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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Thursday, February 16, 2006

On (some) women's rights

Ok, this is weird. It seems that egyptian women have more legal rights than their jordanian and lebanese counterparts, at least when it comes to passing on their nationality. It might have only changed in the past 3 years or so, but up until then the kids of egyptian women and foreign men did not get the egyptian passport. The rationale went like this: Only the men can give their kids the egyptian citizenship, because...ehhh.....welll......ok, fine, we are sexist! Happy now? Thankfully this horrendous mistake has been remedied and now both egyptian men and women can give the very prestigious egyptian nationality to their children. Good for them. But here is the weird thing: The Women in Lebanon and Jordan, both of which are more progressive and liberal countries compared to Egypt, do not have that right until now. There are current campaigns to give them the ability to pass down their nationality to their children, but still no success. The issue there seems to be that there are too many palestinain refugees living there, and if one of them marries one of the women, their kids would get the nationality, and we can't have that now, can we? At least they have a better reason than just being plain sexist like we were, but that reason is bullshit (the children of Jordanian males married to palestinain refugee women get the citizenship) and this still sucks. Women in arab countries will never hold big political or influential positions, will never get to run the countries and are treated more or less as sex objects and trophy wives. Fine, whatever, but at least treat them like equal citizens when it comes to giving their nationality to their children. That's the least you could do!

66 Comments:

At 2/16/2006 11:44:00 AM, Anonymous Angie said...

Sandy,

But are they AWARE that this has serious long-term consequences?

This could totally fuck-up Jordan's and Lebanon's illustrious medal standings at the Olympic Games.

 
At 2/16/2006 11:52:00 AM, Anonymous Angie said...

I've been reading Arab blogs for about 4 months now. I'm still not really sure what the great plague is, that Muslim's are afraid will descend from the heavens if women should be given a handful of civil rights.

Are they afraid the worst will happen as we have it in the West? Like, how women drive and earn about half the families income and still have to do all the cooking, cleaning and child-rearing?

Just kidding...our Western guys are getting pretty good at sharing the burdens.


We joke about each other, but we love our Western guys.

 
At 2/16/2006 12:21:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

You failed to mention SM that according to the new law in Egypt, which would allow the children to get the mother's citizenship if the father is non egyptian, there's one exception, if the father is palestinian and the mother's egyptian the children won't be granted citizenship.

 
At 2/16/2006 12:22:00 PM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

Really?

I did not know that. Begad? Are you sure about this?

wow

so what now? we are not sexist but we are prejudiced?

That's sooo much better!

Those fuckheads!

 
At 2/16/2006 12:23:00 PM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

I guess they want all the women who have kids men gawazat el mot3ah ma3a el 3arab to get their kdis citizenship. But Palestinians? Noooooo. Screw em. We will recognize them when they get a country.

fuckin A!

 
At 2/16/2006 12:26:00 PM, Anonymous Cosmic Duck said...

The citizenship problem is presumably a part of a larger problem concerning women's rights.

When we criticize this - and I agree with Angie - we are told by muslims that we don't understand the role of women in islam. It is supposed to be based on a deep respect for women. In the West the women are often treated as sex objects, indeed outright human trash for instance in prostitution. When you limit sexual relationships to marriage, women are no longer sex objects, the argument goes. They can find the peace and quiet to go to work and work together with men without having the sexual thing constantly in mind. The woman doesn't have to ask the question: Did I get the job because of my good looks?

On the other hand, to me it sounds strange that women - like in Saudi Arabia - do not drive cars. You find very few women in politics and the better paying jobs in business. Why not?

I think social position and access to education, good jobs, economic opportunity, and power, should not be a question of gender. And men and women ought to share responsibilities equally in the home and in upbringing of kids. It's a pity for many men that there is too much distance between them and the kids. Then you develop the cool, detached macho man, who is mostly interested in a career, and not in the love and comfort that you find in a well-functioning family.

In Europe hijab and Jilbab are dealt with very differently in different countries. The French have prohibited "religious headgear" (not only against muslims) in public places. In Denmark it is allowed. In England a muslim girl has just won the right in court to wear hijab.

Is hijab discriminatory against women?

Good question. When you consult the United Nations Development program (UNDP) Human Development Report you'll see that ME countries score quite low in the gender equality comparison, and this is considered a problem for economic and social development.

 
At 2/16/2006 12:56:00 PM, Anonymous ccn said...

again I must laugh
Libaneses, jordanians and Egyptian government does not want he palestinians to get citicensship?
And we (Danmark) give it to palestinians all the time (in return we give them the freedom to make their own: hitz bull terrier (i dont know howto spell it, but I think you know which one im referring to)
AND WE ARE THE BAD GUYS, this just keeps getting better and better, the more I read from you guys.

 
At 2/16/2006 12:59:00 PM, Anonymous Angie said...

Thanks for clarifying things a bit Duck.

I wish conservative Muslims would realize that most of us women do not consider the worst thing that could happen to us is that men may look at us and desire us. That can actually be quite fun sometimes.

And I think I'm being honest by saying that a good deal of a women's power can come from that in the work place. And not necessarily in the frame of having men panting after our bodies, but simply in the frame of enjoying not having to spend all their time with a bunch of guys they wouldn't want to watch a football game with.

Some of the worst things that we women have to deal with are of course, the rare brutality, the diminunization of our talents, skills, ideas etc.,being dismissed, ignored, being transparent. Which still can happen in Western society, but when compared with Saudi society the contrast is like trying to live the world according to Sarte's "No Exit".

 
At 2/16/2006 01:12:00 PM, Anonymous ccn said...

It abit of topic but I just have to ask
I was in egypt a few weeks ago, and due to a funny misunderstanding from both parts I came to shake hands with one of the chefs (cooks)
and he laughed...
next day he came up to me in the restaurant very polite, with one of his colleagues, and his colleague wanted me to shake his hand, and they both laughed very much (in a nice way though), but can anyone hear tell me why these guys laughed at this?

 
At 2/16/2006 01:21:00 PM, Anonymous Aslan said...

Hey! I just looked at my watch and it's twothousand friggin six!

And this gender bias still exists?

That's it, I'm calling Condi to see if she'll reconsider running for pres in 2008.

 
At 2/16/2006 01:28:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

It's true man, here's the conditions to be eligible, they're beyond draconian.
"Numerous Conditions Apply
A few days after the president's announcement General Hamdi Hafez, the head of the Department of Passports and Immigration, announced that children of Egyptian mothers who seek citizenship must be over 21, be gainfully employed, have proof of 10 years' continuous residence in Egypt, have a clean criminal record and not be handicapped. Palestinians are excluded even from these strict conditions by a 1959 agreement made by the Arab world not to give Palestinians citizenship in order to preserve their national identity."
See, we're not that bad, we're not discriminating against them, we're just helping them to preserve their national identity by making their life a little bit harder, also the part about the handicapped is a little bit baffling, I've never thought of egypt as a darwinian fascist country with a survival of the fittest hitler youth menatlity.
Here's a link,
http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/sovereign/citizen/2003/1103egyptwomen.htm

 
At 2/16/2006 01:41:00 PM, Anonymous blower said...

CCN,

Don't be so much blower! Thank you for giving SOME palestinians the nationality, but Jordan (I don't know about Lebanon) gave its nationality to thousands of palestinians befor you do and it still have many refugees on its territory (total more than 3 Millions). Also, palestinians are enjoying thier rights in Jordan as Jordanians (with some exceptions that exist everywhere). So don't be naive in your judgement!

I think however the governments might have took such decisions to protect its social integrity (I disagree with this yet).

 
At 2/16/2006 01:51:00 PM, Anonymous ccn said...

to Mohamed
oohhh then it makes sense again, we are the bad guys because we grant them citicenships and by that erase the palestenians as a people. for a brief moment I felt out of caracter

 
At 2/16/2006 01:58:00 PM, Anonymous jokerman said...

It is not sexist,its more close to the way that the patriarchical societies work in the Middle East.
Everything is up to the Village elder, the father, the elder brother, thats how that sort of society works & women are to obey.
Hence why the male gets twice as a female rule is still active till today.
But thats good they have decided to acknowledge other kids, it seems to me that egyptians want pure blood all the time, mixed kids are not allowed to enter thepolice forces or army or the foregin office lest they give away vial secrets, as if the powers that seek dont know them already!!!
next thing is to remove obstacles from mixed & double nationality kids from those places.

 
At 2/16/2006 02:08:00 PM, Blogger gatorbait said...

I think the Moroccans already have this in place.

 
At 2/16/2006 02:16:00 PM, Anonymous Angie said...

I'm not sure Jokerman, are you saying the status quo is good then because it's traditional?

I'm sure there are some good things that come from remaining within the traditional structure, solid family and tribe connections I'm sure.

But I have to think about how we view children in the US. They're, of course, completely dependant upon us, for the most part, own no property separately from the family, have no voting rights, decision making rights, legal rights to autonomy etc.

So how do we really view children? As being incomplete humans, small weak, incapable, incompetent, perhaps even stupid.

Why would you view women in the ME who live under the same conditional restrictions any differently? How would you really value her? Would you not tend to see her as a large child in a way?

It reminds me of this time I was dating this guy in college. Really, the most beautiful human I'd ever seen. But stupid as a sheep. He had this really young brother about 5 years old.

I was talking to him one night, you know...big girl talking to the little boy stuff. He smiled very little, looks up at me with this really earnest face and says, "You're a pretty, intelligent girl, why would you date a clown like my brother?"

To say I underestimated him because he was a child is a joke...

 
At 2/16/2006 02:19:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Sam,
Please check out Solomon's post here. This is simply disgusting and sad.

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/007771.shtml

Mike

 
At 2/16/2006 02:45:00 PM, Anonymous Honey Breel said...

just thought id boost your ego that norwegian newspapers are also refering to you.

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/02/10/457379.html

good going.

 
At 2/16/2006 02:57:00 PM, Anonymous ccn said...

to blower
this makes more sense, if they are given the same rights, but their nationality is preserved, that makes a certain sense,if this is what the palestinians wants.
Idealy this should be optional, is that the case, then I am actually impressed by this solution.
But that was not the impression i was first given in the former postings

 
At 2/16/2006 03:09:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

Outside the neocon parallel universe

"Rights" of chosen people:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=681035

 
At 2/16/2006 03:51:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

democracy for palestine, are you TRYING to make every on earth hate palestinians?

You just sen me a link that tried to print a piece of propaganda on my printer.

Be advised, folks... unless you want anti-Israeli propoaganda being spooled out on the corporate printer, under your name, don't load this asshat's link.

You really doing a good job there promoting your cause, jerkoff.

 
At 2/16/2006 04:15:00 PM, Blogger pelyas said...

Mohammed- are you serious? They don't give citizenship to HANDICAPPED people? That's repulsive. I don't mind not giving Pali's citizenship though- they haven't done much good for Egypt.

 
At 2/16/2006 04:36:00 PM, Blogger Blogspat said...

democracy for palestine,

Valid comment regarding the mentioned law - and delivered with a bit of ironic humor.

I remember discussions in Scandinavia on the topic of but must admit I've not followed up on the effects. Amnestesty also pushed the issue if remember correctly. Can you provide an update?

Too bad the Arab nations won't be able to push that issue and it has been left to other countries...

Regarding the comments on freedoom of speech in the linked text. Quite right - there was no reason for the newspaper to depicture the prophet - at least not in a negative way - even though they could which also SM has stated several times in his blog. Question then arises - you have a lot of negative statements towards Jews in your comments. It is your right I guess - but I don't understand what it helps your point, so I don't understand why? But then again you perhaps are no better than the publisher og JP?

 
At 2/16/2006 04:39:00 PM, Blogger Blogspat said...

*topic of the diriminating law from 2003

 
At 2/16/2006 04:41:00 PM, Blogger Suzanne said...

democracy for palestin,

right back at ya:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/682921.html

 
At 2/16/2006 05:14:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> You just sen me a link that tried to print a piece of propaganda on my printer.

It's not "propaganda", but an article of Tom Segev from h'aaretz
about the inharent fascism of a "jewish" "democracy" in an arab
country.

And - I'm not resonsible for your browser setup.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Palestinians are excluded even from these strict conditions by a 1959 agreement made by the Arab world not to give Palestinians citizenship in order to preserve their national identity

They don't want to preserve national identity as much as they want to preserve the refugee camps as a breeding ground for terrorism. The Arab world CHOSE to keep the Palestinians as a stateless underclass to have a long-lasting source of cannon fodder.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:18:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> I don't mind not giving Pali's citizenship though- they haven't
> done much good for Egypt.

Really?

As far as I remember egypt sold the Palestinians to Israel
for appr. 2.000.000.000 $ per year.
You should love the Palestinians...

 
At 2/16/2006 05:19:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> The Arab world CHOSE to keep the Palestinians as a stateless underclass

No, antisemites, biblical zionists and the chosen
people decided that.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:32:00 PM, Blogger elengil said...

Arabs chose to reject the UN resolution that would have given the Palestinians their *COUGH*SECOND*COUGH* state in 1947.

Arabs chose to reject that, Not Israel.


Arabs chose NOT to give the Palestinains a state in the West Bank and Gaza for the 19 years that Jordan and Egypt held these territories.

Arabs chose not to do this, Not Israel.


Arabs chose, time and again, rather than work in peace with Israel and help the Palestinians towards statehood in the West Bank and Gaza, to instead repeatedly attack Israel.

Arabs chose to demand the UN stop Israel from settling in perminant housing Palestinians who lived in squalid camps because *doh* if Israel helped them out, then there would no longer be an international pity party for the Palestinians.

ARABS CHOSE TO DO THIS TO THE PALESTINIANS.

Israel did not.

By the way, that state of Palestine you're all gung-ho for? Yah, it's called Jordan, created in 1922 on over 80% of the original territory of Palestine under the British Mandate.

It's no accident that Israel and Jordan are the only nations in the middle-east that have grated citizenship to Palestinian Arabs.

It's also no accident that the great Palestinian National Identiy didn't exist before '67.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:33:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> there was no reason for the newspaper to depicture the prophet

I don't care for that destraction - used by racists and war-
mongers in the west and their talebanian friends to stir up
a fake crusade.

Muslims should be outraged about their governments - most of
them western puppets - about their corrupt clerics, about
hebrew fascist thieves and murderers in Palestine and about
the US, that tortures and kills muslims - not only muslims
- for the dollar, the oil and their biblical fantasyworld in
Palestine.

> I guess - but I don't understand what it helps your point,
> so I don't understand why?

I think it's clearer now.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:40:00 PM, Blogger elengil said...

DOP

I think it's clearer now.

Clear as mud.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:40:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> Arabs chose to reject the UN resolution

Correct. They - who exactly? - legitimately refused to accept
a jewish supremacist state in their own country.
They legitimately refused to obey the orders from the colonial
powers at that time.

Arabs generally have the legitimate right to get rid of their
"guests" from europe, other than their "guests" who illegitmately
planned to ethnically cleanse the country right from the start
of their criminal enterprise

See the diaries of Herzl.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:45:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> Arabs chose NOT to give the Palestinains a state in the West Bank
> and Gaza for the 19 years that Jordan and Egypt held these territories.

One more reason for the Palestinians to get rid of their "guests"
- being chosen people, or being their "brothers" from Egypt or Jor-
dan, both bribed by the US.

Remember black September.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:48:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> Arabs chose, time and again, rather than work in peace with Israel
> and help the Palestinians towards statehood in the West Bank and Gaza,

You cannot appease a jewish supremacist ideology, if your are
not jewish. Israel is the negation of Palestine - a genocidal
enterprise.

That's what Tom Segev's article demonstrates.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:51:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> It's also no accident that the great Palestinian
> National Identiy didn't exist before '67.

You make a lot of very interesting statements, on housing,
pal. national identity and else - but they are absolutely
useless to defend the genocidal character of "Israel".

Sorry for you.

 
At 2/16/2006 05:59:00 PM, Blogger elengil said...

Some excerpts on Black September:

But, what's your point, truly? Are you blaming Arafat's attempted coup of Jordan on the US?

Or are you saying that Palestinians, being the underdogs they are, have some right to attack any nation whenever they want for any reason just because they don't have one, thanks to their Arab brothers?

 
At 2/16/2006 06:02:00 PM, Blogger elengil said...

*Smacks forehead on the table*

I fell for it again. You almost had me believing you could be reasoned with.

Silly me.

I forgot, you're one of those people who will refuse to look at any fact that does not outright support their position, regardless of how twisted and constructed that "fact" may be.

Sorry. I'm not one for self-punishment. Argue your blind racism with someone else.

 
At 2/16/2006 06:08:00 PM, Blogger elengil said...

So, Women's rights.

I'm always just a little amused when I hear that it's the West that turns women into sex objects.

Some men think that way, true, but in the West, women are not raped as 'deserving of rape' for accidentally revealing a lock of hair or an inch of skin.

Women are not murdured for being raped as if she had some choice in the matter and willfully chose it, or for somehow encompassing the man's 'honour'.

Women in Arab nations, to me, are more sex objects because men so fear their 'sexuality' that they must lock women away from sight so that no man could possibly be tempted. I like how the man's problem is blamed on the woman. Figures.

In the West, a woman could (theoretically) walk down the street stark naked and if a man rapes her, it's still HIS fault because *he* could not control himself! However, real men still would not rape a woman no matter how much or how little clothing she is wearing because he realizes she is human and equal to him, not some deviant of G-d that must be punished at every turn.

Consider that the Amazon tribes of South America wear little more than a belt of rope around their waists, and yet the men seem perfectly capable of controling their sexual urges and not raping their women left and right merely because they see her body.

Arab men who blame their problems on women need to GROW UP and take responsibility for their own problems.

I am not a sex object. I am not subject to a man's whims. I am an American, dammit.

 
At 2/16/2006 06:16:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Doper,

"And - I'm not resonsible for your browser setup."

You ARE responsible for setting up a link that's pre-configured to print a document though. Jackass.

 
At 2/16/2006 06:19:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I mean really. All of Muslim society seems to be geared to insuring that females do not procreate outside of marriage, and don't marry outside their families' wishes, so what's the big deal? Nice Egyptian families arrange for their daughters to marry nice Egyptian boys and have nice inbred Egyptian babies.

Ignore hybrid vigor, a scientific principal well known to any farmer or rancher, the epitome of which is represented by the likes of Tiger Woods or Colin Powell. Ignore the richness and diversity your immigrants bring to your country. You will pay a price you cannot even comprehend for your homogeneous identity.

Bridget

 
At 2/16/2006 06:22:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Angie,

I echo everything you say about "our guys". American men rock, and I realize that more every day.

Sam, that goes for you, too. You are living proof that hope springs eternal.
Bridget

 
At 2/16/2006 06:31:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Beast from the middle east, so you're telling me that it's ok with
you if a boy or a girl born in egypt to an egyptian mother and knew no other home to be treated as a stranger in his own country, just because you don't like the palestinians, you people are
so cruel.
Democracy for palestine, I think that I totally empathize with the palestinians' predicament, but your statement about egypt selling palestine for 2 billion dollars a year, is so unfair and ungrateful and it's people like you who make SM and seneferu and beast from the me have no problem with hating you so easily, not because your statement is insulting or that
it would hurt my "national pride", I seriously don't care, insult as much you want. My problem is that thousands and thousands of
poor young egyptians who had their
whole lives in front of them
were sent to their
deaths in war after war to liberate palestine, those guys didn't expect any thanks or feelings of gratitude from your likes, but never in their wildest dreams did they expect such ingratitude. So tell me big mouth, how did egypt sell palestine? By taking back it's land and realizing the futility of wars?
Do you think you idiot that Sadat signed the peace treaty because of the 2 billion dollars? Didn't he invite your clown Arafat to the mena house talks in 78? Just to be
called
everyname in the dictionary?
Well you know what?screw you, the palestinians I know are way better than you.
Craig, the anger tone in your comment was hilarious, seems he got you really angry, hope you didn't get in trouble :), thanks for the warning, I'll print it at home :), the strange thing is that Haaretz is usually really reasonable, some of their writers have the highest levels of
integrity and fairness
in their reporting.
Again, screw both of you demo for palestine and beast from the me.

 
At 2/16/2006 07:03:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> Are you blaming Arafat's attempted coup of Jordan on the US?

Confused?

> that Palestinians, being the underdogs they are, have some
> right to attack any nation whenever they want for any reason
> just because they don't have one

How comes you don't see, that this rant applies much more on
the chosen people, than on the native Palestinians?

 
At 2/16/2006 07:05:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> I forgot, you're one of those people who will refuse to look
> at any fact that does not outright support their position,
> regardless of how twisted and constructed that "fact" may be.

It's not possible to "reason" about ethnic cleansing, unless
you agree with the underlying fascist ideology.

 
At 2/16/2006 07:08:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> I am not a sex object. I am not subject to a man's whims.
> I am an American, dammit.

That explains a lot.

 
At 2/16/2006 07:09:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

Sorry, that I could not resist.

And - you are really very pathetic...

 
At 2/16/2006 07:11:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> You ARE responsible for setting up a link that's
> pre-configured to print a document though. Jackass.

What is "Jackass"?

It's your name, Mr. Jackass?

Cute - and how smart.

 
At 2/16/2006 07:12:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

And, dear Mr. Jackass,

Tom Segev is jewish, like the Ha'aretz.

So - are you antisemite then?

 
At 2/16/2006 07:33:00 PM, Anonymous democracy for palestine said...

> but your statement about egypt selling palestine for 2 billion dollars
> a year, is so unfair and ungrateful ..

It's the reality.

Egypts corrupt rulers sold the Palestinians to the ZOG for the Sinai
and 2 billion dollars annually.

> have no problem with hating you so easily, not because your statement
> is insulting or that it would hurt my "national pride"

No question of "pride". The US offered more money than the Russians -
the Russians did had any money -, so Sadat accepted their offer.

It's business.

> My problem is that thousands and thousands of poor young egyptians
> who had their whole lives in front of them were sent to their deaths
> in war after war to liberate palestine

The idea - of your government - was not to "liberate" it, but to annex
it. Ask the Palestinians about their experience with the egypt or the
jordan rule.
And - the Jordans were traitors right from the start ...

> those guys didn't expect any thanks or feelings of gratitude from your
> likes

Pal. are not my "likes", although it's always funny to be considered as
being palestinian.

> So tell me big mouth, how did egypt sell palestine? By taking back
> it's land and realizing the futility of wars? Do you think you idiot
> that Sadat signed the peace treaty because of the 2 billion dollars?

Yes, plus the Sinai. It's more than obvious - facts.

> Didn't he invite your clown Arafat to the mena house talks in 78? Just
> to be called everyname in the dictionary?

A demonstration to impress pan-arabists.

> Well you know what?screw you, the palestinians I know are way better
> than you.

Which ones? Dahlan or Abbas, puppets of the CIA or Israel?

> Craig, the anger tone in your comment was hilarious, seems he got you
> really angry, hope you didn't get in trouble :), thanks for the warning,
> I'll print it at home :)

In trouble for what?

> the strange thing is that Haaretz is usually really reasonable, some
> of their writers have the highest levels of integrity and fairness
> in their reporting.

Troubles who?

> Again, screw both of you demo for palestine and beast from the me.

Yeah, democracy is the last thing we will see in Egypt, but especially
not in the chosen peoples country.

 
At 2/16/2006 07:47:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sandmonkey, I love your blog, it gives me hope that there is someone worth talking to on the other side.

DFP, of course zionism is fascist, therefore we should just curl up and die. Or perhaps we should just pay National Insurance money to Martyrs and their families.

Yes, its fine for Egypt and other Arab countries to discriminate against Palestinians, but when Israel does it, we are fascists. If we are such genocidal fascists, why are there more palestinians now than there were 20 years ago, and why are they so interested in being on our side of the 'apartheid fence'?

Aryeh (a Jerusalemite).

 
At 2/16/2006 08:48:00 PM, Blogger elengil said...

democracy for palestine said...

Sorry, that I could not resist.

And - you are really very pathetic...


Not so pathetic as to resort to calling you names in lieu of actual constructive debate.

 
At 2/16/2006 10:36:00 PM, Anonymous Alsan said...

democracy for palestine said all of these things.
===
> I am not a sex object. I am not subject to a man's whims.
> I am an American, dammit.

That explains a lot.

At 7:09 PM, democracy for palestine said...
Sorry, that I could not resist.

And - you are really very pathetic...

No question of "pride". The US offered more money than the Russians -
the Russians did had any money -, so Sadat accepted their offer.

It's business.

Pal. are not my "likes", although it's always funny to be considered as being palestinian.
===

And I will say:
If you are not from Palestine, perhaps it would further their cause if you said no more.

I was actually kind of rooting for them to pull it together and build a nation peacefully. Despite the fact that they destroyed the greenhouses that could feed them, I had hopes they could figure it out.

If you speak for Palestine, then you’ve made me an official bigot. Thanks so VERY much.

 
At 2/17/2006 01:37:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

SM,

This question in Lebanon is ultimately linked to the religious make-up of the society; it's not really about them being palestinian. In fact christian palestinians all received citizenships in the 50's and 60's. You should know that the issue of sectarian balance is very delicate in Lebanon, and just like christians do not like to see palestinians (or children from palestinian fathers) getting the lebanese citizenship for fear of muslims skewing the balance largely towards them (muslims), muslims also refuse the participation of lebanese expats in parliamentary elections because most expats are christians. To a secular westerner this sounds exotically twisted, but people in the ME are still very attached to their religion, in fact it is almost a tribal attachement more than a spiritual one. People always use Lebanon as an example of secterianism and religious tribalism but the fact is this is present in all arab societies. It's only more visible in Lebanon because each of the three big sects (sunnis, shiites and christians) are roughly the same size and the system is more transparent, while in other countries (like Egypt for example) you have a clear majority that opresses the minority and this opression is hidden from the view of outside observers by an even more opressive regime. With all these problems of our own, it's so sad that most arabs cannot see but the trouble caused by the "evil west" targetting the "arab and muslim nation".

 
At 2/17/2006 01:38:00 AM, Blogger Blogspat said...

DFP,

I am actually starting to wonder just exactly which planet you are from?!

You say there is no other solution to the Palestine problem than driving the Israelies into the sea. Well who is it that actually has a genocide ideology?!

.. And remember that the noble Koran actually states that even Jews and Christians will be saved a judgement day. Allah is that great.

 
At 2/17/2006 02:05:00 AM, Blogger Lulwa said...

I must point out that there are some issues that are being confussed, one person commented : "On the other hand, to me it sounds strange that women - like in Saudi Arabia - do not drive cars. You find very few women in politics and the better paying jobs in business" Please lets get our facts straight in Saudi Arabia, women do not drive, but they hold very hugh positions in the business world, they run companies, they are making head way in politics also, saudi now has a government union for business women, this is amazing for a country that only a few MONTHS ago didn't allow women any access to the people in power. I knw that progress is slow, but please let us not forget that there have been huge things changing and we can't disregard that. I am not saying that women in the arab world do not have a LONG way to go yet, but its happening with the concentrated effort of the women of these countries.

 
At 2/17/2006 02:31:00 AM, Blogger Suzanne said...

DOP,

where were Jews driven out from in the first place?
If you are even able to answer this question, how on earth are you still able to entitle Jews as guests in Israel?

 
At 2/17/2006 03:37:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Democracy for palestine
you are full of rubbish, why dont you just shut up? who cares about palestine & democracy there, what democracy are you dreaming of??

Angie, NO, i didnt say its better now as it is, i just said that to change more of these laws is needed, to alter their narrow view of the mixed children, as potential spies, thats what i meant.

 
At 2/17/2006 04:08:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

lulwa, women in saudi can;t even drive, let alone vote. I am glad that saudi is joining the 20th century now, but seriously, we are in the year 2006. For there to be a country that denies the women the right to vote, let alone the right to drive, well, ehh, do I need to finish that sentence for you to get what I mean?

so excuse me if I am not impressed that they have business union elections that included women. Woopdee freakin doo. I mean when I heard the new king saying that "one day, saudi women will drive" I didn;t know whether to laugh or cry.

 
At 2/17/2006 04:55:00 AM, Blogger Blogspat said...

Ohh guys.. I just realized. DFP must be part of the zionist establishment trying to miscredit the Palestinians through inverse psychology! Man they are devious!!

 
At 2/17/2006 04:59:00 AM, Blogger Suzanne said...

@Sandmonkey, they have a female pilot though :) She was laughing about it: us Saudi women cannot drive a car, but fly a plane.
;)

 
At 2/17/2006 06:36:00 AM, Anonymous Don Cox said...

"who cares about palestine & democracy there,"____We should all care. Every country should be free and democratic. However, Palestine does have democracy. They have just had a free election, which was won by Hamas. Hopefully they will have more free and uncorrupt elections in the future. If some other countries do not like the foreign policy of the new Palestine government, that is too bad: it is what the voters voted for. If they find that this foreign policy has bad results, they may (or may not) vote for a different party next time.

 
At 2/17/2006 06:36:00 AM, Anonymous Angie said...

Thank you Bridget,

I'm glad to see you've joined me here, and in giving our American guys applause.

And you too Sandmonkey (please don't change your name, it's too lovable). You're one of the funniest, most enlightened bloggers I've seen and I appreciate your letting me post on your blog!

 
At 2/17/2006 02:35:00 PM, Blogger elengil said...

Don Cox said:
However, Palestine does have democracy. They have just had a free election, which was won by Hamas.

Actually... the Palestinians (there *is* no state of Palestine) just had democratic elections. That is different than having *a* democracy.

A democracy is not made by having an election that brings leaders to power, rather a democracy is made once those leaders are in power and act in a democratic way.

 
At 2/17/2006 03:55:00 PM, Anonymous jokerman said...

Doncox, you forgot that palestinians are not like your average western people. They are uneducated, filled with hate & prejudism, they also democratically send their kids to get blown up to go to heaven & celebrate whenever Israelis, jews & other faith followers are blown up. This is what you call democractic elections?? just because they had a poll doesnt mean its democracy or they respect it. so again, who cares for democracy there? By the way things are, they have another 120 years to deliberate it.

 
At 4/08/2006 08:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOOK!! LOOK!! WHAT THE BIBLE OR TORAH SAYS

ABUSE OF WOMEN, WOMAN'S INFERIORITY
The Bible holds women in an inferior position, as property.
See also Prostitution, Polygamy, Abandonment of
Wife

A mother is unclean for twice as long after the birth of a
daughter as after a son (Lev 12).
A woman is "unclean" during her menstrual period and for seven
days afterward, i.e. for approximately half her adult life
(Lev 15:19-28, Ezek 18:6). To purify herself each month she
must make a "sin offering" (Lev 15:29-30).
Only males can enter the covenant, since it requires the rite of
circumcision.
Adam blames Eve for his sin in the Garden (Gen 3:12).
Eve's curse is that Adam shall rule over her (Gen 3:16).
Lot offers his virgin daughters to strangers to do to them
whatever they wish in order to protect his male guests (Gen
19:8).
A wife is listed among her husbands property, after the
house (Ex 20:17, Deut 5:21).
God gives the Israelites rules and regulations for selling their
daughters (but not their sons) into slavery (Ex 21:7-11).
Miriam is made a leper temporarily for speaking against Moses
(Num 12:1-10), but Aaron, who was equally guilty, is not
punished.
Moses enslaves 32,000 virgins (Num 31:18, 35).
Israelites slaughter their fellow Israelites of Jabesh-Gilead to
obtain wives (Judg 21:1-14).
Males of Benjamin are advised to get wives by abducting women of
Shiloh (Judg 21:16-23).
A divorced woman is as unclean as a whore and unsuited as the
wife of a priest (Lev 21:7, Ezek 44:22).
A woman cannot remarry her first husband if she married another
and was widowed or again divorced (Deut 24:1-4).
Rules for taking a captive woman to wife and what to do if you
decide you don't like her after all (Deut 21:10-14).
A rape victim must marry her rapist. The rapist must pay a
penalty to the victim's father, but not to her (Deut 22:28-
29).
If a man has sex with another man's female slave, the slave is to
be scourged, but the man will be forgiven if he offers a ram
as sacrifice (Lev 19:20-22).
A man may divorce his wife, but there is no provision for a wife
to divorce her husband (Deut 24:1, Jer 3:8, Isa 50:1, Matt
19:9, 1 Cor 7:10, Rom 7:2-3).
A man who is suspicious of his wife may require her to undergo
the ordeal of drinking the "bitter water that causeth the
curse," which causes the thigh to rot and the belly to swell
(Num 5:11-31).
The Levite and the Israelite offer to the mob a concubine and a
virgin daughter for the mob to "humble" them and do "what
seemeth good unto [them]." The men in the mob abuse the
concubine all night. The Levite then kills her (or finds
her dead?) and dismembers her body (Judges 19:22-29; this is
a doublet of the story at Gen 19 about Lot).
Saul uses his daughter Michal for his own ends, by giving her to
David "to be a snare to him" (1 Sam 18:21).
Absalom has sex with his father's (David's) concubines to insult
him. David then punishes the concubines by imprisoning them
for life (2 Sam 16:21-22, 20:3).
David purchases Michal from Saul (2 Sam 3:13).
Amnon loves Tamar until he rapes her, then he hates her and casts
her out (2 Sam 13:1-17).
God orders Hosea to purchase a harlot (Hos 1:2, 3:1-2).
God will punish the men by causing their wives to be ravished
(Isa 13:16, Zech 14:2).
The woman is subordinate to the man (Gen 3:6, 1 Cor 11:3-11, Eph
5:22-33, 1 Pet 3:1-6).
Women should cover the head when praying; men should not
do so (1 Cor 11:5).
Women should keep silent in church (1 Cor 14:34).
Woman is "snares and nets, her hands are as bands" (Eccl 7:26-
29).
No woman should have authority over a man (1 Tim 2:12)

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/bible.htm

 

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