Lebanon reaching a boiling point
As i sat this morning watching the Al Jazeerah and LBC channels for coverage on Rafik Harriri's assassination, I was kind of humbeld by how the coverage wasn't the usual status quo B.S. that would involve blaming Israel and the USA and taking away all the blame from Syria, and actually involved a lot of open accusations from the Lebanese opposition and the news anchors to Syria. I watched as members of the oppositions cried in the middle of a press conference in which they held the current lebanese government responsible and demanded that they do not attend Harriri's funeral. I watched as members of the syria-loyal government squirmed when questioned about the assissination. I watched as the lebanese minister of interior warned that accusing syria is unacceptable cause it would "undermine the lebanese unity". And as i watched i realised that what i am probably watching is the first nail in the coffin of the syrian occupation of lebanon. And that brought a tiny smile to my face. Lebanon is boiling, make no mistake about it. Today is the first day of a three day period of national mourning, the opposition already called for the government's resignation and a complete Syrian troop pullout. It seems that despite syria's continued denial, the lebanese people know who is responsible: protesters hurled stones at the Baath party headquarters in al-Kula area and burned pictures of Syrian President Bashar al-Asad. I guess the most amazing thing to me was a last week article that i found at Al-Ahram weekly website that discussed the rapidly growing anti-Syrian opposition movement in Lebanon and how they warned the authorities in Beirut against clamping down on its key figures ahead of legislative elections in May in which Syria's military presence is a key feature. Omar Karami, the syria supporting prime minister responded by saying : "They are crossing all boundaries -- Syria and the nationalists in Lebanon are not weak -- we will show them". And show them they sure did, huh? Here are some really interesting snippets i found in that article: Pro-Syrian politicians accuse Israeli officials of helping draft Resolution 1559, which did not name Damascus and Hizbullah by name, but Secretary-General Annan who is due to produce a crucial report on its implementation specified by name Syria and the Muslim Shia group in a Security Council document. The opposition rejected government charges. "It seems that they have gone back to the language of threats but I remember that it was the Baath gangs who killed Kamal Jumblatt," the opposition leader responded, in reference to his late father who was assassinated in 1977. Blaming Syria for the late leader of a Muslim-leftist alliance that opposed Damascus at the time, Jumblatt drew charges of treason and massacres during Lebanon's civil war. "Will there be new assassinations?" Walid Jumblatt asked a gathering in Beirut on Sunday, citing an October attempt on the life of his top ally, former minister Marwan Hamadeh, who survived a car bomb attack that killed his body guard. Jumblatt held intelligence services responsible for the blast. Mr. Jumblatt, i believe your question just got answerd!
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 2/15/2005 01:36:00 AM
17 Comments:
The sun is setting of Ba'athism. Good riddance.
Sandmonkey that was interesting though rather oversimplistic, I wish you had given the audience here a little lesson in history about the alleged Syrian occupation, maybe you could have explained why the Syrian troops have been there for so long in the first place. Like you I don't want them to be there anymore when their job of stabilising Lebanon was done, but each time plans were set to pull out it was the Lebanese democratically elected government who requested they remain, because it was afraid they could not keep the coutry together ( it is a similar situation to what is now happening in Iraq, the US troops can't really pull out because it will descend into hell even more and you are aware of that mush heik?) So as I was saying please give the whole picture don't just say it is Baathism. I don't know if you've been in Lebanon during the civil war, but I can assure you, boy were we glad when the Syrian troops arrived ( on request ) and put some order into that chaos. They may have overstayed but that is no reason for you to want to 'nail a coffin'. You've got a nice talent so use it fairly to both sides of an argument and not to score points, because after all you have to keep in mind that our US or Euro readers do not all know the intricate details or fabric of the Middle-East ( though they may go and research the stuff). A soldier is a soldier he/she does not have the luxury to leave the duty especially a Syrian soldier who is drafted and has not chosen to go to the army or be in the baath party. The army is compulsory in Syria and a deserter is heavily penalised. Finally I support a Syrian troops pullout, it would stop being a drain on all those young men and decrease the heightened tension of the Lebanese people who are increasingly told they are occupied and who instead of staying and regaining and fighting for their country have emigrated and continue to emigrate to greener pastures, leaving it to the vultures, and all sorts of people with clashing agendas. If you want the Syrians out, you have to put Lebanese men in their place to uphold the law and order that is the price one must pay. I sympathise with Lebanon and with the people for just wanting a life and getting the hell out of there, but that is what you get, you must guard your own house. If you hire a watchman, but want him no more then, you must dismiss him and not be ambivalent about it. So long as the Lebanese government asks the Syrians to stay and the Syrian gov agrees to stay then the troops cannot pullout.
One more thing, as GM has said on his post about Mubarak and how he supports that Mubarak stays in power because there is no credible opposition to him yet and he GM does not wish to be liberated US style and I'm sure you don't either because you will not be sure who will die in the process, your loved ones or your neighbours? unless you are out of the country before that happens. I too am of the opinion that getting rid of baathism aka the current president in Syria is not an option because there is even less of an opposition party locally there, and I don't know if our US readers value the life of Syrians or Egyptians as much as we would. So it is not that simple I'm afraid. OK sorry if this was too long, maybe I should have just blogged it, you may certainly delete it if you wish, but I do hope your readers get a multi-faceted view of the situation.
It's only the BBC but here is a concise chronology of events in Lebanon. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles/819200.stm
Highlander
http://tinyurl.com/4wqm9
A link to "Not A Fish" blog. This post made me sad and hopeful at the same time. Also makes you think about how decisions made by just a few leaders can change the fate and destiny of millions of people for better and worse, and alter the geography of a region and a country.
Highlander,
There is a need for unity and security in Lebanon. I don't think that Lebanon is ready to secure it's land. The presence of Syria is a kind of important to avoid Israel aggression.
We all know Israel intention when it comes to Syria and Lebanon.
The unity between Syria and Lebanon will give Israel and the United States the bootie.
Hey Highlander,
I was a little confused by your comments, cause i couldn't figure out what the aim of them was. I wrote 2 posts, one about Harriri's death and one about the escalating situation in Lebanon. I have been accused of writing too longwinded of posts so i try to keep things short and sweet. If i get the comments correctly, you agree with me that the syrians should get out, but ur problem is that i didn;t give my western readers a backrgound history lesson on how the things started and because of that i did...what exactly? Mislead them? Gave them an inaccurate perspective? like did i lie at all in that post? Just wondering!
Like you I don't want them to be there anymore when their job of stabilising Lebanon was done, but each time plans were set to pull out it was the Lebanese democratically elected government who requested they remain, because it was afraid they could not keep the coutry together ( it is a similar situation to what is now happening in Iraq, the US troops can't really pull out because it will descend into hell even more and you are aware of that mush heik?)You make it sound like Syria really wants to leave lebanon but can't because of the volatile situation that involves lots of attacks among the poeple. Wait, no, that's the US in iraq. That used to be Ledbanon like 15 years ago, before things got stabalized. The truth is that they liked staying there. Its economically profitable for them, and it allows them a buffer zone from which they can attack Israel.Most of the poeple in the parliment actually do wnat the syrians out, but they are afraid of them and their intelligence agencies. A good example of that is the story that brought the rift beween harriri and the syrians. You know, when syria pressured the parliment to pass that amendment that changed the lebanese constitution and gave Lahoud another 6 years term. If you wanna read about it go here:
http://www.slate.com/id/2105806/
So as I was saying please give the whole picture don't just say it is Baathism.But it is Baathism. The party in syria is the sister party of that in Iraq man.But whatever..
They may have overstayed but that is no reason for you to want to 'nail a coffin'.Well, a better question would be, why do u mind me wanting a "nail in the coffin" of their stay there? I mean, the civil war has been over for almost 16 years now. People on both sides (christians and muslims) have no intention of ever going back to those days cause it scares the shit out of them.So the civil war will not start again anytime soon. Now, if syria really killed Harriri like i believe and Harriri's family believes and the majority of lebanon also believes, why are u opposed to them paying for it?
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Hey Sandmonkey,
first of all I hope your mum feels better. thanks for replying , obviously my ramblings were way too long and I put in more ideas than necessary. still I'll try to voice points more directly this time:
(1) The Syian army should get out
(2) The Syrian army is keeping the Paletinians in check
(3) Why do you think it has been relatively stable for 16 years? Is it because Hariri re-built dowtown Beirut?
(4) Lebanese people are divided among themselves about the Syrian troop and about Hariri.
(5) The stability in Lebanon is only skin deep (I live there part of the time so I should know something at least) but the inhabitants who have not left are at least willing to get a go at it.
(6) Politics is dirty
(7) I don't like the tone against the Syrians now because it seems like a military strike is in the making. if Syria's Govt is involved in Hariri's death, I don't see that the Syrian people should pay for it.I dread turning Syria into Iraq. So let the Lebanese and Syrians solve their own problems and nail each others coffins or compromise without the international community providing the nails or the hammers too.
(8) I am aware of the Lahoud presidency extension amendement and I don't approve of that. But I don't wanna see Jumblatt or Own again (you should have seen what the atrocities their militias have caused against the Lebanese themselves) but jumblatt is a shrewd politician.
(9) My question to you, when the US has admitted attempting the assasination of some foreign politicians why is it not made to pay for it? I object to the double standards involved. Ok in theory the US got pissed off at Mubarak and targets him. what would be your stand would you wish for payback? what if on the other hand it was Israel who kills Mubarak? or Saudi Arabia or Sudan ? 2 democratic places and 2 undemocratic ones?
I desperately need to understand and learn sandmonkey so please bear with me even though my ideas seem chaotic, I haven't got it all neatly figured like you..I'm in the grey zone
Highlander
Tina, thank you for your care for Egyptians and Syrians, I'm sure you personally do and your fine sons who are sacrificing themselves in Iraq think the same about the Iraqis I'm a bit skeptical about the people in the White House though.
I'm sure you want freedom for the Lebanese & the Syrians, but they have to want it as much as you do and pay for it. Obviously they can't afford to but at the same time they don't want to be paying for somebody elses mistakes or killed by a third party in the process. So they ar relatively pleased with their life at the moment as long as they don't dabble in politics.
I'm sure the Iraqis are grateful for the lessons of freedom your loved ones are teaching them, but maybe the Syrian people do not want that master, let them decide their fate.
You have noticed that Gm and Sandmonkey both managed to say that they would rather keep Mubarak than have freedom because they are not ready for the sacrifice right so it's the same with the Syrians and the Lebanese.
Tina I know you mean well and you just want everybody to enjoy the same freedom that you have,but you are safer in your country while they aren't including GM and Sandmonkey.
I enjoy reading your posts on the Iraqi blogs you come out as very sincere, and I would like to ask you a question do you really care about Hariris death or is it the idea that 'freedom' is coming to the ME that you like?
I am not being sarcastic, English is not my mother tongue so I'm translating my thoughts from Arabic. I am just a frightened kid seeing her nations descending into anarchy
Highlander
I am sorry for your pain Tina, and I fully understand it. Coming from the Arab/ME world myself I can assure you I've had my share as well. Hariri was not the only victim others died/were injured with him and I did say on my blog that I was very angry as I could not understand why? However I still don't see that as an excuse to make the Syrian population pay for his death if it turns out that its govt had a hand in that.This is my message. Hizbollah thinks it has a legitimate reason for targetting Israel let them have their war, you are aware that the Hizbollah men in Lebanon are Lebanese? And most Lebanese think they [hizbolah]are heros for driving out the Israelis.People are actually proud of them, because they built schools and hospitals, and universities and charity system -just like Hariri did by the way, in an area of Lebanon where the Lebanese governement does not even want to go or care. That for sure is not Syrian money Tina, because Syria cannot afford that kind of price though it may give some arms.My objection was that the blood was not even dry and yet everybody was already speculating & upping the ante. Take a pause and look back and reflect what was the main issue a couple of days ago? Iran nuclear reactor, who has also been called a terrorism sponsor and has special ties with Hizbollah ? Iran . Mrs.Rice said that Iran was not on the agenda at the moment but things seemed to heat up 2 days ago. Who is on the agenda now ? Syria
I'm not into conspiracy theories but you can look at the issue in many ways.The most obvious guilty entity is Syria, but what if it is innocent? Nevertheless I don't want the Iranian people as well to be punished for something they could not prevent either. I am aware not all westerners are ignorant of international affairs but, we are the ones who live on this land and our people interact with each other and speak basically the same language and have more or less the same heritage. I really wish that Syria would just pull those troops and not give anybody the chance to do something against it, but that in the Arab wolrd gives a different kind of message, that it is not only weak militarily ( which it is by the way) but that it's government is and maybe they don't want to convey this image. As I said politics is dirty and Arab politics is something incomprehensible at times you have to use mirrors and guides and you would still get lost. Never look for the obvious clue, you need to turn a few other stones.
I am sorry for your pain Tina, and I fully understand it. Coming from the Arab/ME world myself I can assure you I've had my share as well. Hariri was not the only victim others died/were injured with him and I did say on my blog that I was very angry as I could not understand why? However I still don't see that as an excuse to make the Syrian population pay for his death if it turns out that its govt had a hand in that.This is my message. Hizbollah thinks it has a legitimate reason for targetting Israel let them have their war, you are aware that the Hizbollah men in Lebanon are Lebanese? And most Lebanese think they [hizbolah]are heros for driving out the Israelis.People are actually proud of them, because they built schools and hospitals, and universities and charity system -just like Hariri did by the way, in an area of Lebanon where the Lebanese governement does not even want to go or care. That for sure is not Syrian money Tina, because Syria cannot afford that kind of price though it may give some arms.My objection was that the blood was not even dry and yet everybody was already speculating & upping the ante. Take a pause and look back and reflect what was the main issue a couple of days ago? Iran nuclear reactor, who has also been called a terrorism sponsor and has special ties with Hizbollah ? Iran . Mrs.Rice said that Iran was not on the agenda at the moment but things seemed to heat up 2 days ago. Who is on the agenda now ? Syria
I'm not into conspiracy theories but you can look at the issue in many ways.The most obvious guilty entity is Syria, but what if it is innocent? Nevertheless I don't want the Iranian people as well to be punished for something they could not prevent either. I am aware not all westerners are ignorant of international affairs but, we are the ones who live on this land and our people interact with each other and speak basically the same language and have more or less the same heritage. I really wish that Syria would just pull those troops and not give anybody the chance to do something against it, but that in the Arab wolrd gives a different kind of message, that it is not only weak militarily ( which it is by the way) but that it's government is and maybe they don't want to convey this image. As I said politics is dirty and Arab politics is something incomprehensible at times you have to use mirrors and guides and you would still get lost. Never look for the obvious clue, you need to turn a few other stones.Highlander
apologies for the double post sandmonkey pls delete the extra one , I have a problem with my connection
Highlander
Tina we are still in agreement, there are 2 sides to a coin, and in Lebanon, Hizbollah is seen as charitable that is what I am trying to convey. Just like Hariri was very charitable but they were many of his compatriots who did not like the way he was selling the country to raise capital.
I have not forgotten the purple fingers and they make me feel proud because the Iraqi people have actually managed to get their own agenda on the table, not that of the 'insurgents' nor that of the US.
What I'm afraid for the people in Syria is that by your request to free them many will needlessly die just like in Iraq, that is what I cannot bear, if in order for them to be free they have to endure B52 and all sorts of humiliations then that is what I fear. I'm a praying that Assad will be as cunning as his dad and not give anyone a chance to ruin the country even if it means losing face politically. But losing face politically means allowing the US to dictate even more to whoever it sees fit to do in the Middle-East. It's a loose-loose situation unless Syria had nuclear weapons then no one would have dared to threaten her.
Tina yes what kind of people stuff a car full of explosives and kill? Actually ordinary people, Hizbollah or others have not invented it they took the blue print from the Israelis when an Israeli truck-bomb blew up King David Hotel in Jerusalem killing 88 in 1946. There are bad people on all sides.
With regards to Aljazeera I think it is very very pro-US so I take my news with a pinch of salt, we have alternative coverage.
There are about 300,000 thousand Iraqis who have flown to Syria, how do you know which one is the bad baathist from the baathist that had to register in the party just because this way he could keep his job? Actually after Iraq's liberation Syria and Jordan are the only countries who accept Iraqis without visas, everybody else in the world had closed its doors. I admire your drive towads freedom and your encouragements to the Arab people regardless of their current nationality and religion. Middle-East is so messed up you can't talk of something without ending up in another story it all leads back to the central question Palestine and I did not want to get into that because it is a subject which drains you. Hizbollah teaching the kids to hate? well while I am totally against it but I can see their point if you were once under the Israeli boot and knife you try not to get into that position again, rememember that the Israeli army had done what it pleased in Lebanon and only hizbollah was able to drive it away and end that occupation.
You're correct , war with the US is not like old war, it's just nintendo now, no chance to show bravery but only push a button to a precision guided weapon. The soldier does not even see who he/she killed.Who wants to be collateral damage? we've seen the precision...I wish it was like old war at least the other side would have a 50/50 chance , if he was couragous, agile,strong and lucky and the face of the opponent would be seen. notice your closing sentence Tina, 'we will win' , not the Lebanese will win, nor the Syrian will win, but 'we'. What could that mean? we= Tina, we = country X ( presumably yours), or we= fellow bloggers, or we= concerned humanists united in the world? Thank you for a stimulating conversation LIKE YOU I AM WORRIED AT WILL HAPPEN
Thanks for replying Tina, that was a lovely example about the Iraqi farmer.
As for what I said about Hizbollah, I conveyed to you my impressions of what I heard in Lebanon when I lived there. I do realise that the Israelis left because the US ordered them to, but you have to give the folks their dreams don't you and in Lebanon the general populace thinks it is hizbollah, so why denigrate the people? Apart from charity Hizbollah did involve themselves in the social structure and have helped the farmers, and the students and the women and the men many others things in rebuilding the south of Lebanon not just dowtown Beirut. I wish you would not mix the cards. We are talking about Lebanon- hizbollah, not the jihadis in Iraq who have not done a thing. Yes Tina i know the US has a precedence of helping and always leaving eventually...but the Syrians are not the cause of 9/11. If anyone must be nailed for 9/11 it's the Saudi connection and some Egyptians.
This was Hariri who got killed not an American, and lest we forget it is not proved that Syria is the guilty party, but already events are spiralling madly, and the rhetoric back and forth is scary. Look at me and you, you have already pronounced the death sentence on Syria. I assume you are an ordinary person just like me who wished to know more. Why do you judge so swiftly and make sweeping statements. As I said the ME is so strange, that you and me start a conversation about Lebanon and end up with 9/11, and Iraqi farmers and US soldiers always leaving. Do the Syrians want the US soldiers coming in the first place? they don't have a choice do they ? you cannot by a magic brush ask the ME people to stop looking at the past, the past is always staring them in the face it is what brought them to the edge of the inferno in the first place....Syria now is at the right place at the right time to be hanged, it could not have happened better..who benefits in the end?..when we can answer that we will have Hariri's murderer; which is the original goal of all this converstation..Hat tip Tina you are a true humanist, I wish there were more like you. Highlander
Thank you to both of you for having a real discussion instead of a mud slinging fest. The comments posted over at ITM in the evening just aren't worth reading anymore.
Anonymous 6.13PM
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