Powerplay
Hamas is between a rock and a hard place, and I can't say me is not pleased. Me is mucho pleased. Me does "I am so very mucho pleased" dance while sticking his tongue out. On one hand, the outgoing parliament has voted in more powers to Abbas that will enable him to act as a check and balance to any attempts by Hamas to turn Ghaza into Hamasistan, which rumor has it, they are not very happy about. On the other hand, the US and Isarel are pondering an attempt of "Regime Change" via performing a serious cash squeeze by denying aid to Hamas, which would force them to lay off thousands of government workers and in turn become hugely unpopular amongst the palestinian population. And guess what? Hamas is not pleased about that either! Mushir al Masri, a Hamas spokesman and incoming legislator, said attempts to bring down a future Hamas government were hypocritical.
"This is ... a rejection of the democratic process, which the Americans are calling for day and night," al Masri said. "It's an interference and a collective punishment of our people because they practiced the democratic process in a transparent and honest way."
Nope, this is not that at all. They just don't like you, and they think if they give you money you will use it to buy weapons and wage attacks on them, so why give you any? This is aid money and aid is not an entitlement. End of Story. "We need a firm Islamic and Arabic position to confront this challenge," al Masri added. Sorry dude. We are too busy boycotting Butter and LEGO at the moment. Call back later when there isn't a cartoon crisis going on, will ya?
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 2/14/2006 03:34:00 AM
66 Comments:
From the linked article:
"I wish America would cut off its aid. We do not need this satanic money," Zahar told a conference in Cairo, Egypt.
End quote.
I agree with him.
Sam,
This is not just aid money. Read this.
From the Link above:
------------------------------
The officials said the destabilization plan centers largely on money. The Palestinian Authority has a monthly cash deficit of some $60 million to $70 million after it receives between $50 million and $55 million a month from Israel in taxes and customs duties collected by Israeli officials at the borders but owed to the Palestinians.
------------------------------
If the Americans and Israelis are pondering regime change they are behaving undemocratically. Who has talked about introducing freedom and democracy into the Middle East at alle costs? And when the Arab people then elect their own representatives the Americans back down from their lofty words. Hamas has done a lot of social work in Palestinian areas, and they do not seem to be nearly as corrupt as the previous incumbents. Why not give Hamas a chance? They may be on the American terror lists, but on the other side you'll also find previous terrorists. Why not give Hamas a chance, - continue funding them with development assistance?
hamas might sleep with the US secretly at night & denounce them in the morning, those two will surely waltz & try to milk eachother.
Hamas will definitely take over the PA.
"If the Americans and Israelis are pondering regime change they are behaving undemocratically."
Depends on how the regime change will be accomplished. Not giving people you don't like free money doesn't constitute undemocratic behaviour. In fact, since the money is part of an arrangement which Hamas reject, giving them the money would be undemocratic.
"Who has talked about introducing freedom and democracy into the Middle East at all costs?"
Nobody?
"And when the Arab people then elect their own representatives the Americans back down from their lofty words."
So the Americans promised to finance Hamas' war against Israel if only enough Arabs support them? I don't think so.
"Hamas has done a lot of social work in Palestinian areas, and they do not seem to be nearly as corrupt as the previous incumbents."
True.
"Why not give Hamas a chance? They may be on the American terror lists, but on the other side you'll also find previous terrorists."
Well, a) the other side is not a terrorist organisation and b) why give Hamas a chance?
Hamas want to destroy Israel. Why not give them a chance?
You really cannot think of a single reason?
“Not giving people you don't like free money doesn't constitute undemocratic behaviour. In fact, since the money is part of an arrangement which Hamas reject, giving them the money would be undemocratic”
You cannot make that kind of calculation. It is not that simple. We all have an interest in peace in the Middle East. Hamas is representative of the Palestinian people. So they are among the forces that can help to accomplish peace. They have even proved that they are able teachers, administrators, doctors, nurses, etc. It is necessary to help them because they have been driven off the land they once inhabited by among others – our ancestors. That gives us a kind of responsibility to help.
"Who has talked about introducing freedom and democracy into the Middle East at all costs?"
Bush Junior. So far about 200 billion $ have been spent in Iraq, but not to much avail. It is incredible that American taxpayers will continue financing the carnage. They probably expect a pay off in the long run. After all, it takes some fighting to be able to get the gasoline that enables you to continue driving around in Hummers and other SUVs on American highways.
“the other side is not a terrorist organisation”
True, but they sometimes use state terror to achieve their goals. And some Israeli political leaders have belonged to terror cells that helped in ousting Palestinians from their land.
“Hamas want to destroy Israel”
A stated long run goal in a political platform paper is not necessarily a guide line for policy. The chance to make Hamas change this goal will be more likely if they are given a fair chance for development. In order to achieve that they must receive som help from the West.
How can you state its not a guide line for policy? Why would you even want to help an organisation or government that wants your destruction, Mr Duck?
And furthermore you undermine "aid" which is only voluntarily for the ones giving aid. You make it a necessity.
It has been a spiral of violence so far. You have to break that spiral. Aid is a necessity. You cannot isolate a few million people on the worst land in the area, then build a wall around them and finally expect them to have a chance of survival.
Sorry dearest Duck, but I'll have to agree with Suzanne.
Hamas has played a important role at the terrorism history although they are a huge support to the palestinians in social issues. This sides we can't ever deny. But how would we measure this sides? To me the terrorism counts way more than this social state just because everyone could perform a social program, not terrorism. The slaughter promoted by Hamas must never be disregarded by the world and we must do whatever is possible to keep this kind of people apart from power. I'm not telling that anti-US parties must be wiped from the globe, but only those who promote terrorism and intolerance. See the newest Iranian government... they are legitimated and no one has said a word when Ahmadinejad got the power, but I'm sure the world will do something if this uranium impass stills.
Futhermore, as Suzanne said and just analyzing the recent ground ('cos US and Israel have a huge debt to the palestinians), aid is NOT an obligation... so if they could cut the money has a political measure, let see what happens.
It's quite clear that the world will reject Hamas.
See ya!
Could you imagine what the Paleostainians and Ham-ass could create if they took all the energy they sink into hate and violence and used it for something positive and loving? They could re-created the Garden of Eden.
The suckups claim that Hamas is popular because they deliver welfare services and are not corrupt like Fatah. I say that the only reason why Hamas is not corrupt is that they haven't had a chance until now to grab all they can!
"You cannot make that kind of calculation. It is not that simple. We all have an interest in peace in the Middle East."
That is why we must not give money to those who don't want peace.
"Hamas is representative of the Palestinian people. So they are among the forces that can help to accomplish peace."
They are also the force that don't want to accomplish peace.
"It has been a spiral of violence so far."
No, it hasn't. It's not a spiral. Arabs attacking every few years, trying to throw the Jews into the sea is not a spiral of violence.
There will ONLY be peace when the Arabs give it up. Jordan and Egypt gave it up. The PLO signed a peace treaty too, but didn't understand that starting the second "Intifada" was not a part of it. Now the Arab Palestinians votes for ad party that not only wants to kill individual civilian Jews but also to eradicate Israel.
If you give them money, there will be peace only if the Jews lose.
Of course, money should not be given to Hamas, but to the PA, the Palestinian Authority. But if we are democrats, we must accept who is going to run the show in the PA. As far as I know, the EU has not decided to cut funds to PA. It would be a bad idea. You got to give the Palestinians a chance. There is some argument for supporting the little guy here. Israel and the US have firepower enough to send the Palestinians to the moon. Better help them before that happens. But of course, we should try to get them away from terrorist methods. But likewise should the Israelis be steered away from such methods. I have just seen Spielberg's film Munich, and it was not all pleasantries that were served about the Israelis in that film. If Spielberg is right both parts in the conflict must take their share of the blame for the escalating violence. The European Union spends more than half a billion dollars annually in aid to the PA. That money stream should continue running - as long as it does not run down into corrupt coffers
"But if we are democrats, we must accept who is going to run the show in the PA. As far as I know, the EU has not decided to cut funds to PA. It would be a bad idea. You got to give the Palestinians a chance. There is some argument for supporting the little guy here."
The Arab Palestinians had dozens of chances. They decided to vote for war. Why is that so difficult to understand? They don't deserve a chance to win the war they just voted for.
I am all for supporting the little guy, but if the EU and US are neutral observers who might support either side, then Israel is certainly the little guy.
You cannot just tell us that the Arabs deserve one chance after another, even if they keep rejecting peace every single time.
Hamas is just getting a long overdue lesson in consequences. You bite the hand that feeds you, and you might find yourself starving some day.
I for one am delighted to hear that those fellows' leisure time is about to be cut back...high time they figure out how to earn a living.
Bridget
"But if we are democrats, we must accept who is going to run the show in the PA."
I do accept them, just don't like them and not willing to finance them.
Bridget
Uh, folks, just a little background, here.
Even if the Bush administration wants to continue aid to the Palestinian people, it will have real difficulty. There is a law in the US that forbids giving money to terrorist organizations, and various Democrats (the party not in power, but not that far out of it, there is an election coming) have already said they intend to see it enforced.
The election of Hamas and the Cartoon Wars have not played well with the American public. So far, a Gallup poll has shown that US public opinion has turned sharply against Palestinians because of the election win by Hamas. In my view, the election turned on local issues (corruption, services) and not on the question of what to do about Israel, because there was no discussion about that issue. Mine is not the prevailing view, which is that the voters in Palestine have shown that they choose violence, and the American voters are unwilling to fund more violence.
So far, I've seen no polls about what the Cartoon Wars have done to the reputation of Middle Easterners and of Islam. It won't be pretty.
If the Bush administration even looks like it is considering funding Hamas, the American voters will call or write their Senators and Congressmen, and it is the Senators and Congressmen who have the power to approve monetary expenditures. The Bush administration cannot act without the general approval of the American public, and the American public is tired of senseless violence.
Valerie
Why can't the Paletinians create an economy and pull thier own weight, instead of demanding the west give them welfare so they can devote their time and resources in planning more violence? This reminds me when the spineless fools in the UN demanded they include the Khmer Rouge in the new Cambodian coalition gov't. Hamas is like the Khmer, they are fascists and incompatible with any humane values.
"and various Democrats (the party not in power, but not that far out of it, there is an election coming) have already said they intend to see it enforced."
Very good!
"Why can't the Paletinians create an economy and pull thier own weight, instead of demanding the west give them welfare so they can devote their time and resources in planning more violence?"
They had an economy before the latest "Intifada". They decided to fight it away. You don't get much an economy when you decide to a) attack your powerful neighbour, b) reject all peace offers, and c) train your most supportive young to kill themselves (that is really the most ironic part).
I hear they destroyed the green houses in Gaza. Much good does it do them to run their own country now, does it?
As a pro-israeli jew, i have no love for Hamas. They strap bombs on their own children... they are sick.
But...
There is a small but real chance Hamas could change its tune if it means they obtain real power. And no one else could take down Islamic Jihad... the new Hamas.
I say they get 1 chance, and ONLY 1 chance. If they launch a single suicide attack or support Islamic Jihad in any way, they are gone.
If they, reluctantly, are netural or helpful, they stay.
We can give charity to whomever we please. While some problems in the ME are a result of Israel and other nations it is clear that most problems are homegrown. I am hearing lots of moderate even liberal people suggesting that it would be best if our foriegn policy focused on turning the entire M.E. into a huge prison similar to the west bank.(I don't agree, but it is troubling.)
-Mike
"It was going into corrupt coffers during the Arafat era, why stop now?"
Hamas seems to be less corrupt than the Arafat-administration, but of course that has to be proved. Anyway, why have they been corrupt? Not because they're bad people per se, but because it is an underdeveloped are with an under-educated population. And whose fault is that? Westerners bear a lot of the blame. They set up the state of Israel on land that was Palestinian property. Israel has invaded and occupied land that according to the original UN plan is not theirs, and they refuse to move out again. Israel has built a wall which encloses the Palestinian on land that is generally of the lowest quality. It is difficult for Palestinians to keep well-functioning businesses in operation under these circumstance. No wonder they protest against what is going on. I think a lot of you guys are under the influence of biased media.
You should try to take a more balanced view. The Palestinians are the little guy. Who is in possession of nuclear weapons? And how do we know about that?
Cosmic Duck, while I do appreciate your point of view I think it is a tad bious.
We have to remember that in 1948, Jews accepted the borders and 5 Arab armies had a better idea... tell the Palestinians to get out of the way while they throw the jews into the sea. Arab governments bear most of the blame for the refugee problem. (plus no one cares about the 750,000 jews who were kicked out of the Arab world with nothing but the shirts on their back)
Israel has been invaded many times since, and for some reason, keeps on winning. Their tactic of taking land after a war and returning it in exchange for peace is a completely valid tactic. (although building settlements was a very bad idea)
Israel has offered many peace deals... pretty fair ones! They were all rejected. Thats not Israel's fault.
And Palestinians happen to be some of the most educated Arabs in the world! Partly because of Israeli funded universities (as was their responsibility in the occupation)
Listen, anyone who thinks that Israel wants to continuously occupy or defend their borders is nuts! They do it because they have to... its unreasonable to think that Israel should not respond to suicide bombings, rocket attacks, and armies lined up against their borders.
And the wall has saved countless lives on both sides! It stopped the suicide bombings, in fact, in 2005 more Palestinians militants were killed by Palestinians than by Israel.
Palestinians ARE the little guy. That doesn't mean they are right. Israel has been in a state of war for 50 years and yet it is a thriving liberal democracy. I am not saying they are completely innocent, Israel has made mistakes. But they have done everything they can to make peace, and Arafat did everything he could to make war.
The US considers Hamas a terrorist orgnization, and has defined it so for quite a few years. What has bush said in the past about state sponsors of terrorism?
We should treat Hamas as what it is. It would be stupidity to give a terrorist org cash money. Are we suicidal, or what?
We can continue to provide aid. We absolutely must NOT provide cash.
"Israel has been invaded many times since, and for some reason, keeps on winning. Their tactic of taking land after a war and returning it in exchange for peace is a completely valid tactic. (although building settlements was a very bad idea)", Jordan writes.
Yes, the settlements were a bad idea. They make it difficult to work out a comprehensive peace. The problem now is that Israel will not give up the settlements. The Israelis have left the Gaza strip because it was of no value to them, and because they fear that the demographic balance would tip in favour of the Arabs. So they are stranded with problems that are impossible to solve. They may be forced to turn the West Bank into a concentration camp or an israeli apartheid arrangement. It's not tenable as a permanent solution to the conflict. They have to negotiate a peace on the basis of the Oslo agreements. But they have been running away from them, because they are afraid that the Palestinians will be too strong when they get their own state.
The US must put more pressure on the Israelis. That will be a precondition for peace, - and for the Americans getting a tolerable relationship to the Middle East countries.
Cosmic Duck,
"The US must put more pressure on the Israelis."
I don't agree, because there's nobody to put pressure on the Palestinians. What would the purpose be of putting pressure on the Israelis?
"That will be a precondition for peace"
You still believe the Palestinians are in a position to dictate terms?
I don't want the US involved in this anymore. America has not been able to solve the problems after 30 years of active involvement - in fact, US involvement has made things worse, if anything. We don't know the answers, so what good does our meddling do? We just get blamed for the constant failures.
I think if the US wants to do something substantila to help the world right now, we should spend that money that normally goes to Palestinians on sending about 50,000 peace keepers to Darfur. And we should do it now. We can make a difference in Darfur. We cannot in Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
"and for the Americans getting a tolerable relationship to the Middle East countries."
The US is not going to have a tolerable realtionship with Middle East countries any time soon, no matter what we do/don't do/try to do/etc. Not gonna happen. People who hate that hard don't ever change their minds. The generation that might feel differently about America has not been born yet.
Quote: i.e. Burning Danish Embassies and boycotting all Danish products and murdering random innocent people is a collective punishment of Danish people because they practiced their democratic freedoms in a transparent and honest way.
And now the funny part. Denmark is paying the PA 15.000.000 dollars every year in aid.. And Danish aid-workers had to be evacuated by the IDF from the palestinian areas due to the cartoons..
Talk about pissing your pants to stay warm.
Well, I think that we will drop the 15.000.000 dollars next year and just mail them some flags, pictures of the danish Prime Minister + matches next year. Seems to be more important to the Palestinians than food and education.
Oh, I almost forgot. They can also get some surplus dairy-products from the rest of the Middle East. We seem to (some how?) have mis-calculated the 2006 sales in several arab-countrys)
> They just don't like you, and they think if they give you money you will use it
> to buy weapons and wage attacks on them, so why give you any?
No.
The reason is, that Abbas is better suited as the "Judenrat" chief of the pal. prison,
while jewish fascists judaize the property of the Palestinians and try to starve them.
I would like to see them with weapons to drive their criminal and illegitimate
occupiers in the sea, or back to where they came from.
> because there's nobody to put pressure on the Palestinians.
Killing them daily, robbing their property is not enough?
What else do you want?
Gas chambers?
> The settlements offered no difficult obsticle to that peace treaty.
OK, we heard of death threats against Sharon the butcher,
and some feared a coup d'Etat by the army ... but you never
heard about that.
And - brilliant as you are - you don't know, how rapidly
Israels thieves continue with their genocidal plan by
robbing and destroying the pal. socio-economic infra-
structure.
Must be a genetical defect of the chosen people and their
friends.
> Israel did not STEAL one single square inch of it's land.
OK, they purchased about 6%.
So I agree, they should have their state on these 6%,
with concrete walls around and watchtowers, such that
the pal. guards can shoot the them, when they approach
the wall.
"zionism, the art of fraud", i would say... give it all back to the Brits!
> seem to only care about Palestinian deaths
I can count, I'm not stupid.
Counting reveals, that the chosen peoples killers took
out four palestinians for each israeli.
But the ratio is getting better for the chosen people,
for - with the prison-wall - they can shoot the pal.
now like fish in a barrel without getting punished.
All that paid by the US of course.
> give it all back to the Brits!
No - I'm a democrat - anti-chosen-people.
One man, one vote and the problem is resolved.
Democracy means bye, bye to a jewish state -
a.k.a. Israel - and who is opposed against
democracy?
No one dares I guess...
art of fraud:
Guess you should look more into the books about Zionism. You'll see that a state is not a necessity for this ideology.
Also, every Israeli citizen can participate in Israeli society. You believe they want to terminate the existence of Israel? Oh, wait.. you are probably referring to the non-Israeli passport holders in Gaza and Westbank...
If so, do you also want every (Jewish) Israeli to vote for the Palestinian Authority as well?
> Oh, wait.. you are probably referring to the non-Israeli passport holders
> in Gaza and Westbank...
Of course dear Suzanne.
Im referring to those, that the chosen people preferred
to deport, to become a majority in their homeland.
That's not very democratic you will admit in your next
post I guess.
Else, the chosen people should have their own ghetto on
the 6% they bought legally - more or less.
I'm wondering:
The palestinians are muslim and are as such very well connected to the muslim world - right?
Parts of this muslim world are 50% sand and 50% oil, and should therefore be an extremely wealthy part of the world - right?
The palestinians are (if they can keep their hands of C4/batteries) very welcome to live and work in Israel - right?
They are not exactly received with joy if they move to the surrounding countries (who all are muslim countries) - right?
The leaders they had, eased them into an intifada, they couldn't say no to (there's a death penalty for that...) which brought unimployment from 5% in the 80's to 20% in '95, while the whole world praised Arafat for his great leadership - right?
At the elections they could pretty much choose between Fatah, who is famous for its very expensive moneyhandling fees, and Hamas, who provide them with schools and aid, but at the same time always smell a little of gunpowder - right?
I would like to compare them with our friend Dick, but he didn't shoot himself in the foot. He shot a friend! I guess in the palestinian case, they have so many good friends helping them, that they don't that often have to shoot themselves in their feet. And sometimes they just shoot themselves in the foot, because there's nothing else to do - right?
I could wish to see what the outcome of the election had been, if the palestinians had had a valid alternative.
> So you must have been all up in arms over the Jordanian and
> Egyptian "Occupations" of the West Bank and Gaza ...
Yes, remember the battle of Karameh?
> In fact, when Israel tried to settle the refugees in
> *cities* after the '67 war
Where were these *cities*?
Isn't lying a sin for all that are kitabim?
> Could it be the Arabs don't actually give a damn about the Palestinians
Oh yes, that's true - and it doesn't fix at all the
nonexistent democracy in Palestine.
> The leaders they had, eased them into an intifada
In some points you were right, but then the problems
started.
Not their "leaders" eased them into the intifada, because
their leaders had sold their own people to the occupier.
So far it was the pal. people that started the first
intifada - 10 Pal. killed for one Israei - without
asking their leaders in Tunisia, and it were the same
people who started the second, that the choosen people
effectively transformed into a slaughterhouse - 4 Pal.
killed for one Israeli - thus creating the smokescreen
to accelerate ethnic cleansing.
Finally - the victory of HAMAS is Sharons victory, for
fascist bigots in the US AND Europe are now considering
to starve the Palestinians.
And that - attempted genocide - is the essence of Israel.
> a consistent effort was made to get the Palestinians
> into permanent housing
I never doubted that.
It reminds me of Theresienstadt - the club mediterranee
of the ghettos run by the third Reich.
> Oh, and don't forget to read the little bit about how
> much better the Palestinians fared
You were born in that slaveholder-society - the US - right?
It seems, that you are somehow opposing democracy?!
Why that?
"You were born in that slaveholder society-the US-right?" Yes, I am very, very old. I am hoping to make it to my 200th birthday in 2065. Democracy for palestine are you arab? Does it seem foolish to you when Arabs criticize the U.S. about the slavery issue when they know full well that slaves were moved into the M.E. during that same time period? When was slavery finally outlawed in the M.E.? (please don't tell me it's still legal)
-Mike
> why voluntary foreign aid should somehow become compulsory aid
That means what?
> My tax dollars did NOT go to support the murderous group Hamas
> and *their* genocidal dream to kill every Jew.
Your tax dollars support ethnical cleansing in Palestine since
decades. And if you are astonished about the outcome - hate against
the looters and thieves - , I can't help you.
> you amaze me that you can utterly ignore the attrocities
> committed against the Palestinains by the ARAB nations.
It amazes me, how sane people can consider this as an
"argument".
What are you trying to sell with that?
That Israelis have the right to torture, rape and kill
Palestinians, because some arab "brothers" did the same
in the past?
Why are you ignoring the fact, that this could only hap-
pen to the Palestinians, because they didn't had any state?
> you amaze me that you can utterly ignore the attrocities
> committed against the Palestinains by the ARAB nations.
It amazes me, how sane people can consider this as an
"argument".
What are you trying to sell with that?
That Israelis have the right to torture, rape and kill
Palestinians, because some arab "brothers" did the same
in the past?
Why are you ignoring the fact, that this could only hap-
pen to the Palestinians, because they didn't had any state?
> No. I was born into the Free society of the United States.
> Slavery ended some 150 years ago.
But - who the hell was Rosa Parks then?
Did she live 150 years ago?
No?
Democracy for palestine said "Your tax dollars support ethnical cleansing in Palestine since decades" Yet the population keeps growing.
Arab people everywhere, if the Jooos or Americans were trying to kill all the Arabs you would be dead. Seriously, we are really good at killing people. The only reason palestinians are still getting killed is because they can't stop attacking Israel. I am not defending Zionism (I think was/is an insane idea) but Israel exists and it is time to get over it. If you attack people don't be suprised when they respond.
> If Israel had REALLY wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestine,
> they would have done it by now.
They did that already in the past, but not that effective.
So they are repeating it right now in the Jordan valley.
> They wouldn't have worked SO BLOODY HARD for peace
You mean, that increasing the number of settler by 100%
during Oslo - the famous peace-process - was "working
for peace". Bloody - yes - but peace no.
Factually Israel has always done everything possible, to
avoid peace, because peace would have meant to be forced
to give back all the property they have stolen since 1967.
Israel never wanted peace, unles you define peace as the
absence of the native Palestinians - but then you should
correctly call it "ethnic cleansing".
> I will no longer waste my time replying to ignorant,
> biggotted racists such as yourself.
Perhaps something is badly wrong with your education.
And finally, why you're evading the democracy-thing?
Because you don't support democracy?
Are you arab?
> if the Jooos or Americans were trying to kill all the Arabs you would be dead.
I like that style of threatening other people.
Where you've been educated?
> Seriously, we are really good at killing people.
No doubt. Stalin or Hitler were much worse than you,
but they didn't pretend to be "democrats" or fans
of human rights or else...
> The only reason palestinians are still getting
> killed is because they can't stop attacking Israel.
There was only one way to create Israel - a jewish
state in an arab country - by war, terror and propaganda.
Israel is the negation of all palestinian rights, it's
and attack and was planned as an genocidal enterprise -
Herzl himself already mentioned ethnic cleansing in his
diaries.
So far your statement reverses the reality.
> If you attack people don't be suprised when they respond.
Which side do you mean?
This is a real gem, I just answered my 5:12 question. Regarding democracy for palestine's accusation that the United States is a slaveholder society from wiki
"Slave owning and slave-like working conditions have been documented up to and including the present, in countries of the Middle East. Though the subject is considerd taboo in the affected regions, a leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country's religious curriculum has called for the outright re-legalization of slavery."
Bringing back legal slavery!?!
-Mike
Sandmonkey, is democracy for palestine posting from San Francisco by any chance?
"There will ONLY be peace when the Arabs give it up."
An excellent observation, Andrew, Thank you. Because, right or wrong, by fair means or foul, Israel IS here to stay. It is worse than useless to sit and argue about who did what to whom, and which was worse. What has been done is done. It cannot be undone. Of course there is more than enough blame to go around. I don't think anyone involved has clean hands, but if we focus on assigning blame and whining about how terrible, and unfair, and difficult life is NOTHING WILL CHANGE.
Nobody can put things back to the way they were for the Pal. people. Period. The ONLY way the Palestinians can achieve a peaceful and prosperous future is to LET GO OF THE PAST! ("give it up" as Andrew said.) Stop being the victim, get up and move on with life. The best place to start is to forgive Israel, for everything. Not because they deserve it, forgiveness isn't something that can be deserved, and not for Israel's sake either, Israel will survive just fine whether or not anyone forgives them for anything. But holding on to the anger, bitterness, and revenge destroys people's lives. It kills hope, destroys dreams. It usurps energy and inteligence that should be directed positively toward building a future and creates terrorists instead. Holding on to the hurts and injustices of the past only keeps people stuck in them, keeping themselves victims for life, and worse, passing the pain on to their children. Forgiving is NOT condoning or enabling the sins of others, it IS refusing to allow yourself to be destroyed by them.
In my opinion, the worst evil Hamas does is to keep the people slaves to anger and hopelesness by refusing to let go of the past, or to allow others to let go of it. The violence is a predictable result of this mindset. They manipulate the people into trusting them because of their social programs, they tell them that they are going to fix the big problems too, but they stand squarely in the way of any real solution to the situation. The US would be crazy to give them money, and the sooner the palestinian public realizes how unable hamas is to deliver any kind of peace the better.
Only when they have let go of the past, stopped talking about the way things "were", or "should be" and start dealing with the way things ARE, will any real progress be possible. THEN peace negotiations will have a hope of success, because then they will be about giving the people a future, not about "winning" over Israel, or about revenge, or redress of grievance, but about giving people hope and their children dreams again. And isn't that REALLY the point?
DFP, it isn't a threat. We have the ability to wipe people off the map. I am not suggesting that genocide is acceptable, just that if the west wanted everyone in the ME dead they would have already done it. That you are still alive is proof enough that there is not a giant conspiracy to kill you.
I don't know if you missed it, but, in one of my previous posts I mentioned that I did not think the creation of Israel was a good idea (nobody asked me unfortunatly;). I still think it was a bad idea, but it exists anyway.
I don't understand why you are complaining about the death ratio between Israel and Palestine in the last "war". As if that meant anything at all. A Palestinain walks into a coffe shop and blows himself up hoping to kill as many civilians as possible (lets say 15 for the sake of arguement). Israel responds by killing the people who made the bomb etc and kill 30. Palestine is losing twice as many people in the "war" as israel, so fucking what.
Democracy for Palestine,
>"What are you trying to sell with that?"
I think the ( very valid ) point elengil was trying to make was that for all the shouting the "Arab brothers" do about the palestinian plight, they have done nothing to alieviate it. And I'm not really sure that there is much in their power they didn't do to make it worse/prolong it. That is extreme hipocrisy, and that is the point.
Sorry dude. We are too busy boycotting Butter and LEGO at the moment.
All part of the power play. Leadership (and its concurrent social and economic benefits) in militant Islam belongs to those who are perceived as most effectively beating up the infidels. The Fatah-led PA was a lesser threat to other militants that Hamas, hence the attractiveness of the Cartoon War to increase the authority of other militants, just as 9-11 served to steal power and money away from the Palestinians -- it was no coincidence that after 9-11 Osama didn't mention the Palestinian Arabs even once! Maybe the mullahs helped orchestrate this to keep their former Hamas satellites in check.
The saying "the only one a grudge hurts is the person carrying it" sure applies here,doesn't it?
You should ask the question: Why have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians been living in refugee camps for half a century? These people are stateless. They are not citizens in any country. Is this their own fault? No, they were evicted from land that originally was theirs. I'm not saying itø's the Israelis that are the only ones to be blamed for that. Before Palestine was carved up Jews and Palestinians were living quite peacefully side by side. The jews were buying land from them. The calamities started in 1947-48, and they have continued apace ever since.
How can we refuse aid to people living whole lives in refugee camps?
democracy for palestine, you only reacted to one of my questions and didnt give an answer to the obvious question following from it: do you want Israeli passport holders to vote for the Palestinian Authority?
Cosmic Duck,
You should ask the question: Why have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians been living in refugee camps for half a century? These people are stateless. They are not citizens in any country.
I've seen this question both asked and answered in this thread alone at least a dozen times.
For instance, Elengil suggested that Egypt should annex Gaza and Jordan should annex the West Bank.
The Palestinians would no longer be stateless. 70% or so of Jordanians are Palestinian, anyway, right?
I know Plaestinians would never accept this, and neither would the Arab states. I would like to see an explanation from you of what's wrong with it, though, since you seemed to be indicating the main problem is that the Palestinians are stateless.
I'll tell you what *I* think is wrong with it. I think the "state" that the Palestinians (and the rest of the Arab world) expect and demand has to be called "Palestine" - not Egypt or Jordan - and it has to be located where Israel is now.
That's my analyses of why this is still a problem, and why it will always remain a problem, as long as Israel continues to exist. Not very politically correct, but there it is.
Israel is not going to lose, which means the Palestinians cannot win, which means this situation will never end. And that's why I don't want the US involved in it anymore. Look how many people have condemned the US for "failing" to solve this problem already in these commenst alone. Why should we even be trying? The problem can only be solved by Arabs, because only Arabs can change Arab objectives.
"Is this their own fault? No, they were evicted from land that originally was theirs."
For one thing, that land was part of a British colony, so Palestinians were also "stateless" before the creation of Israel. As were Jews, by the way.
For another thing... oh, forget it. You can read history books as well as I can.
"I'm not saying itø's the Israelis that are the only ones to be blamed for that."
The UN was to blame for that. There was no such thing as an "Israeli" before the creation of Israel.
"Before Palestine was carved up Jews and Palestinians were living quite peacefully side by side."
And why shouldn't they? Judea and Canaan/Philistia existed side by side for thousands of years.
"The calamities started in 1947-48, and they have continued apace ever since."
You mean wars, don't you? That's the part that makes this discussion a bit difficult. We're expecting the winner of multiple wars to make concessions to the losers. It doesn't generally work that way, and it's not working very well in this isntance either.
"How can we refuse aid to people living whole lives in refugee camps?"
a) it's illegal in the United States to fund terrorsit groups. There are hundreds of private citziens in prison in the US for raising money for Hamas. Now the government is going to give money to - Hamas!?
b) We've been giving money to those refugees for decades, and it hasn't alleviated the suffering.
All that said, I am in favor of continuing to provide humanitarian assistance (directly, not through Hamas or the PA) but not MONEY and not anything that could be used in any way to wage war against the Israelis.
"Egypt should annex Gaza and Jordan should annex the West Bank"
That would be a very cynical way of dealing with the problem, quite apart from the fact that it would be against international law and the UN charter, according to which no state has a right to annnex. Furthermore, even stateless people may have a budding national identity. It's a serious matter to start messing with people's sense of identity. Then it is no wonder if they turn into terrorists.
It would also run counter to the accomplishments of the Oslo agreements.
The main problem is that Israel does not really want to respect the Oslo peace process, even though the country is signatory to it. It's not honest talk on the part of the Israelis when they sign this agreement and the road map for peace and then build walls.
Now, all we global citizens thought that the Berlin wall was the last wall separating man from man. But no, the Israelis continue this wall building, separating man from man and thus violating human rights of movement.
"The main problem is that Israel does not really want to respect the Oslo peace process, even though the country is signatory to it. It's not honest talk on the part of the Israelis when they sign this agreement and the road map for peace and then build walls."
Maybe you don't know this but the fence (If it's 4% wall and 96% fence is it really a wall?) didn't exist in 2000. The Palestinians entirely brought this on themsleves. And if they stop terrorism the fence will be gone. Now if passive defense against terrorism is wrong then the only alternative for Israel is active defense. Is that what you wish for the Palestinians?
And if you want to talk about Oslo, nowhere in that accord is it stated that Israel is not allowed to build fences, walls or settlements. On the other hand any group which "pursues the implementation of its aims by unlawful or non-democratic means" cannot stand for election in the PA. So the only ones in breach of the Oslo accord are the Palestinians. And Hamas doesn't recognize the accord anyway, so as soon as there is a Hamas government Israel is no longer legally required to fulfill the agreement.
Alex
Cosmic Duck,
That would be a very cynical way of dealing with the problem, quite apart from the fact that it would be against international law and the UN charter, according to which no state has a right to annnex.
No state has a right to annex? Lets see... Since the formation of the UN, The USSR annexed dozens of nations, China annexed Tibet and plans to annex Taiwan, North Vietnam annexed South Vietnam, Syria annexed part of Lebanon and Israel annexed part of Lebanon and Syria. Just to name a few!
And what if Israel *voluntarily* ceded those lands?
And why is it cynical? It seems to me a MUCH more humane situation than what currently exists.
But no, the Israelis continue this wall building, separating man from man and thus violating human rights of movement.
There is no human right to cross borders at will. None.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Unless you are claiming that the Palestinian Territories are not seperate from Israel, the Israel has a right to enforce a border between the two in any manner they see fit.
And if you ARE claiming that the Palestinian Territories are part of Israel, then there is no such thing as "illegal settlements," and Israelis should have been entitled to vote in the recent Palestinian elections.
I really hate to feel like I'm taking sides on this issue, because I raelly don't even like to talk about it. It's a mess. But it seems like everything you say makes the Israelis the bad guys, and the Palestinians the good guys. There ARE no good guys in the Palestian/Israeli conflict. Somebody needs to find a solution that satisfies all parties, or there'll be no solution. As I said before, though... I don't want the US involved, anymore. The US can't fix this.
"Now, all we global citizens thought that the Berlin wall was the last wall separating man from man. But no, the Israelis continue this wall building, separating man from man and thus violating human rights of movement."
You should really, really read all the documents and charters you refer to.
You probably think that you make a great point when you refer to the UN and the Oslo agreements, but it is very clear that you have never read the Oslo agreement treaty nor the UN charters you refer to.
There is no UN law that forbids annexations.
There is no human right that allows anybody to cross any border whenever they want, specifically not into a country one is at war with.
The Oslo agreement or international law does not forbid the building of border fences or other security installations, even in occupied territory. In fact international law specifically alows the building of security fences in occupied land. (That is how the UN tried to keep the Bosnians from killing each other.)
The Oslo agreement does not allow the "Palestinians" to start an Intifada against the partner in the treaty, not even when the Israeli opposition leader walks on the temple mount, and especially not when the Intifada was planned before that event.
Please, do yourself a favour and read all the documents you keep refering to. If only so you can be able to make a better case for your position.
"No state has a right to annex? Lets see... Since the formation of the UN, The USSR annexed dozens of nations, China annexed Tibet and plans to annex Taiwan, North Vietnam annexed South Vietnam, Syria annexed part of Lebanon and Israel annexed part of Lebanon and Syria. Just to name a few!"
West Germany annexed East Germany.
And Jordan annexed the West Bank.
Who's land is it?
Well, Crusaders had it for a while.
So did the Greek empire.
Then Rome. Then Byzantium.
After the Crusaders, some Arabs, then Egypt,
then Ottomans, then British.
And Jews lived in the area for millenia.
Christians lived in the area for millenia.
Christian and Muslim Arabs lived in the area for millenia.
"You should ask the question: Why have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians been living in refugee camps for half a century? These people are stateless."
Tibet is occupied. The Kurds are stateless. The Armenians were victims of genocide and had to escape death. Millions of refugees in wars of the 20th century have had to move from homelands to make a new life.
The Arabs of Palestine never *had* a state called "Palestine", the closest thing in history to it was the crusader state of the 12th century and before that ancient Israel itself! The area was always ruled from other lands.
"They are not citizens in any country. Is this their own fault? No, they were evicted from land that originally was theirs."
The land was never 'theirs' alone and never will be. Moreover this begs the question of the number of Israeli Arabs that stayed and live in Israel still, and begs also the question of the rights of Jews that were lost in Arab countries. Jews were evicted from Baghdad and in many cases swapped their lives with Palestinian Arabs. Same for many other Arab countries. The question is: If those Arab countries could evict Jews to Israel, why cant they make the newcomers into citizens?
The ultimate solution is not to focus on political power but on basic human needs, living and rights. That won't happen with terrorists running Governments, and Arab Government not even recognizing their neighbor Israel, so I agree with the comment that the US should just butt out and stop trying to make peace process with people/groups who desperately prefer war to 'solve' things.
And yes: Close down the refugee camps and get people permanently settled. After 55 years, they are not serving any good purpose.
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