12 muslim men try to kidnap one of the cartoonists daughters
I mentioned it here. The source of the news came from an Interview with the political spokesman for the liberals Jens Rohde. Agora has the trasncript:
News Anchor: Jens Rohde, you almost sound like a headmaster at a boarding school: "Those who have been misbehaving know who they are…." Shouldn’t the government go public and say that this is a debate about Freedom of Speech - these people haven’t been here: them and them and them.
Jens Rohde: This isn’t about people who haven’t been there - this is about some people who have been very active in trying to get the government to issue an apology. And that is not, we think, in tune with these people saying that they support Freedom of Speech or, for that matter, Freedom of the Press. And it is /that/ basic discussion the Prime Minister participated in - and…. now this seems to be turning into a discussion about someone’s hurt vanity and I think that is really too bad, because the discussion about the principles of this is first of all important, and apart from that I think we ought to consider that we have 12 cartoonists in this country who have to live in hiding under protection, have had their lives turned around. The daughter of one of the cartoonists was sought out by 12 Moslem males at her school - they wanted to get at her. Luckily, she wasn’t there, and these people now live with fatwas over their head. And this is where I think that all of us ought to back these people up and say that we don’t want to allow this kind of thing to happen to our cartoonists - we need to back up their right to exercise their profession.
Oh man. If this is true, ehh, I don't even want to think about what will happen in Denmark if this is true. I am going to wait for more confirmations on this, because I don't want to lash out based on one person's account of what happend. But if this is true, if some of them stooped this low in the name of "defending the prophet", than I am quitting Islam for an undisclosed period of time. I don't want to have ANYTHING to do with those people. They burn embassies and people, they bomb churches, and they now threaten children? FUCK THAT! This will be my final straw if it's true; I would quit until the muslim community as a whole gets together and says that this crap IS NOT ACCEPTABLE and cracks down hard on the crazies , or they will be accomplices and encouragers to this kind of behavior in my eyes. Again, I will wait for confirmation that this is true from another source in the government first, and I am really hoping it would be nothing but a rumor. Please God let it be a rumor!
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 3/02/2006 10:58:00 PM
58 Comments:
Its beyond belief!!!
Its as Arab-American Psychologist Wafa Sultan says: "it is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."
You should see the whole video, its loud and clear. I admire her guts though!
http://sugiero.blogspot.com/2006/03/caricatures-cartoons-and-muhammed.html
I'm so worried... Had the child been hurt, Denmark would have exploded in blind rage.
All the major news media report the story, but they all report back to the same interview. We will know more later today, I suspect.
Gods I hope this is untrue...
It's not confirmed yet. I'm waiting for the official explanation from the police.
I am going to quit this basketball team until you guys start passing me the ball. How can you catch the ball if you aren't even there?
Why don't you think again?
There will not be a confimation not because its not corect but because the police have no reason to confirm it.
up til know compared to the mental pressure we all have been under hear in denmark. there have been nearly no reaction to the muslims hear in denmark apart from the fact that we want the radikalmuslims out.
Thise will not change that. Actualy i would belive that many muslims whant then out as well
Elnora
we are not like you.
Sandmonkey,
sorry for asking, but is there apostasy legislation in Egypt? Sorry for diverting with my question, but I am really curious.
A.
re: the cartoons. every paper in the world that believes in freedom of speech should publish the cartoons. then no paper or country could be singled out. rajur
I'm so worried... Had the child been hurt, Denmark would have exploded in blind rage.
I doubt it, all you would see is a slight shift in the political spectrum as it relates to immigration and taking in refugees. People would vote for politicians who would crack down on the former, and jam the latter with beurocracy. Perhaps ther would be a couple more people giving dirty looks in subways.
Really, we quit going berserk centuries ago, you'll only see a measured response.
If it is true or not it´s sure good spin! Anders Fogh and Jens Rohde has had a bit of a bad wind (criticisme and more) the last few days.
I personally thinks it is despicable to use a young girl and her families unfortunately situation (don´t think anyone would say that for the directly implicated - the carton-drawers and their family- this is a potential fatal situation. If the threast continue then they will probably never feel save again) especially because if this eleged atttempt to kidnapping may "inspirer" others to try something similar.
In the end of the day - nothing your friends and family do should have implications for yourself!
This is a very sad situation. And the fact that everybody talks about can cause terrible things as it is. If it is also turns out to be true then...
I personally fear that this situation never will cease. It will escalete untill...?
To Rajur: good thinking but rigth now the cartoons have been published in more than 50 medias and it is still only Denmark and selected others that are pointed out as being the bad guys...
12:41 AM,
i think there is in the koran.
dead.
What is going to happen to the Danish imams who created the three most offensive cartoons? The Jyllands-Posten cartoons are cute little kittens by comparison.
Not that angry Muslims would be HYPOCRITES or anything. But shouldn't Islamic law apply to Muslims first?
There have been examples of vigilantes in Danish history, and I am honestly worrie something like this would spur similar reactions.
Anonymous:
Elnora
we are not like you.
Who are "you", and what "me" are you refering to exactly?
Einherjar, I certainly hope you're right, but it's not entirely true that we stopped going baserk centuries ago. Remember how German refugees were treated after WWII? How women and children died, and doctors refused to treat them?
Blind rage does odd things to humans. Danes are hardly perfect (and yes, I'm Danish).
Now everybody cool: it has not been stated if the 12 men wanted to kidnap her - maybe they wanted to intimidate her (not that I find that especially comforting, but there is a difference!)
Lets hope its the latter!
And I'm also afraid this could trigger response from some angry danes: We've been sitting put, watching in disbelief how the mob torhced our embassies and beat up danish employess. How the arab world has used this little incident to inflame everything, and we really don't understand!
If something like a kidnapping would occur, I think that it could be the straw to break the camels back!
I'm afraid that people are totally fed up doing nothing about this fascism pounding our gates!
Peace!
A Dane
Another more recent example were the vigilantes attacking and killing Jørgen 'Jønne' Højen after rumours that he was paedophile. The accusations turned out to be untrue, but that didn't do the poor guy much good.
Danes have anger management issues at times too. I hope we keep our temper in this matter. As written above, I worry that the limit has been reached for many.
Hopefully, it will all turn out to be untrue. I imagine we will know in a few days.
To EducSubNorm..ok, lets chill a bit. This rumour/statement is as yet unverified and, as most of these things do, appeals to our deepest and darkest fears and prejudices. let's wait and see if (a) it's true and (b)what the authorities do about it. We are ready to judge but are we yet ready to excercise control. I am not an apologist for anyone but I have seen things turn to shit before based on rumour and as much as we like the adrenalin rush let's see what the truth is in the harsh light of scrunity. My two cents worth anyway. BW
Alright, I'll agree that an occational neo nazi might get pushed over the edge, but Denmark will not "explode in blind rage", which, in my mind at least, conjures up images of riots rivaling those that had the embassys burned, and armed bands killing in the streets like something out of Nigeria. That shit doesn't fly in Denmark.
I'm guessing that's why someone thought you were non western, the notion of a nation "exploding in blind rage" over the actions of twelve dolts just seems too ailien to have originated here.
"What is going to happen to the Danish imams who created the three most offensive cartoons? "
For the record: the imams who travelled to the middleeast and showed the 12 cartoon from JP and more did not create offensive cartoons themselves but chose to show cartoons and photos that had been mailed the imams anonymously to give a more correct image of whats going on in Denmark. If that was a good ide or not is up for discussion...
I myself have not yet decided. I´ve decided to wait until it´s been clear what the imams actually did and said...
Dear Anonymous:
You said:
"...it has not been stated if the 12 men wanted to kidnap her - maybe they wanted to intimidate her (not that I find that especially comforting, but there is a difference!)"
After Beslan and that Jewish guy in France who was tortured to death, I don't think the twelve perpetrators will be getting the benefit of the doubt from too many people.
I sure hope it's a false report.
Dear Einherjar:
You're probably right about the Danish reaction. But I think "monsters" might be a better categorization than "dolts".
as to the maybe-vigilantic possible actions in Denmark...
vigilance can happend anywhere (not only by islamist or americans..)To think otherwise is stupid. Of course it can. Sadly.
In Denmark theres a hatefull view on paedophiles because of a very unfortunately case in the fall and yes there was a man who got killed because he aleged had touch himself in the groin while looking at 2 girls. The police found the man innocent.
What will happend if the story about this girl turns out to be true? I don´t know. Could there be violence? Yes I´m sad to say. But I think that it is a more important question WHEN this did happend? If it happend several months ago and nothing (apparantly) happend since then nothing violent might happend. Then the question ought to be WHY the story was told now...
I sure do hope no more violence will happend. The causualties are much too high enough as it is now.
You're probably right about the Danish reaction. But I think "monsters" might be a better categorization than "dolts".
Tecnically you are right, but "monsters" wouldn't have worked. In order to get the right tone, to bring my sentiment across, I needed to phrase it so as to downplay their signifficance.
kirle
You should say what nationality and faith then two killers had before speeding thing like that.
There will be no violent reaction in Denmark, from the majority of Danish and not the number of people you see on the streets around the world.
Latest news as I did say earlier.
"No comments from the police"
Why should they comment? They do not want to lie and will not risk increasing the tension and will not give them any benefit.
Mr. Rohde just said this to tell people that to but the debated in contest. E.G. it’s not fun to be in the Anti-Jihady club. Just ask Sand monkey if he would put is address on the page hear? This people will have to stay in hiding the rest of there life’s. And Mr. Grundfoss is filling ill treated with words? “if you don’t tread me with respect I will move my factory” ok I thing they will have to move some part of it, they already have before this.
This is the same approach Islamic extremists have in Egypt. They abducted many Christian women, raped them, impregnated them, and forced them to marry them. Many of these women were actually minors and the sick pimping Egyptian government did nothing about it. Sandmonkey , you inspired me with your wonderful heartful writing style, so I created a blog like you. In the blog, I am ranting against both racist Muslims and racist Whites. I hope you make comments one day. www.deomcraticegypt.blogspot.com
Don't you think they were there, not to kidnap or intimidate the girl but to follow her to where her father is. Not that that makes anything better though....
what a shame!
Such ignorant bastards
This would be very dastardly, especially if it were indeed true.
This article, however, seems to imply that the story about the 12 men is NOT true:
http://www.jp.dk/indland/artikel:aid=3591938/
Now, what would you, on the other hand, think of a politician who made up such a story just to cash in a few votes and a little support by doing some extra Muslim-baiting?
Right, you'd call him a despicable little hate-monger. And that's what he is, our little Jens Rohde.
"This article, however, seems to imply that the story about the 12 men is NOT true"
What?!
There is nothing in the article that implies that what JR said is not true. He is being criticized for telling the story, and one of the critics accuse him telling the story "distorted and out of proportion", but not untrue. Whatever the distorion is supposed to be is not told by the critic however.
So there has been an incident (a few weeks ago, the article notes), there is dispute over how many men(?) asked about the girl, but essentially something has happened.
JR was merely pointing out that some of our fellow citizens have to live undercover because of deaththreats and that he believed we sympthize with them and oppose the hatemongers.
How evil of him.
Jeez.
/Limagolf
Take it easy sandmonkey.
There is new information in the case, which you can read about on my website.
The leader of the Danish Journalists’ Union Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard has voiced hard criticism on behalf of the 12 cartoonists, who are members of the Journalists’ Union. Bjerregaard accuses Rohde of publishing confidential information he has received for the cartoonists, and for distorting and exaggerating information, for instance about a cartoonist’s daughter being sought out by 12 muslim men at her school. “This “school story” is actually 4 weeks old. It is the feather turned into 5 hens”, Bjerregaard tell Danish paper Politiken today. He continues: “One of the factual errors is the image of the 12 muslim men. It is completely distorted and out of proportion.”
Sorry, my friend, it is very likely true. There's a video of the interview and the spokesman was very serious. Besides...it's happened before...except that time they didn't get stopped. Remember Beslan?
It's the Islamists way of saying: "If you stand up to us we can reach out and 'touch' you anywhere; we can pay a visit to your kid's school..." and all that that implies. How about you're at work and your aged grandmother or father and mother in a retirement home...could get a visit. Anywhere you aren't and there are people you care about...they'll have researched to find out who that is and where to put the pressure on. It's evil incarnate. It's not all Muslims doing it but those that aren't are too afraid to say anything. They'd suffer the same fate.
I still think you should take care not to whip up anti-muslim sentiments on a wrong foundation. Jens Rohde clearly exaggerated in the interview on TV, because he and his boss, prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, are hard pressed now in this case.
All you need to know from reputable bloggers on this subject can be found at either:
www.brusselsjournal.com or
www.agora.blogsome.com
Far north:
There is something about it, since nobody is saying that it's not true.
The Danish Security Intelligence Service has advised the cartoonists not to say anything. So I guess we will not hear the details.
Jens Rohde says, he spoke about it to show support for the cartoonists with fatwas. He is a more colourful politicians than most politicians are, so if one agrees with him, he's defending the cartoonists. If one dislikes him, he's just trying to use an unfortunate situation to the benefit of the present government.
To call him a "hate-monger" depends on your political views and who you believe are the victims in this case.
I january/february the parliament more or less decided to let the PM handle the whole situation without interferrence. Or at least less interferrence than one could have expected. So now they all have to make clearer statements about their point of view.
The opposition is picking on the government critizising anything they do and have done - or not done - for the past 4 months.
The voters move more and more to the right, so I'm not sure the opposition is feeling like their former voters.
I may not be right about it, but that's how I "read" the situation.
Q
So far, the proof seems very vague here and the facts distorted. Anyway, of course it's not the point if the daughter has been sought by 12 adults or youngsters or just one and for what reason, it's disgusting anyway.
However, SM, you're one of the guys in this world who's done the greatest job for distributing news and views on the whole cartoon clash. This time I think you've acted before the facts have been really confirmed. The story so far looks as true as the "fact" that the Quran had been burnt in Copenhagen (one of the reasons for the attacks on Danish embassies in Syria and Lebanon) or the "fact" that the Quran had been desecrated in Guantanamo. Both were false claims, yet we still have loads of people believing in them.
Now, if in this case the story of 12 angry jihadists haunting a small girl is untrue or distorted, hope you'll post that big as well. There's already enough of rumours and disinformation here and I wouldn't like the claim of twelve to live on and spread more hatred.
Distorted facts are always ugly, no matter what you aim at with them, and they're ugly even when they're not being spread intentionally.
Your anonymous fan
Far North.
New information on Danish TV tonight indicates that there was an exaggeration. And not a slight one. There were not 12 muslim men, but some muslim boys, and some of these boys went to the same school as the girl. That may be serious enough. I would be the last to defend such behaviour, also on muslim boys' behalf. But still, let's keep a sense of proportion here. The incident took place several weeks ago. There was not talk of kidnapping. And it was a kind of schoolboy prank.
These cartoonists are very vulnerable. They're under the protection of the secret intelligence service in Denmark at the moment. Jens Rohde should not openly reveal information that is confidential, and which may jeapordize their security. The whole situation about this is very tense in Denmark at the moment. What is important is to try to protect these people who just sent in some cartoon in order to take part in a contest a newspaper made.
from what i have seen in the news and from what i hear the story is corect.
some people har from danmark can not seperat between there dislics for our presendt coverment and Rhode and the fact that he is must likely not making this up.
is critisied to make it more dagoros for the cartoinist and to use the information in a not corect way. i am 100% that its a corect storry.
PS SAndmonky if you are not a muslim any more can wee take a beer together next time i am in Cairo? i know on of your local frinds.
Carten Agger,
It doesn't seem to me that the article insinuates that the story is not true, on the contrary.
I'm fairly certain it would have been rejected, had it -not- been. The guy simply states that it is weeks old, and that he finds it appalling that the story is used as "political gain", when bringing it up could worsen the situation for the cartoonists.
Anonymous.
It is not a question of liking or disliking the Anders Fogh Rasmussen government. What is important is the truth and not to whip up sentiments against muslims for no apparent reason. They should not burn flags and embassies. But most of the muslims in Denmark play fairly well by the rules and they feel very sorry about what is going on.
Hi SM,
Why base leaving Islam on this one little girl? How aobut the little girls beheaded in Indonesia? Or all the other innocent women and children, Muslim, Christian, and Jewish, who are getting blown up every day by muslim fanatics? I'd say you already have more than enough basis to leave Islam to the imams and mullahs who control it. Free yourself, man! You're better off without it.
Elora,
Cosmic Duck has the story.
For me, I read: Jens Rohde tried to make a cheap point by lying. But, there might be other interpretations.
But please note that the criticism of Rohde in Cosmic Duck's link is made by the chairman of the Danish Union of Journalists speaking *on behalf of the 12 cartoonists* who made the actual cartoons.
That ought to make some sort of difference, I think.
kirle,
"For the record: the imams who travelled to the middleeast and showed the 12 cartoon from JP and more did not create offensive cartoons themselves but chose to show cartoons and photos that had been mailed the imams anonymously"
Who says, the lying imams who used the non-Jyllands-Posten cartoons to whip up death threats against the Jyllands-Posten cartoonists? They're proven liars.
Strange to start a post with the above comment, then finish with "wait and see." It undercuts your "for the record." Sounds like you don't know the record.
You do realize one of the "Mohammed cartoons" was an AP photo of a French hog-calling contestant, don't you?
In the law, my profession, unless you have EVIDENCE to the contrary we assume someone who produces something, well, produced it.
"Not my drugs" when they're in your hand is a lousy defense, but I guess you'd fall for it.
sandmonkey
still in for the beer in Cairo.
thise world is gooing downd the drain but lets have a last bit of fun before the end.
from then news then small change in the storry is that some were not men but from the school. it not said all boys but proberlyr some boys and some men. and yes they proberly just want to that hear for a picknick like the jews in the second big european war.
But if this is true, if some of them stooped this low in the name of "defending the prophet", than I am quitting Islam for an undisclosed period of time.
Hey SandMonkey,
Islam means Submission to the will oF Allah (subhanahu wa talaa), you should worship him because he is your creator, not because muslims are good or bad.
But if you are a muslim for some other reason, then you should reconsider.
ahmad, is that bold type a threat? I heard that if you reconsider being a muslim somebody will kill you.
mike,
No it's not a threat. I meant isn't it better if he reconsider why he is a muslim.
ahmad
Of cause the story is true. No politician in his right mind would make up such a story; it would definitely blow up in his face and be the same as committing political suicide. Most likely the cartoonists and their families have to live underground, if not forever, then for a very long time.
I’m not at all surprised that happened. It was bounded to happen sooner or later.
AHMAD, I think you are absolutely right. Sandmonkey shouldn’t change his believes because some extremists have their own weird way of practice religion.
Personally, I don’t belong to any religion. I think I could come up with 20 very different “organized” religions based on the actual same two books, the Bible and the Koran, and several other religions based on something else. Also in history there have been very great religions, which past time have been forgotten.
So I do often think: “and on the 8th day humans created the Gods, and they have been fighting ever since”. Every religious group claims, that their specific religion is THE one and only TRUTH, they can feel deep in their heart.
The only thing required to create a religion based on the bible or Koran, is to pin point out some issues which can be expounded in different ways, and woops! You have just made up a new religion you can use to control and oppose people and gain power for yourself. Can’t you see that?
So I have made a deal with God: If you exist, I would like to know why the world is the way it is, but I guess you have your reasons. And please forgive me God, that I haven’t been able to find the right religion, the ones I know; I can’t believe comes from you. But I trust that you can see into my heart.
AHMAD, do these thoughts make me a bad person or what? Really like to know your opinion.
Kiki
There are a couple of updates at Agora which confirm the event. First the lawyer for the cartoonists in hiding, was upset that the information about the 12 men visiting the school being released. He said it happened two weeks ago and it was only 12 teenagers, nothing really, and making a fuss about it was going to endanger the cartoonists even more. So there's the confirmation from the cartoonists' lawyer, indirectly.
I guess he's trying to protect his clients who by now are freaked out. But it doesn't lessen the seriousness of 'the visit' even if they were 12 teenagers. Teenagers today can be very big and intimidating. I wouldn't want to take on the average 16 yr. old today. No...this was very serious and the 'youths' were sent so that if anything happened and there was an outcry, it could be blamed on over-eager youthfulness. The Muslim Brotherhood knows their stuff. This was planned intimidation, Sandmonkey, not just to the cartoonists; it was a message to us all: "Stand up to us and well stalk you and your kids!"
Well it has been in all of the Scandinavian newspapers.
You should still be a muslim. Religion is a personal thing. If you find Islam peacefull, you should stick with it.
The problem are these people who don't belive in personal religions... but in theocraties based on their barbaric way of Islam.
As for me, I would never become a muslim, because of these people, and the fact that the Quran got some pretty nasty verses about kafirs. Its something about having been outside, looking in..as apposed to being born inside, looking out and being told that you are better than everybody else.
I would be more afraid of a 12 16 year olds, than 12 adults...
You know what the problem with Islam is? The moderats who don't dare to speak out because they don't want to be labled as non-islamic.
Fundamentalism will grow when the fundamentalists themselves are the ones who are allowed to define a good muslim.
Sandmonkey, I feel badly for you.
I'm a Christian, and I feel committed to peace between religions.
I don't know if there is something instrinsically wrong with Islam or not. I don't know if there is any spark of divine in it or not, but it has always been called one of the world's "great" religions. I do know that Christians have done really terrible things in the name of Christ, but I have never allowed that to shake my faith in Christianity. If Islam has helped you have a friendship with God, then I hope you don't turn your back on it.
ahmad at 3:49, sorry for the rude question.
The latest news is that the "12 Muslim men" who sought out the cartoonists' daughter were actually 6-8 girls of the same age of the girl; it was, thus, an attempt of harassment or school "teasing" rather than an attempted abduction.
Now, I think even that is despicable, should be frowned upon, and I hope their parents give them a good scolding.
But the "12 Muslim men" which made the Sandmonkey react (and rightly so!) were an exaggeration so large it borders on a despicable lie.
Morale: Don't trust extreme right web sites such as Agora - they may have facts, but better double-check them from other sources first.
If they were teenage boys, then they may have been sexual predators.
If they were teenage girls, then I can't help but think of how that Jew in France who was tortured to death was lured into it by a woman.
If these punks were Amish, we'd wouldn't be making nearly as much fuss. No one owes the benefit of the doubt.
It's quite a coincidence that of all the children they could have picked in that school that managed to single out the ONE who was the daughter of one of the cartoonists. Quite a coincidence, indeed.
Two Danish papers Jyllandsposten and Politiken today have the story that Jens Rohde must have lied about the 12 muslim men seeking out the daughter of a cartoonist in her school.
"I want it published how he has lied", the father of the daughter says. Neither the cartoonist, nor the chairman of the association of Danish Cartoonists Claus Seidel, recognize the information about "12 muslim men". The cartoonist tells Jyllandsposten that the persons were not men, but muslim school girls at 10-11 years of age. There were at most 6-8 girls. What made them seek out the cartoonist's daughter was not the Mohammed drawings but an old prolonged conflict between girls from two schools. It was common girl friends' conflicts caused by trivial disagreements, like talk about who had taken the other one's boyfriend. It is all free imagination on Rohde's part.
It is an incredible story. Rohde is one of the top politicians behind the government in Denmark. Yesterday night he refused to give an explanation on TV. But he will certainly be questioned in parliament about it.
Fact: accordingly to the cartoonist in question is NOT 12 muslim men but 6-8 (maybe muslims)girls at about 11yrs from his dotters school some weeks ago(probably at a time the top of the conflict)... WHY is not determined!
Police have still not comment and J. Rohde states that what he said was a lie.
Spin? I think so!
Disgusting spin!
I´m embarresed to be a dane:(
Finally, there is a reaction from Rohde in the abduction case involving "12 muslim men".
To the Danish press agency Ritzau Rohde says that he "deeply regrets" if he has misunderstood the "Mohammed threat".
This is amazing and can perhaps weaken the Fogh Rasmussen government.
I support the current government since there is no trustworthy alternative at the moment.
But Rohde will be grilled publically in the parliament and I need to hear a very good explanation. What did he expect? Of course exaggerations of this kind will explode in his face! I thought he was smarter than that.
Lying is political suicide and he should think about something else to do in the future.
It's seen before in danish politics. A leader of a big party had to step down because a story of a made-up phone call wouldn't die.
That story has been updated. See here.
Quote:
Four weeks ago, 6-8 Moslem girls showed up at the school of the daughter of one of the cartoonists, asking for "the daughter of the cartoonist who had insulted their prophet". They were turned away at the door.
Someone poopooed big time.
Agora
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