyone in the blogsphere including Bin Laden and probably have no teeth.
Her Jewish friend let her free on a farm and she enjoys her MOOOOOOOOOO's everynow and then.
What kind of post do you expect?Cow and Bull Shit of course. I bet you she never left Missouri.
Cheers,
El-Maghraby
Dear Twosret,
I think I am gonna borrow a phrase from my “evil blogging twin” MaGdee to describe your response to Kat: she “must’ve hit a nerve or something”! Anyway..
In response to your post about the war crimes case in the Belgium courts in regards to Sabra and Shatila, well, u r right that it was against Sharon and not the christian lebanese. But , ehh, it was the christian lebanese who did kill the people at Sabra and Shatila and not Sharon, which is why the case was dropped. As Mannheim Beguine commented at the time “ Gyom kills gyom and they blame the jews”. Sharon was the leader of the occupying Israeli force in that area, which is why some people hold him responsible for “not stopping” the Sabra and Shatila slaughter by the- can you say it after me?- The Christian Lebanese militia! Look it up sweetie, and you might just find out that I am right!
As for Arafat being the great self-less monadel that he is, well, it seems that you are set in your way in your view for him and nothing will change that. But in case you are wondering about what billions we- me and Kat- are talking about, well, I suggest you ask Soha Arafat. It was all over the news in egypt sweetie, how the PA’s money was all in Arafat’s name and he had it all stashed in foreign banks u know, under the stewardship of Soha, the mother of his daughter Zahwa. Soha herself lived those 3 last years-that arafat spent locked in a room- living the lavish life in Paris with your people’s money. You know the same money she refuses to give back? Why do you think they had the official Arafat funeral in cairo and not in ramallah? Cause Soha was too afraid to step foot in Palestine cause the PA people would have torn her apart for that money. She instead went to her palace in Tunisia- yes she has one there- and then went back to france, probably to continue spending your people’s money!
As for the two state soloution- ma kan men elawel! The fact that he agreed to it had nothing to do with anything twosret. What real choice did he have but agree? Not to mention, when did he agree? In the 1990’s? Sadat could’ve given him that during the camp David negotiations but he refused and called Sadat a traitor for it. How come you don’t blame him for that? And you are right, it is the politicians who are the problem, not the people. Arafat was a problem, the same way Netanyahu was a problem. Arafat undermined Abu Mazen and ahmed Qurei, cause he was afraid of them taking over power from him. He likes being in charge Twosret, even though he knew that sharon and Bush wouldn’t negotiate with him due to his really bad track record of keeping his promises and his known opportunistic scheming. You know, like his support for Saddam Hussein during his invasion of Kuwait and attempted invasion of Saudi? Remember that? Abu Mazen just apologized to the Kuwaitis about that! It was all over the news. But then again, u don’t really believe the news as u said!
Look. I know that I can put all the facts concerning Arafat in front of you and it wouldn’t matter, you would never admit to the flaws of the man, cause over the years he became a symbol of the Palestinian struggle. But the truth is he failed you twosret and he failed all his people. I am sorry if you can’t handle that, but it’s the truth!
And now as for your comment about jesus christ. It may shock you, but jesus…he was a jew. He really was. He was a born into the jewish tribes by a jewish mother.
And it’s ok if you do use bad langauge occasionaly Twosret, since u know, we are all adults here. But please not that Kat-nin her argument- supported all of her points historically and eloquently, while you used vague references of the likes of “You claim only Arabs are corrupt. Hello corporate America and Dick Cheney and Oil companies and BUSH senior and Junior”. That is not an argument Twosret. Are you saying all of corporate America is corrupt? Or is it all oil companies? What proof do u have for that? And as for Sharon and his son, at least they can actually accuse him and take him to court for it in Israel. Name one arab state in which it’s possible to do that to the leader and I will send you a cookie! I promise!
As for El maghraby,
So if she is from Missouri she is a southern cow huh? Missouri is in the Midwest you idiot! And if you do read her posts you would know that she was a bleeding heart democrat in her youth, when she lived in Chicago. Chicago- which is a big city if you didn’t know- is in Illinois by the way, and yeah that’s a different state. And what do u mean by pointing that motorbike is on her favorite interests? Is motor biking a southern thing all of a sudden? Or maybe it’s a hick thing now? Maybe I missed a memo or something.
And by the way, it is kinda rude to call her a cow, no matter how much you may disagree with her or her opinion. It makes you look sexist, ignorant and stupid. I would recommend that you argue against the points that she raises instead of just calling it “Cow and Bull Shit of course”, cause it makes you look like the moron! Just saying!
Sandmonkey,
I never said Arafat is the Perfect leader. I'm opposing Kat sugar coated bitterness towars Palestinians. So Arafat has done nothing but steal money for the Palestinians? is that it! she never mentioned one positive thing to support her Phony claims of the Palestinians state.
You can feed on rumors but I need FACTS I have asked for a proof of him stealing and since you can't come up with a court ruling or confirmed evidence then I have the right to dispute any argument here. Arafat as per 90%of the palestinians not just me is not a Bastard or a criminal he is their leader and a father like image and if you claim democracy the PEOPLE of Palestine have spoken in his life and his death. It is up to US to chose our leaders and trust them not the Egyptians or the Americans.
As per your history of Sabra and Shatila what started civil war in Lebanon? when did that happen? who supported the christian lebanese? how was Lebanon as a country before the Israeli invasion? Have we heard in any book of history about civial war before the 80's? The paris of the east Lebanon all of a sudden the Christians woke up in Lebanon and decided to massacre their muslim neighbors? WHY DID ISRAEL INVADE LEBANON IN THE FIRST PLACE?
We have settled for two state not because we want to but becuase we were FORCED by super powers. It amazes me that someone like you who were invaded by the British and your country was in slavery for so long by the Brits would not understand the concept. I can't believe that people think we are lazy ASS blaming the Brits and French for our misery. YES!! How many years of slavery and poverty does it take for us to suffer and reach where we are now? in your case the romans, french, english and all the in-between. If the Americans wanted to establish a state for them why they didn't offer their own lands? they only offer OUR lands to others this is what I call Bastards!
The enlgish should be doomed for dividing lands that doesn't even belong to them those are the BASTARDS. You occupy a country drain it's resources, slave their youth and prevent them from education and then come back and accuse them of corruption. They build their empire and wealth based on their invasion of half of the world.
This is what I call Audcity! We are not the first to dislike the Jews Germans didn't, Russians didn't but we are the only HATERS of the Jews now. Why does people hate them through out the history? because everyone is a maniac and they are innocent?
You can be pro-Israel and Americans as much as you want but when it comes to my stolen land I accept no less than half of the land and Jerusalem to be under international observation until then there will be no peace in the middle east.
Can't wait to see Egypt occupied by Israel as by the map of the so called Israeli map they are building roads they are going for it. The bastards claim the Pyramids belongs to them, Humus is their food....man you have no idea.
Few more points to add:-
You claim your country is corrupt and against your system but yet you believe your media about Suha Arafat.
Suha Arafat is a daughter of a very wealthy family and she didn't need the money of the Palestinians. Lavish life is nothing new. Suha was never a favor to Palestinians because she was a Christian and she didn't live in the Compound with him. Don't tell me it is so strange for a husband and a father to send away his family to live in Paris for their safety when the criminal Sharon and his people announce daily their desir to kill him. Wouldn't your father do the same thing?. Don't also tell me that you can't understand the public resentment to Suha as a Christian living in Paris added the resentment. Hanan Shaarawi is on the same boat. I think Dr. Shaarawi is the best leader for the Palestinians but she will never win elections. Same concept different women.
As for the funeral held in Egypt what is the real reason for that Sandmonkey? Is it all because of Suha?
As for Sadat. Sadat himself was mislead by the Israelis he announced it and even it is mentioned in his wife's book and movie. The Americans and Israeli's betrayed him in regards of Palestine.
As for Jesus Christ he WAS born as a Jew but he is NOT a Jew as a Christian is he? The Jews wanted to kill him at any cost. Mary is the same she was born as a Jew but she is not a Jew afterwards. Don't put words on my mouth that all jews are bad I never said that. They slaughtered him didn't they? or you have another truth you want to post?
I might not be an eloquent writer as you claim but at least I'm a Palestinian who speaks about my country and my history not a moron living in the United States listening to a Jewish version of history and repeating it like a dumb parrot. I'm sorry that it is hard for you to love Mubarak but guess what we love Abu Amar to death whether you like it or not.
Now I am not hungry for a cookie but you can send me some Kenafa I will appreciate it. I don't hold grudges that easily. Your pro-Israel opinions is not going to change the direction of my country it will only support the aggressor.
"This is what I call Audcity! We are not the first to dislike the Jews Germans didn't, Russians didn't but we are the only HATERS of the Jews now. Why does people hate them through out the history? because everyone is a maniac and they are innocent?"
"Not the first to dislike the Jews" So killing them to this day is all is alright by you? nazi Germans and Russians hated everyone but themselves. They'd have killed ANYONE who was against them-Jews happen to make good targets for them and as they were busy with day to day life of building up family and communities , not destroying them. Trust me the world is now really seeing you for what you and that stinkhhole for a human, arafat are all about! Are you really that blind? Can't you see what he has has done?
Got news for you, this previous supporter of Palestine now thinks along the lines of Sandmonkey and Kat. Your way of thinking drove me away from your supposed 'true cause'. At that was arafat's doing, thank you very much.
Seems your attitude of hating Jews is part of the real problem, and it has spread like a cancer to your hearts, not that you'd have noticed. Hell you let arafat steal and marginalise Palestinians into the dirt, while he kept you busy with Jew hating propaganda programs. What fools, led by the nose like donkeys!
Better to hold onto hate and bitterness than, realize we're in a currently diverse and changing world. Get with it! You and HATERS like you, will be left behind. You may have fooled many all along, but now there's a different attitude growing, it's called: 'Being fed up with winey murdering Palestinians' crying at how unjust the world has treated them, while they send in their own KIDS to be suicide bombs! Way to go, keep doing nothinge towards a peace agreement! Pathetic.
Elia
<>
Mooooo, from the midwest. Apparently a cow on a motorcycle can even say something that pisses people off. Thank you Sandmonkey for your defense. I take little offense from people that can't look themselves in the mirror without wondering if the bags under their eyes were caused by the evil Americans or those nasty joooooz.
Here's the deal, two and mag...
To answer Two, I just love the part where I mention the corruption of the PA, as sandmonkey points out, completely legitimate and proven since Soha nor Arafat were rich on their own behalf and only became so after their attachment to PA and Soha to Arafat, it rather blindingly leads to the conclusion that, somehwhere there's corruption, and what do I get as a reply: You think only Arabs are corrupt.
What kind of argument is that? Did I say only Arabs are corrupt? Our discussion centers on the problems with the Palestinians and why they are poverty stricken and why they have no democratic government and why they have no state of their own. How does corruption of other nationals, oil companies, other politicians, sharon, etc, etc, etc, figure into the corruption of the PA and Arafat in particular? Are they all in a club? Corrupted Anonymous? Do they have "corrupt trading cards" like a pokemon deck and they all trade to see who can be the most powerful corrupt?
That's called a "strawman argument" where you throw up some bullshit (speaking of which) to hide behind instead of addressing the main point, which is the PA is corrupt.
Let's be clear, by the way, about what Arafat agreed to. He agreed to a two state solution, but with certain caveats that were impossible to meet. The first of which is the "right to return". Do either of you understand the number of people that would entail? Appx 6 mil. Disregarding the "Jewish state" being inundated with Arabs, which I would have no problem with as long as the rule of law and equal protection remained in place (an impossibility as the stated Palestinian cause is to wipe Israel and jews from the map), the simple mathematics of the available land and resources vs. the number of people that would need to be absorbed, is quite utterly impossible.
Do you know why he demanded that impossible caveat? Arafat, if nothing else, was pretty damned slick. by agreeing and then demanding something he knew could never happen, even logistically, he insured that he pleased the Europeans and the rest of the world that wanted the Palestinians to accept a two state solution AND kept his base of people happy by showing that the Israelis were stingy bastards after all and it was okay to keep killing them and demanding the total destruction of Israel.
It's called double speak or having your cake and eating it too. It was an illusion to make all of you apologizers for the grand master of terror fool yourselves into thinking that it wasn't Arafat or the Palestinians that were the problem, but those dastardly Israelis once again.
You all are actually a laugh a minute. You are just as delusional about the situation as those living there. Do you really think in this lifetime or the next, that the Israelis are going to just give up their country (because that's what it is now, it's not Palestine anymore) or be wiped from the face of this earth by a mystical, heroic Arab army?
All that Palestine is today is a place for terrorists to train, for fanatical religious sects to set up shop and have an infinite source of income and followers as they deal in the trade of martyrdom, it's a place for those that can't make it in the world to commit suicide and pretend it was for the greater cause while some charity pays their family for their son or daughter's death so maybe they can get out of the grinding poverty imposed on them by their corrupt leaders.
Talk about evil capitalism. What is more "evil capitalist" than selling your son or daughter's soul for 10k a pop? Now there's a niche market.
Yeah, I said that on my blog and you better believe that it's an industry unlike any industry ever created before, complete with action figures, toys, posters, T-shirts, head bands (let's not forget the head bands), art, movies and pop music to immortalize it (and sell thousands of CDs for a profit), speakers to speak about it and get paid, experts to offer consultation for a fee, employs hundreds, if not thousands of people, and, let's not forget, groupies like you two.
Commercialized martyrdom. Who would have thunk it?
Reminds me of those get rich quick programs you see on TV late at night:
"You, too, could be an instant millionaire. All you have to do is buy our complete package on how to set up a terrorist organization. Instructions include: selecting a catchy name, creating your logo, choosing the right cause to represent, obtaining charitable donations and other capital from sympathetic morons and how to network with other terrorist organizations.
If you act now, we'll throw in our "merchandizing and distribution" package for a one time fee of $900 where we will show you how to package your cause, create merchandise and distribute it to the losers of this world (television and other media packages are sold separately).
Just call this number: 1800-THE-BOMB and we'll send you our free sample on how to pick your first martyr. (bomb making materials not included; one per customer).
That's right, within weeks you can be the head of your own multi-million dollar terrorist organization to skim millions off of unsuspecting dupes while getting others to do the dirty work for you.
Again, call 1 800 THE BOMB to order your terrorist kit. (All sales are final)"
That's why it will never go away, folks. It's a money making industry and your "heroes" aren't going to give it up, not for a piece of land nor a peace. How's that make you feel? Call me a "warmongerer"? What the hell does that make you? This is your version of the "military industrial complex" and you're so damned blind you don't even see it.
How ironic is that? The warmongerers calling me a warmongerer. Laughing my ass off right now.
I forgot to add the part where Arafat's father died in the service of Nazi sympathizer Al Hussayni, who of course, supported the "Final Solution" in the Middle East and helped SS men escape to Egypt (sorry, sandmonkey, but it's true) where they established clandestine cells and taught al Hussayni everything he didn't know yet about making bombs and killing Jews.
So, I always find those comments about the Jewish "Nazis" to be so damned hysterical. Particularly when I see pictures like this one of the Palestinian Youth Group meeting at a local hotel:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050105/ids_photos_wl/r2190345954.jpg
Please note the distinctive raised right hand, arm straight out, fingers together, palm facing whoever it is the are giving the "Zieg Heil" salute to. couple that with "all jews must die" and you've got...drum roll please...NAZIS.
What I found most amusing about the picture was the teenager in the middle, with the big "T" on the left breast of his shirt and the his kafiyah draped around his shoulders like a cape. Who is he supposed to be, "Super Terrorist"? I guess everyone has got to have their heroes, heh?
Maghdee..is that you under that mask?
Another youth, bound to have his once promising life cut short by brainwashing in the cult of death. Who shall I cry for Magpie and Two shorts? The boy who will be lucky to live past 20? Or, the 10 or so people he is going to kill someday when he becomes a full fledged super martyr? His parents who will throw a lovely little memorial party with candy and proudly show off the pictures of their dead son, then later, happily count the money they have made for their grand sacrifice?
for the boy I have pity. for those he will someday kill, I reserve my sympathy. For those that are telling him about the joys of martyrdom as they sit back in their rooms, dining on fine foods, smoking their cigarettes and counting the money they will get from presenting yet another fool for the circus, hell is too good for them.
For you two groupies, I'm afraid I feel nothing but disgust since you might as well be standing there with him, showing him how to strap on the vest, pointing out a choice target and telling him where to stand in order get the best "bang for his buck".
And you have the audacity to call me a warmongerer? At least I have the honesty to admit to what I support, to myself and to the world. All the while, I am expecting you two to tell me what a shame it is that Palestinian youth blow themselves up, how you really don't support it, BUT he was driven to it by the evil Jews and since they took his land (100 year before he was born) it is justified.(which you've been saying on GM and here so I don't think I'm too far from the truth).
In which case, I call you cowards. You can't even face yourselves much less admit to supporting the eventual death of this boy and his future victims.
You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting.
Kat,
Only stupid people like you don't read carefully and get too excited to reply in a cheap ironic tone that makes you sound like an idiot for real ( Poor cow Al-Maghraby why would you hurt the cow's feelings).
1- Quote me where did I say "you think only arabs are corrupt". Don't put words on my mouth go back to my post before you open your big stupid mouth. Here is what I asked you and you never answered:-
-You started you pro-zionist post by saying that you have read both sides of the story and then posted your garbage Jewish version of history. I have asked you clearly for refrences of where you read in Palestinian articles or books as you claim anything that supports your version of history that you posted in this site.
-A proof of Arafat and Suha stealing the Palestinian money as you claim. What are your resources other than sandmonkey validation?
When you say "as sandmonkey points out, completely legitimate and proven since Soha nor Arafat were rich on their own behalf and only became so after their attachment to PA"
So you and sandmonkey makes Arafat and Suha thieves and it is completely legitimate and proven what a joke!. FYI Suha comes from a very rich family (I said it before but you are too blind to read). Raised a Catholic in Ramallah and Nablus, Suha left to study at the Sorbonne in Paris. Her father was a banker and her mother is a high-profile Palestinian journalist, Reemonda Tawil. Wealth is not new to Suha.
Now since you brought up the subject. Your American administration back in the 40's supported the Israeli's to settle and take our land so the rest of your argument is nonsense because history says that America always supported Israel by weapons in the past 50 years and still support Israel today. Poverty in Palestine wasn't because of Arafat you idiot it was because of OCCUPATION of the Brits and the Israelis. What a moron you are!
3- You said "which I would have no problem with as long as the rule of law and equal protection remained in place"
- Who are YOU? an American Missouri resident feeling entitled to tell Arafat or America or Israel of what SHOULD happen? You are nothing but a full supporter of an aggressor and an occupier of someone else land. Why don't you offer some of the American lands to the Israeli you piece of shit instead of sitting in Missouri asking US the palestinians to not have the right to return.
4- You said "Do you really think in this lifetime or the next, that the Israelis are going to just give up their country (because that's what it is now, it's not Palestine anymore) or be wiped from the face of this earth by a mystical, heroic Arab army? "
-Where in my post did I say that? I said equal land and Jerusalem under international observation. Let the fat Ass figure instead of eating worth of half the palestinian children food. This is not our fault.
5- You claim Palestinians are terrorist a typical attempt of your big fat Ass Mafia style Sharon riding on the tail of terrorism. The fight of Palestinians is about LAND not religion every nation fought for it's land Patrick Henry 1775 "give me liberty or give me death" or are you up for another round of slavery in the middle east becasue the african americans were not enough?
6- The rest of your post is a vicious, bitter, Zionist accusation that stems from a person who NEVER hoped for peace or two states.
Here is some HISTORY Documented of the ISRAELI TERRORISM for you to read.
After the state of Israel was established, the Lehi, displeased with what it considered the too pro-Arab views of the Swedish UN-appointed mediator for Palestine, assassinated him; on September 17, 1948, Count Folke Bernadotte-who, as a neutral diplomat in World War II, had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps-was shot and killed by Lehi assassins, along with French colonel Andre Serot, the senior UN military observer, whose wife's life had been saved by Bernadotte.
The Bernadotte assassination was so outrageous that the nascent government of David Ben-Gurion had little problem disbanding the Lehi (though none of the assassins were ever brought to justice). Yet, despite this history of terror, the Israeli Ministry of Defense underwrites museums commemorating the Stern Gang and the Irgun- which, under Menachem Begin, bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel in 1946, leaving 90 dead and 45 wounded (with 15 Jews among the casualties). Like Lehi, it wasn't until 1948 that the Irgun was forced out of existence, after its arms-transport ship, the Altalena, was blown up by the provisional Israeli government-a point analysts like Ibish say bears remembering.
"There are streets named after the assassins of Moyne and Bernadotte. They are historical figures not disavowed by the rhetoric of the state of Israel, nor is there any reflection on the fact that two terrorist leaders later became distinguished leaders of the republic," Ibish says. "And now people are saying that Arafat must have his Altalena." Ibish adds that Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, "never moved against the Irgun and the Stern Gang until after the state was established and secured, which is definitely not true in the case of the Palestinian Authority. Essentially, the Israelis are asking the Palestinians to do something they themselves refused to do." ___
Now you can laugh at your own ASS as much as you want.
Kat,
Only stupid people like you don't read carefully and get too excited to reply in a cheap ironic tone that makes you sound like an idiot for real ( Poor cow Al-Maghraby why would you hurt the cow's feelings).
1- Quote me where did I say "you think only arabs are corrupt". Don't put words on my mouth go back to my post before you open your big stupid mouth. Here is what I asked you and you never answered:-
-You started you pro-zionist post by saying that you have read both sides of the story and then posted your garbage Jewish version of history. I have asked you clearly for refrences of where you read in Palestinian articles or books as you claim anything that supports your version of history that you posted in this site.
-A proof of Arafat and Suha stealing the Palestinian money as you claim. What are your resources other than sandmonkey validation?
When you say "as sandmonkey points out, completely legitimate and proven since Soha nor Arafat were rich on their own behalf and only became so after their attachment to PA"
So you and sandmonkey makes Arafat and Suha thieves and it is completely legitimate and proven what a joke!. FYI Suha comes from a very rich family (I said it before but you are too blind to read). Raised a Catholic in Ramallah and Nablus, Suha left to study at the Sorbonne in Paris. Her father was a banker and her mother is a high-profile Palestinian journalist, Reemonda Tawil. Wealth is not new to Suha.
Now since you brought up the subject. Your American administration back in the 40's supported the Israeli's to settle and take our land so the rest of your argument is nonsense because history says that America always supported Israel by weapons in the past 50 years and still support Israel today. Poverty in Palestine wasn't because of Arafat you idiot it was because of OCCUPATION of the Brits and the Israelis. What a moron you are!
3- You said "which I would have no problem with as long as the rule of law and equal protection remained in place"
- Who are YOU? an American Missouri resident feeling entitled to tell Arafat or America or Israel of what SHOULD happen? You are nothing but a full supporter of an aggressor and an occupier of someone else land. Why don't you offer some of the American lands to the Israeli you piece of shit instead of sitting in Missouri asking US the palestinians to not have the right to return.
4- You said "Do you really think in this lifetime or the next, that the Israelis are going to just give up their country (because that's what it is now, it's not Palestine anymore) or be wiped from the face of this earth by a mystical, heroic Arab army? "
-Where in my post did I say that? I said equal land and Jerusalem under international observation. Let the fat Ass figure instead of eating worth of half the palestinian children food. This is not our fault.
5- You claim Palestinians are terrorist a typical attempt of your big fat Ass Mafia style Sharon riding on the tail of terrorism. The fight of Palestinians is about LAND not religion every nation fought for it's land Patrick Henry 1775 "give me liberty or give me death" or are you up for another round of slavery in the middle east becasue the african americans were not enough?
6- The rest of your post is a vicious, bitter, Zionist accusation that stems from a person who NEVER hoped for peace or two states.
Here is some HISTORY Documented of the ISRAELI TERRORISM for you to read.
After the state of Israel was established, the Lehi, displeased with what it considered the too pro-Arab views of the Swedish UN-appointed mediator for Palestine, assassinated him; on September 17, 1948, Count Folke Bernadotte-who, as a neutral diplomat in World War II, had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps-was shot and killed by Lehi assassins, along with French colonel Andre Serot, the senior UN military observer, whose wife's life had been saved by Bernadotte.
The Bernadotte assassination was so outrageous that the nascent government of David Ben-Gurion had little problem disbanding the Lehi (though none of the assassins were ever brought to justice). Yet, despite this history of terror, the Israeli Ministry of Defense underwrites museums commemorating the Stern Gang and the Irgun- which, under Menachem Begin, bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel in 1946, leaving 90 dead and 45 wounded (with 15 Jews among the casualties). Like Lehi, it wasn't until 1948 that the Irgun was forced out of existence, after its arms-transport ship, the Altalena, was blown up by the provisional Israeli government-a point analysts like Ibish say bears remembering.
"There are streets named after the assassins of Moyne and Bernadotte. They are historical figures not disavowed by the rhetoric of the state of Israel, nor is there any reflection on the fact that two terrorist leaders later became distinguished leaders of the republic," Ibish says. "And now people are saying that Arafat must have his Altalena." Ibish adds that Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, "never moved against the Irgun and the Stern Gang until after the state was established and secured, which is definitely not true in the case of the Palestinian Authority. Essentially, the Israelis are asking the Palestinians to do something they themselves refused to do." ___
Now you can laugh at your own ASS as much as you want.
Elia,
I wish my new computer supports Hebrew characters but I will work on it and reply in Hebrew next time(sencere not haterd) I have Jewish friends and we correspond always in Hebrew. If I assumed wrong that you are Jewish then I take it back.
My comment was meant to say the Jews must be doing something WRONG! and here is what I said too "The ordinary people of Palestine and Israel wants to live in peace and agree with the same concept. They want equal lands and the right to live. It is the politicians who are the problem not the people "
I'm angry at the Israeli's who are in power and at the politicians who become an obstacle for peace. I never supported or support Hitler he is a horrible criminal and what he have done will not be forgiven by many including me. I also don't forgive the Israeli aggression easily as 6 of my family members who were 100% peaceful people were murdered by Israeli soldiers.
Sorry I can't hug and kiss the Israeli soldiers at this point and love them may be in the future God will give us some forgiveness for what we have done to each other but for now my land comes first.
Kat,
You are a typical Bitch that deserves no reply from me. I'm not as stupid as you are to bring links and accuse others of being terrorists.
Your SOB Jewish friend brainwashed you enough and I think you need help mentally because you create so many stories from your sick mind to prove that people who oppose you are terrorist.
Typical right wing brainwashed mentality. So in brief let out your frustration on anyone else but me.
I have better things in life to do than reply to your craziness.
Twosret,
You mention that a solution to the Israeli-Arab problem is the two state solution (half the land and a Free City of Jerusalem). This sounds like a decent compromise to me (were I an arbitrator that tried not to side with anyone) but there is a big problem. If there were a country of Palestine, who then could they blame their problems on? Palestine would have no oil, no infrastructure... heavily impoverished... and little hope of the foreign investment which that fictitious country would so desparately need.
You would have a situation where the hard-liners who just want the Jews gone from the Middle East would continue to suicide murder Israelis. Israel would retaliate. Palestine would be too weak to formally declare war on Israel and would not likely crack down on their own internal terrorism sources.
It reminds me of the treatment of Germany after WW1. The US, which hadn't really suffered much in the War, forced on the Allies a settlement with Germany that left Germany too weak to keep fighting, but too strong to delve into the introspection needed to understand how wrong they were to allow the first war to occur. Since Germany had not hit rock bottom, the country was not forced to look at the world in a realistic way and soon returned to their blame someone else (the Jews) mentality and ramp back into militarism. The result was WW2. It was only after total devastation and long occupation in post war WW2 that militarism in Germany was removed and a successful country established. So my concern would be, can a Paletine that hasn't been purged of its militarism ever really accept the concept of peaceful co-existance with Israel?
From reading your posts it sounds like you would accept the two state solution, but how would you propose to stop terrorists against Israel from continuing to operate out of Palestine? Please don't say that the terrorists will stop when the Jews stop doing "x" or "y". I'm thinking something more direct like, say a Palestinian government that has in their constitution a prohibition against military force or terrorism, similar to the Post WW2 Japan constitution. That would be a possible solution, as taking the Gandhi type high ground stance would certainly be met with a lot of approval from the left leaners of the world.
Each side can blame each other and its fun and all but its sort of like arguing religion in that nobody really expects to convert the other. I've read about the problems over and over again... so what is a good solution? We know what the US solution was to the defeated native population, which was to plunk them all down on reservations. Not the greatest solution and yet, the "American Indian" reservations exist to this day with no political impetus to abolish them (what with the casino money coming in and all). What is our 21st century enlightened solution?
Dear Bronson,
I will be back with a reply. I have a very important test to take.
Thanks,
Twosret
Moooo from the midwest.
Two shorts...Thanks for the laugh. You don't want to reply to my craziness and I must give you proof of Arafat's corruption?
Why should I waste my time? You prefer to live with your illusion of an illustrious leader who only had the Palestinians' welfare at heart. You won't believe anything I write or direct you to, but, I'll be happy to give them to you anyway. Of course, it is probably all given to me by those dastardly Jews since, you know, they've infiltrated the every nook and cranny of government, publishing houses and banks of the United States (according to your fantasy world).
Try this one, CBS, left leaning and Palestinian supporting media in the US:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml
Excerpts from Nov 3, before Arafat died:
Yasser Arafat diverted nearly $1 billion in public funds to insure his political survival, but a lot more is unaccounted for.
Jim Prince and a team of American accountants - hired by Arafat's own finance ministry - are combing through Arafat's books. Given what they've already uncovered, Arafat may be rethinking the decision.(...)
So far, Prince's team has determined that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion -- with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the U.S. and the Cayman Islands.
Although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And, Prince says, none of these dealings were made public.
That's what happened with the portfolio money, which is now under the control of Salam Fayyad, a former World Bank official who Arafat was forced to appoint finance minister last year after crowds began protesting his corrupt regime.
According to Fayyad, "There is corruption out there. There is abuse. There is impropriety, and that's what had to be fixed."
Statements like that have earned Fayyad, a bookish technocrat who spent 20 years in the U.S., a reputation for courage - which was enhanced when he immediately posted the details of Arafat's secret portfolio on the Internet.
http://www.pa-inv-fund.com/articles2.asp
(i'll post more of that later)
"Arafat for years would cry poor, saying, 'I can't pay the salaries, we're gonna have a disaster here, the Palestinian economy is going to collapse,'" says Indyk. "And we would all mouth those words: 'The Palestinian economy is going to collapse if we don't do something about this.' But at the same time, he's accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars."
The stockpile went well beyond the portfolio. Arafat accumulated another $1 billion with the help of -- of all people -- the Israelis. Under the Oslo Accords, it was agreed that Israel would collect sales taxes on goods purchased by Palestinians and transfer those funds to the Palestinian treasury. But instead, Indyk says, "that money is transferred to Yasser Arafat to, amongst other places, bank accounts which he maintains off-line in Israel."
Until three years ago, Israel put the tax revenues into Arafat's account at Bank Leumi in downtown Tel Aviv, no questions asked. But why?
According to Indyk, "The Israelis came to us and said, basically, 'Arafat's job is to clean up Gaza. It's going to be a difficult job. He needs walking-around money,' because the assumption was that he would use it to get control of all of these terrorists who'd been operating in these areas for decades."
Like a Chicago ward boss, he still doles out oodles of money; Fayyad says he pays his security forces alone $20 million a month, all of it in cash.
Did he steal from his own people?
"He defines himself as being the embodiment of the Palestinian people," Ross answers. "So what's good for him is good for them. Did they benefit? The answer is no. Did they lose? The answer is yes."
Palestinians certainly paid dearly for something else Fayyad uncovered: a system of monopolies in commodities -- like flour and cement -- that Arafat handed out to his cronies, who then turned around and fleeced the public.
Fayyad says it could accurately be seen as gouging his own people. "And especially in Gaza which is poorer, which is something that is totally unacceptable and immoral, actually."
Of all the monopolies, none was as lucrative or as corrupt as the General Petroleum Corporation, the one for gasoline. The corporation took the fuel it purchased from an Israeli company and watered it down with kerosene, not only defrauding the Palestinian drivers, but wrecking their car engines.
Fayyad says the Petroleum Corporation charged exorbitant prices, and Arafat got a hefty kickback. "To the president, I can tell you, if there was not money in the treasury, he went to the Petroleum Corporation."
When Fayyad dismantled the corporation, the man who had run it fled to California. Ever since, with the monopoly broken up, Palestinian drivers have paid 20 percent less for gas and 80 percent less for diesel fuel. Gas stations now advertise 100 percent pure products.
Mohammed Rachid, Arafat's economic adviser who set up his tangled web of investments and monopolies, says he's cooperating with Fayyad's investigators. Rachid left the Palestinian territories about a year ago under a cloud. He asked CBS News not to reveal where we met him for his first television interview.
"I'm proud of what I did till now," Rachid says. "I think I showed a good performance."
He's referring to the investment portfolio he managed for Arafat. He also opened that account at the Leumi Bank in Tel Aviv. According to a recent report by the International Monetary Fund, that secret account was: "Under the control of President Arafat and his financial adviser Mohammed Rachid" -- and no one else.
"If we are having a secret account, we should have it in Israel? You think this is logical?" Rachid asks.
But that's what the Israelis, and the people working for Fayyad, say it was.
Rachid says that "transfers to Leumi Bank account never stayed. It was receiving the revenues and transferring the revenues to the Palestinian Authority's account in the Arab bank in Gaza."
He's saying the Leumi money was sent to the Palestinian Authority. But, in fact, much of it was sent to Switzerland, to the prestigious Lombard Odier Bank, for yet another secret investment account that held over $300 million. In a letter obtained by CBS News, Rachid tells the bank that the funds will come from Palestinian "taxes" and "customs revenues."
"It was all under the name of the Palestinian authorities," Rachid says. Doesn't he mean Arafat? "No, Palestinian Authorities, Palestinian Authorities."
Actually, it was under a code name, "Ledbury" -- not the Palestinian Authority -- and Minister Fayyad says that this pot of money, too, was available only to Arafat. The Swiss account was closed out in 2001. No one really knows where that money is today.
Does Rachid think that it should have gone, in some way, back to help the Palestinian people?
"Of course," he says. But, "I don't, I don't decide what we do with the money."
Fayyad is trying to make sure it's the people's money, but many say his one-man reform effort is having only limited success. Arafat recently sent armed men to prevent Fayyad from replacing the head of the civil service, who runs Arafat's patronage apparatus. That has lead some to think Fayyad himself could be in danger.
"He cannot know, and we cannot know at what point he crosses the red line," says Indyk.
Other people who have dared to call for transparency of all these finances have been beaten up, shot, and silenced. Why is Fayyad surviving? Indyk says, "We should not take it for granted."
He has upset so many powerful people, and his offices have already been ransacked more than once. But Fayyad says he does not feel threatened.
"It's a dangerous neighborhood," he admits. "But you know this is about, you know, doing the right thing for the people."
************************************************
If that's not good enough for you, how about a source closer to home? Lebanon maybe? Pro-Palestinian news source and op-ed:
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0403/04031922DS.asp
President Arafat, why not do the right thing and move on?
Youssef M. Ibrahim
In mid-February the French government revealed it had intercepted a payment of $11 million from the Palestinian National Authority headed by President Yasser Arafat to his wife Soha, who lives in Paris with his 7-year-old daughter.
It was the French press which reported the news, only one of several payments made before that time, and a perfectly legal transaction meant for Sofa Arafat's bank account.
The question is not whether it was legal, but was it moral?
Arafat's wife has been living in the lap of luxury in one of Paris' most exclusive neighborhoods, surrounded by relatives and sycophants for years. This is no secret.
What is baffling is how the Arab world, and more importantly the Palestinian people, accept this sort of blatant, vulgar corruption while seeing daily how impoverished the Palestinian people are becoming - inside and outside of Palestine - and how in the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are being crushed under the boot of a savage 37-year-old Israeli occupation.
Arabs are very swift at criticizing the West. But is it not time to look at what is wrong within their midst. People are very fond of saying Arafat, who is over 70 years old, is the leader of the Palestinian struggle. The question should be: Struggle for what?
Is the "eternal" leader of the Palestinian revolution struggling for his wife to live off money that should go to Palestinian orphans, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters of ordinary Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who are dying daily under Israeli fire, left to bleed in the streets or watch their homes destroyed?
Is Soha Arafat, with her millions of dollars and lavish dinner parties in Paris, far away from her people, struggling for the Palestinian cause in her own way?
****************************************************
Two shorts, please understand, what I want for the Palestinians is that they stand up for themselves, not just against those evil Jooooz, but against anyone, even their own, if they oppress them. Seems to me that, before the Palestinians will ever make any progress, they need to clean up their own house.
As for Papa Arafat, at one time, the most I thought about him was that he was a consumate politician and an ineffectual leader. Now I realize that he was also a greedy, self aggrandizing leader of the worst sort. Your Papa Arafat was stealing your trust fund blind.
It is quite sad that this is probably not reported to you in your world or, if it is, you choose to ignore it so you can live in your own universe.
It only took me three minutes to find one thousand articles on the subject via google. Maybe you should try using your computer to find out information instead of just throwing around some names?
http://www.pa-inv-fund.com/articles2.asp#PalestinianSeeks
It may have looked like the arid presentation of an annual budget, to the legislature of the Palestinian Authority. But it amounted to something more revolutionary.
First, because there was a 2003 budget proposal at all.
Second, because it was being disclosed publicly, in detail.
Third, and most striking, because it included seemingly bland provisions that if enacted would have major consequences for the conduct, not only of Palestinian governance, but also of the Palestinian uprising.
Take, for example, one apparent yawner: direct deposit of police salaries. This measure would strip Palestinian security chiefs of the control they now have over their forces' pay, which some have used to build unaccountable fiefs. It would also twist shut what students of the Palestinian Authority say is a tap for financing some Palestinian militants.
The man in the gray suit, Salam Fayyad, has been praised by both American and Israeli officials since he was appointed to his post as Palestinian finance minister by Yasir Arafat in June.
That is something of a problem for the finance minister, a former official of the International Monetary Fund who was educated in Lebanon and Texas. Palestinians consider the Bush administration biased in favor of Israel. The 27-month-long conflict has made them suspicious if not contemptuous of any change - and any Palestinian -
conforming to American and Israeli demands.
When these concerns about outside influence were mentioned to Mr. Fayyad after his presentation, he became so exercised that he dropped his black satchel and began
jabbing the air with one index finger.
"I'm talking about public funds - public money – the people's money!" he said in rapid-fire English. "We should manage the funds in an honest way. Tell me if this is not inspired by the Palestinian people. Tell me if the Palestinian people do not benefit from this."
Palestinian legislators, many of whom have chafed at corruption in the Palestinian Authority, said they expected the budget to pass within a month, and then for the real
fight to begin: to enact its provisions against officeholders vested in the status quo.
"Either he will submit to their demands, or resign," Jamal Shobaki, the chairman of the legislature's economic committee, said of Mr. Fayyad, expressing what he called a
common fear among reformers. "What we want is a third way - that he neither submit, nor resign."
Mr. Fayyad, who is 50, smiled when told of the comment, and said he knew a third way. "When you hit a wall," he said, "you go through it."
Mr. Fayyad, who has presented Mr. Arafat with his budget, is careful to emphasize his loyalty to the Palestinian leader. Yet his proposals, if enacted, would remove levers
of patronage and contracting that Mr. Arafat has relied on for years to run the Palestinian Authority, the Palestine Liberation Organization, and his dominant faction, Al Fatah.
**************************************************
You're own people say there is corruption. You don't hear this? You think that it was all "those others" and Papa Arafat was as pure as a virgin? That website I gave you is a Palestinian website. Not Israeli or American. Palestinian. Read it and educate yourself because there is a lot more information there.
http://www.pa-inv-fund.com/articles2.asp#PalestiniansUnveil
The Palestinian Authority's top finance official said today that he had identified $600 million in Authority assets in 79 commercial ventures, including money that he said appeared to have given rise to Israeli accusations of slush funds controlled by Mr. Arafat and others.
"Of all the issues in public finance that cause us to have a bad name, this probably is the one that had the biggest neon sign on it," said the finance minister, Salam Fayyad, a former official of the International Monetary Fund who has been praised by American and Israeli officials as an energetic reformer. In an interview here, Mr. Fayyad described a jumble of individually managed investments of public money in concerns ranging from Canadian biopharmaceuticals to Algerian cellphones. While declining to discuss in detail the performance of officials who previously controlled the investments, Mr. Fayyad said the money would now be managed by a publicly accountable board of directors of the new Palestine Investment Fund
********************************************************
You understand that "individually managed investments of public money" and "now managed by a pulbicly accountable board of directors" is the politically correct way of saying it was operated for the sole benefit of one person, Mr. Arafat, and Mr. Fayyad didn't want to say it that way because he might end up dead one day for daring to challenge your glorious leader or any other individuals in the PA? This goes right along with Mr. Raschid fleeing to California to avoid getting his ass kicked by those PA reps who were not so fortunate to have their own "individually managed" investments.
I'll tell you this, maturity someday may lend you the understanding that there are no such things as perfect leaders. Even the leaders I have voted for in the past. In the west, the one advantage we have over you is that we do not let the evil of demogoguery (google if you don't know that word) enter our politics. People are exposed. Government activities are exposed. We don't pretend to perfection. We don't "love our leader", we love our country and our people first. The leader is just a representative of that love and if he fails, he gets a kick in the pants.
You may have loved Papa Arafat, if only he loved you as much as he loved your adulation and the power. If only the palestinians loved themselves and Palestine as much as they loved the illusion. Then this conversation would be moot.
You may call me a bitch or whatever. It doesn't hurt me because I know how people react when their dreams are being challenged. It's very hard on the soul.
my bad for not spell checking, if you are going to google, google demagoguery or demagogue. see pictures of Arafat and multiple other ARab leaders next to the description.
Now, for your disgusting analogy of Palestinian "martyr" murderers compared to the American Revolutionary.
I must say, you might have had a case except for the fact that Patrick Henry never strapped 20 cannisters of grapeshot cannon rounds to his body, walked into a local market known to be frequented by civilian (largely women and children) royalist sympathizers and blew himself up. Nor did he travel to Canada or England to take a bunch of civilian cricket players hostage before bayonetting them to death, nor hijacked a clipper full of civilians migrating to America, hodling them hostage and shooting some poor old decrepit guy before throwing him overboard.
You must try to be a little more familiar with American history before trying to hitch your wagon to it.
If you want your cause to be considered "Le Grande" cause, then you must act like it. There are rules my friend to every engagement. Your cause has chosen to ignore them. I am quite familiar with the Palestinian civilian casualties caused by or during Israeli incursions into the territories. However, it is hard to condemn them when the Palestinians are so adroit at doing the same and quite deliberately too as opposed to accidental to an engagement with the enemy.
Since the Palestinian terrorists see fit to purposefully seek out civilian targets, the more vulnerable the better (because it is easier than facing a platoon or a tank), I refuse to recognize them as legitimate. Now, if I saw a group of one hundred palestinians gathering in front of a tank and fighting to the death on a regular basis, then I might be inclined to give them true martyr status because they would have sacrificed themselves against a truly larger and more lethal enemy.
That is heroic. blowing up a bus full of kindergartners is cheap, sleazy and frankly, evil. No excuses. You want to understand why someone like me does not laud your sacrifices? it is about the western cult of heroics. Google the Alamo. 163 men against an army of 5000 who sacrificed themselves in order to give Sam Houston time to escape and re-organize his army. Then read what Sam Houston did to the Mexicans. The 163 men did not go into the town next door, shoot and bayonet any Mexican to be found or take them hostage into the Alamo. They stood against an army.
How about thermopoli? 300 spartans hold the pass against 10 thousand until the rest of the army can get away and regroup, coming back to defeat the enemy. No deliberate civilian casualties there.
The battle of the bulge where a few thousand men hold out against a superior sized and armed army of German's. Did they go into the country side and shoot any civilian German they came across? Not in any history books known to man.
You want me to respect and support your cause? Give me something to respect and support. Until then, your cause is full of murderers, thieves and common criminals. Terrorist baby killers.
Speaking of Mafia's, let us not forget that the PA and all its attendent gangs and mob bosses, handing out favors and offing each other when they get the chance. Can't have anyone actually BE for PALESTINIANS. It's all about the power, baby, and you'd better understand that if want to survive and get your chance to live in your dream of Palestine.
Let us address your assertion that it was 50 years of occupation that made the Palestinians dirt poor. For you to even believe that points once again to your own delusions about Le Grande Histore of Arab prominence in the Palestine Mandate. The palestinians have been dirt poor since time immemorial. Long before the Jew ever thought of immigrating there. The economic system, even at the turn of the 20th century, resembled the medieval bartering system. The rich ones didn't even live there, but, as pointed out, were absentee land owners. At best, there was a small middle class population of store owners and traders with a few larger farmers and herders. even then they did not own most of the land, but leased it.
Thus having the farm literally sold out from under them by their Arab landlords. Why is it so hard for you to admit?
There was not great industrialized or economically advanced culture there in the first place. The only thing that happened was a larger population of poverty stricken folks congregated in a much smaller land mass (the west bank and Gaza) making the poverty level that much more apparent and the possibility of returning to old trades of farming and herding impossible.
It did not make them any poorer. Just poor together.
Now, for your two state problem. I already pointed out that it was your leaders, pre Israeli independence, who ruined your opportunity for one large, mostly Arab state. The problem of course, was that they wanted it all and wanted the Jews completely gone, not just stopping immigration.
At that point, the Jews become the revolutionaries seeking independence, which is why, while I know all about their assassinations of certain officials and I can condemn them, historically, the over all idea that they fought for and died for their independence and security, is something I can support.
Couple that with the hardliners in your group (including Arafat) who espouse the ideology that all Jews should be wiped from this earth, it is the reason why you must settle for two states. Since the Jews cannot ever be assured of their existance at the hands of your leaders in one state called Palestine, I will forever support their right to exist, to have their own state and to self defense, including the right to make offensive incursions against the terrorists. Until such a time comes that I no longer hear such rhetoric from the lips of your most prominent "minutemen", my stand will stay, however I pity the plight of the common man in the west bank and Gaza and wish on them a peaceful and prosperous life.
As for your other assertions that it is the Israeli occupation and US support that has made you poor, you obviously have no idea how economics work. How business works. No company with half a brain is going to invest or build companies in a place where corruption is rampant, violence is regular and ongoing and they cannot be assured of the safety of their investments or assets.
You want economic improvements and financial independence? Try quelling the little mafioso grafters you've got running around posing themselves as "revolutionaries", skimming a buck off of everything and threatening to kill anyone that doesn't comply. Try not blowing things up and establishing the true rule of law in the territories.
Palestine, with all its poverty, is ripe for factories and other manufacturers. Mainly because your over crowded poor would make excellent cheap labor. That might sound degrading at first, but the more money flows into the country through salaries and building, the more money in the hands of the common man and the possibility of opening their own factories, stores, etc and doing a thriving import and export business.
Instead, you have a PA full of ministers and goons who are knocking on doors of legitimate businesses and demanding kickbacks. As noted by the articles I point to above. Nobody is coming there to save you and no Palestinian who isn't "in" is going to open a business and thrive when everything they own can be taken away by a goon with a Fatah patch or head band, where they are not protected by the rule of law.
Israel thrives, even as boys and girls try to kill themselves and as many others as possible in martyr operations (murder), because they have the rule of law, the protection of their citizens and property.
In the end, I am telling you to look to yourselves for your woes and stop playing your little pity card. You are killing yourselves literally and figuratively daily like blind men walking onto the freeway and wondering why it is they keep getting ran over and the cars will not listen to their demands for them to stop.
Best reply to Kat ever is this one,
" Here is some HISTORY Documented of the ISRAELI TERRORISM for you to read.
After the state of Israel was established, the Lehi, displeased with what it considered the too pro-Arab views of the Swedish UN-appointed mediator for Palestine, assassinated him; on September 17, 1948, Count Folke Bernadotte-who, as a neutral diplomat in World War II, had saved thousands of Jews from Nazi death camps-was shot and killed by Lehi assassins, along with French colonel Andre Serot, the senior UN military observer, whose wife's life had been saved by Bernadotte.
The Bernadotte assassination was so outrageous that the nascent government of David Ben-Gurion had little problem disbanding the Lehi (though none of the assassins were ever brought to justice). Yet, despite this history of terror, the Israeli Ministry of Defense underwrites museums commemorating the Stern Gang and the Irgun- which, under Menachem Begin, bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel in 1946, leaving 90 dead and 45 wounded (with 15 Jews among the casualties). Like Lehi, it wasn't until 1948 that the Irgun was forced out of existence, after its arms-transport ship, the Altalena, was blown up by the provisional Israeli government-a point analysts like Ibish say bears remembering.
"There are streets named after the assassins of Moyne and Bernadotte. They are historical figures not disavowed by the rhetoric of the state of Israel, nor is there any reflection on the fact that two terrorist leaders later became distinguished leaders of the republic," Ibish says. "And now people are saying that Arafat must have his Altalena." Ibish adds that Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, "never moved against the Irgun and the Stern Gang until after the state was established and secured, which is definitely not true in the case of the Palestinian Authority. Essentially, the Israelis are asking the Palestinians to do something they themselves refused to do."
Israeli tanks in 2002 rolled into the HQ of the Palestian leader Arafat. If Arafat had all the money wouldn't he spend part of it to secure himself and his organization? Arafat lived in a cage and only European peace activist formed a human shield to protect him.
Non of the links provided by the anti-Arafat showed us that he spent it on himself or any project in his name. The only accusation against him financially so far is sending his wife some money. The French court found both of them not guilty.
Since Kat is very much against terrorism. I'm surprised that she didn't suggest bombing Saudi and Egypt. We must be cowards.
Hasty generalization is a disease that affected our American Society. As per the attacks posted against the Palestinians we should also say that the history of Israelis, Saudis, Egyptians are not any better.
Timothy of Oklahoma is a pure American and the Anthrax came from America by Americans. Therfore I suggest we call 1-800-American terrorists first.
First of all, don't drag me into your comments, I didn't bother reading it first because it's the same old right-wing nuts ranting over and over again, so, its old news to me. Its mostly pointless argues and bigotry borrowed from the like of Ann Coulter, Daniel Pipes, etc and since these comments are mostly for the response of sandmonkey and through the cowboys cheering and howlings and the rednecks applauding on their beer bellies I didnt bother to reply.Ann Coulter is quite amusing, but I’ve never read or listened to Pipes. I’ll have to check him out. And, everyone in the US is a redneck if they don’t agree with you? Bigotry, thy name is Maghdee
But since you obviously a double dosage of your Prozac and being so paranoid, I took pity in you and I decided to pay you some attention.
"Maghdee..is that you under that mask?" no Kat it's not me, or you just trying your luck with conspiracy theories that you hate so much!!What? You don’t have a sense of humor? Sounded like it to me.
Getting back to your comments towards Twosret
Yep, you're right Arafat father died serving the Nazi collaborator (not sympathizer) Imam Al-Husyani. Arafat is also a relative of of Al-Husayni. Let's see the Nazis were fighting the British, French and Jews. Arabs were also fighting the British occupation and the French occupation and the Jewish inflitration of Palestine (there were no Germans in Arab lands). Um…first of all, you have a tiny bit of your history backwards. The Arabs were actually allies of the British. At least Hussein of Jordan and his sons were and then Aziz Al Saud over in Saudi was pretty darned interested in keeping British patronage at that time. Seems they’d struck this thing called oil over there and the Brits made an agreement with him for more money than he’d hoped to see in his lifetime and he was using it to build the state of Saudi Arabia. Let us not forget that Hussein banded together with the Brits to throw Al Hussayni’s little band of pro nazi officers out of Iraq after they tried to overthrow Feisel. As for the other Arabs in Palestine, they weren’t doing much of anything yet in terms of fighting the Brits. Just an uprising here and there. Not particularly popular yet. We’re talking 1936 – 1939, then the Iraqi episode, 1941 I believe.
What the Imam did is that he used the same adage "enemy of my enemy is my friend" that was being used by Americans and allies when they worked with the Russians in the WW2,Very true, enemy of my enemy. But we’re talking about present day manifestations of Nazism in the Palestinian cause and the fact that Arafat never relinquished what he learned at his mentors knee. All the “final solution” rhetoric dressed up as “freedom from occupation” is just that. The picture speaks a thousand words. Of course, reading on the subject and looking at the Hamas and other propaganda pictures of youths in uniforms and training camps kind of stirs up images of Nazi Youth. Not to mention the demagoguery of the leader for life, Arafat with 9 million pictures and scripted rallies.
You might also recall that eventually, the Russian Soviet juggernaut went the way of the Do-Do bird. Nazism apparently has not taken it’s final swan dive in the middle east. It’s just dressed up as fancy socialism in the cause of the Palestinians.
later also the US used it when they created Bin Laden Cell and helped the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets and also when they helped Saddam against Iran.Now your repeating a conspiracy theory. The United States did not create the “Bin Laden Cell”. Read OBLs official biography or any history site on the subject. OBL was in Afghanistan in 1979. He set up his first data base/list of mujihadeen (Al Qaida – The Base) in 1981. The US did not start funneling money to the fighters until 1983 and that was via Pakistani Intelligence. Four years, Maghdee, doing it all by his little lonesome self. OBL never saw, met, spoke to or received aid directly from an agent of the United States. He’d tell you that too and has said so on any number of occasions since he doesn’t want to be associated with us anymore than we want him. He was quite on his own and just one of thousands in the scheme of things. Further, he was quite put off by the leaders involved and that is why he created his own group and started his own recruiting drive to get young idealistic Saudis to join him as well as get funding from people in his own country. He wanted control of his own operations.
Not that he may not have gotten some money filtered to him somewhere, but that is an entirely different situation than the US “creating” bin Laden.
That’s a little story you all like to tell yourselves so you don’t have to claim him and admit that he was created by his life and experiences as an Arab youth getting his instructions on the importance of Jihad from a muslim Islamic cleric.
And don't forget that the peace hero Anwar Sadat was also a Nazi collabrator in his heydays! I’ll let you argue with Sandman about whether Sadat was a Nazi collaborator. That’s not the point of the discussion. It’s also called “strawman”, maghdee. I mentioned that in an earlier post where I bring up the problem with your favorite guy and you start pointing your fingers at everyone else.
Now, that doesn't make them sympathizers or believers in Nazi ideology simply because they can't believe in an Aryan supremacy ideology! So it doesn't defame Arafat being a decendent of the Al-Husyani.Well now, that’s where you are wrong again. Al Hussayni (Husyani?) recruited and organized Muslim SS troops for the Nazis. It seems that Hitler and Husyani thought that their common cause was good enough to create a shared ideology. Namely that the Jew was responsible for all their ills. Al Hussayni also set up a Muslim Nazi Officers School in Berlin and lived quite nicely off the money he got from dead jews bank accounts. You can google that too. Seems also that the Nazis felt the “warrior code” and austerity of the Islamic faith made the Aryans and the Arabs pretty close cousins.
Arafat’s defamation vis-à-vis his association with the Nazis is, as I point out, his ability to take everything he learned and use it for his own, as I mention earlier regarding demagoguery, icons and pep rallies, right down to that nifty little salute that youth in the picture was giving. The same salute I’ve seen in hundreds of pictures of Palestinian terrorists getting together. Except now, the Aryans are gone and it’s about Arab supremacy and socialism and demagoguery (I love that word). It spells Nazi (National Socialist Party – how many of those parties you got running around over there?)
And if Patrick Henry was up against Apaches, F-16's, Tanks etc while the only things he have are old Klashinkoves and some home-made bombs... YES he would have "strapped 20 cannisters of grapeshot cannon rounds to his body" and bombed the first Brit he faced... as I recall his words were "Give me liberty or give me death", or do you have historical proof that he was a sissy?No historical proof he was a sissy, but he was an honorable man and honorable men don’t go around and didn’t go around slaughtering non-combatants as a normal practice of warfare.
Further, historically speaking, for his day, Patrick Henry was fighting the Apaches, F-16’s and tanks while holding the 18th century version of a klashinicof and malatov cocktail. If you knew revolutionary history, you’d know the British out manned the rebs by at least 4 to 1. They also had a very big navy, capable of moving them up and down the coast at their will. The 18th century equivalent of apaches and F-16s when their frigates could stand off the coast and deliver rounds at their leisure on any fortification meant stave them off. The Rebs had a small flotilla of a few frigates and clippers and tug boats. The Brit’s also out gunned them with their rifle barreled Brown Bess’s that were much more accurate and had a greater distance of fire than the smooth barreled muskets most of the rebs sported. And the Brits cannon were the highest technology of the time as well as having an endless supply of rockets (rockets red glare). 18th century equivelent of the tank and ground to ground missiles. The rebs had a mish mash of cannon they’d procured during the previous French and Indian wars as well as anything they could take off the Brits when they had a chance.
The Brits also had an endless supply of ammunition, regularly supplied to them by their foundaries in Canada and supply ships from Britain while the rebs were often forced to beg lead objects from local houses in order to melt it down to make bullets..
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/henry.htm
He died in 1799, at home after long service to country and state, never once strapping on a vest of grape shot and blowing up civilians.
Shall we continue debating American history, or get down to brass tacks of the Palestinian cause du jour?
But since you started this topic I believe that "Intifadah" should avoid any civillians even the occupying settlers , as I believe it's not their fault being there (except for the religious Kahane freaks)... and that they should stick to giving the IDF the hell they deserve!Well, you want me to agree with you on something? There it is. I don’t much appreciate the extreme right Jews that claim they have a religious right to the land because the covenant with Abraham gave it to them and that Arabs are dogs. However, I haven’t read much on them strapping on bombs and blowing up kindergartners. But, if you have information on that, I’d be happy to read it.
The main point is, I don’t really care for any extreme religious group. Particularly ones that want to inflict themselves and their ideology on the rest of the world. People want to practice their extremism at home or in their own church, whip themselves or bang themselves on the head with something, that’s their own business. Just don’t try to feed it to the rest of us.
Since you brought the terrorism thing up, how about historical Israelis terrorism in Dir Yassin, Ibrahimia mosque and many other This Link to refresh your memory.
And how Israeli soldier pointing a gun and shooting a 9 years old girl in cold blood... how about How about that? How about the 9 year old girl story? It wasn’t right. But I like to give credit where credit is due and I think the fact that she was carrying something extra special in her bag from some asshole that set her up to be their runner seems to give some equal time to the terrorists for blame. You see, I’m not blind to the issues. But then there is propaganda and there is propaganda. She conveniently became another martyr to the cause.
I’d punch up a link to HBO, but I’m a bit tired right now. They followed two young boys about 10 (the age of my nephews) as they were inducted into the terror cell, used for spotters and runners, tasked with making bombs and carrying them for the “resistance”. They even interviewed the men they were helping out who conveniently hid behind their balaclavas.
You know what I remember most about the film? When the journalist asked the terrorists how they felt about using that boy and the possibility he could be killed during their little escapades, the lead terrorist answered very nonchalantly, “Then he will be a martyr.” The journalist pressed him some more about what they would do if he was killed. His answer, “We will find another little soldier to replace him. There are thousands more like him.” And he answered that in english Maghdee. English because the little boy only spoke Arabic and the HBO journalist had to use a translater to speak to him the entire time.
I guess the big bad terrorist didn’t want the little boy to hear how expendable he was. He might get the idea that he wasn’t really their little brother, just another cog, a bomb to be thrown. Maybe he’d start to wonder if they were just as bad as the Israelis.
When that man said that, it sent a chill through me because this is the fate of the Palestinian youth. Cannon fodder of the lowest sort.
So, cold blood she was shot? Since you like to play hypothetical games here, let’s talk about what the soldier was thinking as he watched the girl walk across no man’s land with a bag. He was thinking that she was carrying ammunition, a bomb, something and he or others might die because the rules of war usually forbid the targeting of children and yet, here they were, a little girl carrying out a mission for the terrs. A mission that might end in many more dead. I’d say that the guy was forced to go against his normal inhibitions about shooting children. But, in an insurgency, the insurgents can do what they want, use who they want, kill who they want and the other side is supposed to take it and “fight fair”, meaning of course, they get one hand tied behind their backs and more of them will die.
But that’s the point right?
As for PA corruption, yes, they are corrupt but your GOP heroes aren't? the Israelis aren't? Sharon and his Cyprus scandal son aren't? American blessed Mubarak regime isn't? The pennies PA officials took from Gulf Arabs or US for themselves is not the reason behind palestinians poverty but the occupation is... and missiling eveything from resedential buildings to Airports and cutting their Agriculture lands and building Apartheid wall made them much more into poverty. Strawman, maghdee, strawman. I point to the corruption of Arafat and the PA and it’s effect on the Palestinian financial situation and you start pointing to everyone else. And based on your comment about pennies ($1 billion for Arafat and millions for the rest of them. Those were pennies? Are you filthy rich Maghdee that a billion dollars is “pennies’? Off the top of my head I could name about 100 things that could have been done with that billion and that’s just the stuff that’s been found so far) I take it that you will give your demagogue a pass. God forbid you find out or recognize that he was a thief and a greedy one at that. But of course, he was your thief, heh? Makes it alright then.
You mean the apartheid wall that has put an end to the terrorists abilities to kill whomever they wanted on what ever day and in whatever way? Now the terrorists must run off to Taba to blow people up because they can’t get in. You want to blame someone for that? See your local terrorist groups. Start with Hamas and wind your way to Fatah maybe drop by the hezbollah. These groups aren’t in this thing for peace or for land. They are the Palestinian’s religious fanatics whose goal is to wipe out the Jews. Hence the wall to protect themselves.
And, since Israel is a sovereign state, they can protect their borders however they want. The US has a nice big fence (regularly crossed unfortunately). It’s not apartheid. Apartheid’s sole purpose was to keep one race from mixing with another. In this case, it’s about self defense. Remember the bus of kindergartners? If that had never happened, nor any of the hundreds of other suicide bombings, the wall would never have existed.
We can go back and forth all day about “missiling residential buildings and air ports”. I’d say first it’s tit for tat. How about missiling the nice school full of kids that just occurred recently? Or the random “shoot and scoot” ops of the terrs? Think they aim those things very well? At military targets?
Why don't you and others just admit that your blind support of Israel is based on your religious believes? So we can stop arguing because there's no point in arguing with a religious nutcase! And also so you can spare us the democracy, technology, morals etc BS talk whenever Israel pops out in a subject.Democracy, technology and morals are BS? Well now, that explains everything and proves my point. As long as your attitude exists, Palestine as a state will not.
As for my religious beliefs, you assume quite a bit, don’t you? How do you know I’m not a Jew? Or a muslim? Or a buddhist? Or a hindi?
Interestingly, I’ve noted that I never once assumed you were a Muslim nor stated my case from any religious point of view. Not even the right of Israel to exist. Mainly because I don’t believe anyone has a religious right to land, property or state. Nor did I care that you were a Muslim (or whatever you practice. Maybe you are agnostic? Athiest? Did it matter in the discussion that was about history and politics?). And it’s so easy for you to whip out the religious card, isn’t it Maghdee? Because, in the end, that’s your conspiracy theory, not mine. The evil Christian-Zionist conspiracy to oppress the Muslims? Aren’t there Christian Palestinians?
Israel thrives on the Western guilt through US support and holocaust blac... (okay let me put it in a nice word so you won't scream anti-semite) holocaust reparations.I won’t scream anti-semite, you do it quite well on your own and went there on your own. Once again, I never mentioned religion as a cause or purpose. Israel’s right to exist is about 50 years of fighting for the land and dying for. 50 years existing as a recognized state. Certainly states that have existed longer have been all but wiped from the map. But in this one case, they exist and it must be nearly killing you to have to look at it. There they were immigrating to a country long before the holocaust. Long before the holocaust, Al Husayni and any number of his ilk tried to remove them from a land that the Arabs could have had at any time as a state. Exept they didn’t want to recognize a jew as a citizen of an Arab state. So, who then was the racist?
And you maghdee, shall I assume what you believe? What would you do if one day the Arabs got the land? Kill all the Jews? Protect them under the law as a minority in your country?
Honestly, I don’t know why you cut off that last sentence since you were more than obvious in your beliefs already. Why try to protect your image now? Because you call others “religious nuts” and you don’t want it thrown back at you?
Finally, we don't seek pity we seek justice as we don't have a holocaust to flash it out for pity!
You want to know what’s really funny about that statement? Your illustrious leaders have been begging at my hand for years. My hand, the hand of the American citizen. If it weren’t for the west, Gaza, Sinai and the western bank would be part of Israel today. Think about that while you’re demanding your justice.
I’ll also remember to write our congressman about the 15 bil in pity money we’ve been throwing at the Palestinians. Since you think it was pennies and irrelevant. You know what 15 billiion looks like? Probably beyond your scope of understanding. It’s about 90 times the Palestinian GDP. That’s a lot of people without shelter, food, protection or loans for businesses and rebuilt air ports, hospitals (I’ve seen the state of your hospitals and they could have used that 1 billion Arafat stole and maybe saved a few 9 year olds lives; so not only was he a thief but a murderer of his own people; and you shrug it off.)
It was my money maghdee. Mine I worked for, sweated for and paid taxes for and they went to you and your kind. Bet you’d like to say we owed you for our support of Israel. How’s that for blackmail?
And it was pennies, you say? The were my pennies and I’d gladly take them back. Can you arrange that for me? Know anyone that can give me back my pennies?
Your family probably subsisted on my pennies for years. Cough them up you ungrateful wretch, right now. I don’t want an IOU or promises either. I want cash, up front.
I demand justice and if there was any in this world, I'd never pay another dime into the gaping maw of the Palestinian Authority.
GIVE ME BACK MY MONEY!
Magdee,
We, as Americans, owe a good deal of our independence to the French people. May 2, 1776 King Louis XVI of France commits one million dollars in arms and munitions to American forces.
Cough it up Kat give the French all the money back. Hypocricy, double standard, manipulation and the utmost bigotry you claim on others is yours indeed!
You know why she doesn't make sense Magdee not because any of you is right and the other is wrong. It is because when you want to put history in place or present a conflict you need to tackle it from both point of views.
People like her doesn't push the peace forward. First long post is clear. She pushes hate against arabs. What's new? it is much easier for us to think this way than to look back and say what have we done wrong in our foreign affair.
I will pitch in for her to take the plane and visit the Palestinians and get a better view of the other side of the story.
Do you think she will go?
Different Perspective
While this is no where near true, lets put the Israeli Palestine conflict in a different light. Sort of a Bizarro World if you will. This helps me see things from what I would see it as my point of view.
-------------
One day, after years and years of unprevented Mexican illegal immigration into Texas, the Mexicans found themselves in the majority and said "We now proclaim Texas to be the sovereign state of Hispania!". Naturally the non Mexican Texans at the time didn't like this and a fight broke out. Supplied by Europe, the Mexican Texans wiped out the indigenous people, and further they drove out those that were not killed into the neighboring states of Louisiana, Oklahoma, etc. To make matters worse, the leaders of certain Hispanian kill squads occupied the top governmental posts to include prime minister and defense minister!
So the US as a whole didn't like this and prepared to launch a war to set things back the way they were. Unfortunately, Europe let it be known without doubt that any action taken against Hispania (they had already recognized it as a country) would result in Nuclear War. Maybe both the US and Europe would be wiped out as a result but hey, this is Bizarro World... gimme some artistic license.
OK so now the US is stuck. The reclaimation of Texas is not worth the destruction of all of Europe and the US, and now the US is stuck with all these darn refugees who are demanding this "Right of Return". When confronted with the perception of immorality of invasion, the Hispanions just respond "We just took back what was ours! Texas was Mexican long before it was American. We are just setting things right." So now... What to do?
US citizens tended to fall into three camps
1. Invade anyway.. dying in nuclear war is preferable to having foreigners occupry OUR LAND (Hardliners)
2. Support Hipania.. They have the right to a country of their own, look at the poor treatment these Hispanionists have faced in the US and Mexico. Without a country of their own they will always be at the mercy of the majority (Hispania-lovers)
3. Fall back and regroup... Recognize the existance of Hispania, form trading relationships, and never let another illegal immigrant into the United States ever again. Learn from this horrible lapse in national defense (Pragmatists)
------
And so the solution to Palestine is.... hard to say isn't it. If I were on the receiving end (a palestinian or just an Arab living nearby) of what I perceived the injustice of Israeli zionism I'd try to recognize that living in the past is not helpful. Well at least it hasn't for the past 4 plus wars and countless Intifadas. I'd say gee this isn't getting me anywheres, in fact Israel is more rich now than that area has ever been in the history of the world. Fat lot of good my resistance and wars against it seem to have done. In world history there has been injustice. If the US can be friends with Russia and China (two of the biggest mass murdering countries world history has ever known) I guess I can be friends with Israel. Certainly peaceful co-existance is in my best interest and in fact the only thing that is preventing a cease fire in the fighting is my "pride." At this point the only way to "get back" at Israel is to build a country next door that is even more prosperous and peaceful than their country. Let them envy us. Hey it worked for Japan and South Korea didn't it? Check out Taiwan. Here is a group of people brutalized by the Communists, and then their greatest ally (the US) allows them to be replaced in the UN and chums up with the very Communists that drove them into exile. Yet life there is stable and good (well mostly). Why can't it work for me? That would be my conclusion. Yes I'd remember history but at some point its like blaming white Americans for Slavery.. the current generations had nothing to do with it. Yeah I would wish Britain would have picked somewhere else to stash these Jews but here we are. The war was fought and my side lost. Many countries have lost and moved on with their lives. Very few spend the next 50 years in self imposed nose-cutting-to-spite-face temper tantrums.
Bronson,
You have thrown a heavy burden on me to answer an eternal conflict that no President US, British, Palestinian, Egyptian…etc., managed to solve (or may be I should say was willing to solve it based on equal rights) but here is my point of view based on my own readings to different sources. I would like to quote legal, academic, intellectuals, and politicians beside my personal experience hoping that the solution I think is best would not sound just be a personal limited view.
My first quote is for Aimé Césaire wonderful poem
“but the work of man is only just beginning
and it remains to man to conquer all
violence entrenched in the recesses of his passion.
And no race possesses the monopoly of beauty,
of intelligence, of force, and there
is a place for all at the rendezvous
of victory.”
The are endless possibilities for solutions but I will address few points first:-
Radical verses Sensible
When Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir infamously declared in 1969, "There are no Palestinians”. Martin Buber, Judah Magnes who was an idealist, a man way ahead of his time. People like the first president of Hebrew University, Hannah Arendt, who realized that there was going to be a clash if the aggressive settlement policies and the ignoring of the Arabs pressed ahead were thinking positively and forward to a solution. David Ben-Gurion actually said, "There's no case in history where a people simply gives up and allows another people to take their territory over."
Amazingly enough Moshe Dayan made a famous remark. He said every Israeli town and village had a former Arab occupant. He was able to see it, and he said it.
The Propaganda and Isolation of the Palestinians
In his book "Faces of the Enemy," Sam Keen writes that "in the beginning we create the enemy.... Propaganda precedes technology." We are invisible people. You can see clearly in a lot of forums that the real ordinary people of Palestine are not recognized. The Propaganda is that all Palestinians are terrorists. Palestine is a thankless cause. You get nothing back but abuse, and ostracism. How many friends avoid the subject? How many colleagues want nothing of Palestine's controversy? How many liberals have time for Bosnia and Somalia and South Africa and Nicaragua and human and civil rights everywhere on Earth, but not for Palestine and Palestinians.
Palestinians are isolated from the world and even the Arab world because of the complicated procedures of travel. There is also a huge need to study the Israeli society and it’s language why should they study us only? You need to know your enemy and understand it’s fiber. May be in the process of understanding them a miracle might happen. I oppose the armed struggle that caused innocent deaths and did nothing to advance the Palestinian case politically I understand human desperation based on Trauma but I don’t condone an extremist based religious rights. I think a lot of the western people don’t even understand the abuse of the extreme religious influence to the Intafada.
Moreover, Arab radical intellectuals have decided to isolate Palestinians by refusing to deal with Israel. There is no way for Palestinians to move on without the help and support of other Arabs since the west have decided to favor Israel. Palestine needs advancement in Education, Health and mainly in army development.
An example of the solutions provided so far
Oslo's goal was for the PA to police the Palestinian population on behalf of Israeli interests. While some PLO leaders and wealthy Palestinians benefited from the deal, it offered nothing to ordinary Palestinians, and it provided Israel with cover to expand on more Palestinian land and expand illegal settlements in the West Bank.
1980s, The PLO called for a Palestinian state to exist side-by-side with Israel, but he came to realize that this "two-state solution" would never offer Palestinians genuine autonomy. We accept it so far for showing our true peace initiative.
Ideal Solution
The only logical alternative was a single democratic state with equal rights for all its citizens, Jews and Arabs provided so far. Binational state, one government equally represented and I know it seems like a totally long shot and completely like a Utopian, not to say to many people a crazy idea, it is the one idea that will allow people to live with--and not exterminate--each other. There is no way for Palestinian and Israeli Leaders to work based on two state self interest. There will be always bloodshed and the vicious circle of who started first. The Arabs and Israelis are irrevocably intertwined. They look alike they eat the same food they live based on very similar religious beliefs.
As Edward Said puts it clearly “A lot of it is an inter-Jewish debate, not something that's taking place between Palestinians and Israelis. It's taking place within--as it did in the case of Magnes and Arendt and Buber--the Zionist or Jewish camp. There are frequent dialogues, frequent conferences between Palestinians and Israeli intellectuals, not with an eye towards--as there have been for so many years--settling the problem in a governmental way, as an adjunct to the peace process. That's led nowhere.This is a new kind of discussion, one that is based upon patient scholarship and scrupulous archival work. It's not carried out by people with political ambitions. It's mostly people who have a certain standing in their community as academics and intellectuals. It's quite a new phenomenon. I don't think it's been too focused on by the media, which is completely obsessed with the failing peace process.”
The hope in people, culture, and music
Bronson, there is hope in Young Israeli arabs because they know Israeli’s best and also highly educated Expats like legal advisor of PLO Diana Buttu who left western countries to work on the cause (the most noble which is peace). There is hope in future generations to co-exist based on equal rights in my opinion.
YMCA of Jerusalem have graduated young generation of love throughout it’s mission for long years.
Zubin Mehta a conductor of Philharmonic who is fanatically pro-Israeli attended a musical concert in the West Bank conducted by Edward Said and Barenhoim’s who said “If Israel is going to continue to exist, it has to exist in relations of friendship and equality with Arabs and Muslims. It wasn’t an ordinary concert for Mehta whose tears were pouring on his face all through the event.
Numerous examples of cooperation between the Israelis and Palestinians for those only who are willing to look beyond TERRORISM.
Finally, thanks for asking for some solution.
Kat,
I have made a mistake by calling you a bitch. It is out of my nature to use such language. I apologize for using this specific term. I don't think you have anything to do with my dream or my country. Your comments didn't touch my reality. Your comments only portrayed your own thoughts not my country.
I think we will not meet on any middle ground discussion from now on. So I confirm my desire not to converse on future posts.
T.
Bonjour tout le monde
Magdee,
Always a pleasure to read you. I'm actually learning a lot about Egypt political situation from you. I'm also learned from the opposition that we do have a responsibility to teach the west and seize every possible opportunity to convey the other side of the story.
Anonymous,
Your few posts were encouraging and hopefully an eye opener to some of the readers about some double standard attitude when it comes to Palestinians.
Chinaman,
I only read your post today. Very sorry for not replying earlier. I hope my replies will answer your questions.
Bronson,
After reading my previous posts I've noticed a number of typos and grammar mistakes. I have tried my best to post a reply promptly but, I have had a very pressuring schedule and very few hours of sleep.
Twosret,
Thank you very much for your well researched and thought provoking post. If there were grammar and other such mistakes I sure missed them. Key thing is to get the point across and your post has done that quite well.
The single state solution certainly would be nice. However the obvious stumble point here would be that between the Arabs currently in Israel, plus Gaza, plus West bank, puts the Jews almost back into ethnic minority status. Throw in the much higher birthrates for Arabs and at some point Israel is no longer a "Jewish State"... which was kind of the point of the whole Zionist movement.
Looking forward to chatting further about such topics, I fear this thread is getting too old to scroll down and find in the blog anymore. So long as we are talking single state I wonder if an option would be for Egypt to "Plebecite" (annex) Gaza and Jordan to annex the West Bank. History tells me that this occupation did occur after the fighting in 1948. Wonder which would do more to scuttle this idea... Palestinian desire for statehood, Egypt and Jordan not wanting to take on that many pseudo-refugees (and desire to use them to agitate Israel), or Israeli discomfort at the loss of what could be considered buffer zones.
Bronson,
I'm still here following up on this topic. I will be more than happy to reply to your question. I would like to bring light on the status of Jews in Morocco. Jews live in Morocco in peace all through the events of clashes between other arabs and nations. It is a perfect example of how a minority can live in peace. We need to look deeply into their experience and see what we can learn from it. I understand that it is not the same exact situation but if another arab/muslim nation did it why we can't do it?(Based on the idea of one state)
The fact that the Jews will be less than arabs doesn't mean that they can't live side by side in Peace. Haifa is a perfect example. I was reading an article about how the Jews and arabs around the city of Romana was supporting each other and lived in harmony and Peace with no problems until they started building a fence/wall which cuts deep into the Palestinian lands. The Jews in the nearby settlement stood for their neighbors and didn't rest until the defense minister visited them and promised to solve their problem.
If you are the same Bronson in Rosetta Stone then I would love to share some views with you also. I think dialogue is very important and healthy at this point between all parties who are willing to make peace happen.
As for the Jordan Egypt situation I would like to read more on this topic from different point of views and reply to you.
Thanks,
T.
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