The australian race-rioters are wussies
In the best case of poetic justice ever, the australian rioters who singeld out and attacked middle-easterners at Cronulla beach are afraid for their lives and live in fear of being attacked by middle-easterners in jail after they were denied bail. Oh Muffin... A MONTH ago, the two men were caught on camera with fists flying as they took part in the mob bashing of a defenceless man in Sydney's Cronulla race riots.In court yesterday, it was their turn to be afraid, with one man weeping as he was refused bail and the other revealing he feared for his life in jail. Weeping? Nice! Daniel Paul Kelly, 20, of Engadine in Sydney's south, and Danny Glen Shanahan, 19, of Picton on the southwest outskirts of Sydney, were refused bail yesterday on charges of riot and affray in separate hearings in Sutherland Local Court. Mr Kelly cried in the dock as a magistrate Ross Clugston refused bail after looking at photographs of the bashing of Safi Merhi during the Cronulla riots on December 11. Mr Shanahan apologised to his victim through his lawyer, Lionel Rattenbury, who told the court his client "is living in fear that he might be killed" in jail by men of Middle Eastern appearance. Of middle-eastern appearance. Lol. Even when he is trying to play nice he is profiling. Hehehehe... Mr Rattenbury said Mr Shanahan had been involved in the attack and had punched the victim in the back of the head. "At the end of the day, it was a cowardly act which he is deeply remorseful for," Mr Rattenbury said. "He apologises for his actions against the victim. He wants to warn other people not to get involved in these mass rallies." Mr Rattenbury said his client was "hopeful" of pleading guilty to a charge of affray. He said Mr Shanahan was held in protective custody in jail "where there are a large number of people of Middle Eastern appearance". "He is terrified, living in fear that he may be killed." Ok, anybody feeling bad for this guy? Anybody? No? Ok. Cool! Can we get a "Hell yeah" for the australian justice system? Cause it sure rocks! Hell yeah Australia!
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 1/10/2006 10:51:00 AM
59 Comments:
I'm always amazed how fast people can change their opinions when confronted with real world consequences :D
"The Rise of Middle Eastern Crime in Australia"
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/TimPriest51225.htm
Please read the page to understand why the two rioters were afraid for their lives.
Anonymous,
Your ignorance, intolerance and fear of others is amazing. I read the racist article (the one you linked)and I'm not too impressed!
It's obviously another attempt by right-wingers and others (that I will not name)to create fear and hate towards the Arab minority. Any community has gangs and crime is present everywhere!
How about the bikers gangs (white christians), the mafia and Eastern european gangs....
Ever heard about those or does your racism blind you?
Stop trying to create hate and mistrust towards Arabs to push your own agenda. Fear usually works to scare the ignorant(the republicans know that)but finally people are starting to wake up and realize the right-wing agenda is full of bull!
Did you check the recent polls in the media, the popularity of right-wing politicians and movies like Syriana?????
Bye bye right-wingers, enjoy your last 2 years of political power, you won't be back for at least a decade......Thank the lord!
Answering the last post:
1) I don't consider myself racist and believe it or not I actually have a few drops of Arab blood
2) I am not an American, so your gibberish about right-wingers and Syriana means absolutely nothing to me
3) That article is hosted @FaithFreedom internation which is a site founded by a Persian (racist? Only in your mind, moron!)
4) I have nothing against people of the Arab race. I do however resent the fact that some Muslims treat non-Muslims like filth in their own countries. Australia is one of those cases.
Gang-raping two aussie teens "leb-style" (sic) because they are "white whores" (sic) is racism. To state that Middle Eastern Muslims are disproportionally involved in violent crime in Australia, is - according to that article - the reality.
I am not excusing the idiocy of the rioters when they attacked by-standers simply because they looked Middle Eastern. I was just trying to explain why thousands of Aussies did what they did that day without excusing their behaviour.
Was that simple enough for you, or do you need subtitles?
Yeah, anon... the only people hated more than right wingers is left wingers :P
What the hell does an American movie and an American political party have to do with racism in Autrailia, anyway?
My personal sum-up of the matter:
1. The buttheads who caused trouble in the first place should be put in jail for what I care
2. The racist (wussy) idiots that rioted and attacked not the buttheads but anyone looking like a middle eastern should be thrown in the same jail.
3. Both groups should bash each other to pieces for all I care.
I really see no difference between a muslim/arab troublemaker and a western troublemaker. Unfortunately that's not the case with everyone here.. It's like this:
American terrorist - Oh let the court decide on his fate..
Arab terrorist - F*** THEM ALL, LET THEM ALL DIE!!!!
Geez people, get a life..
To Anonymous,
You said:
"I do however resent the fact that some Muslims treat non-Muslims like filth in their own countries."
My answer: Last time I checked, Arabs did not hold any position of power in Australia, are victims of discrimination in the worplace and other groups such as Australian aboriginals also complain of racism and inequalities originating by the white anglo-Australians?
So who is treating who like filth in their own country again?????
Secondly, you said: "Gang-raping two aussie teens "leb-style" (sic) because they are "white whores" (sic) is racism."
My answer: No, it's simply called a sexual assault. There are many white sexual predators and criminals around the world. Most of the biggest notorious killers and rapists in US and Australia history are actually locals.
Thirdly, you mentionned:
"Middle Eastern Muslims are disproportionally involved in violent crime in Australia, is - according to that article"
My answer: So are other groups such as blacks and aboroginals. In the old days it was Irish and Italian gangs. Newly arrived communities always face such problems. They are caused by lack of work, racism and non-acceptance by the majority. Usually, this tends to dissappear after a couple of generations in the new country.
I do have a major in criminology and social work so I am pretty well informed about the causes of such behavior. I can also provide you evidence and studies to support these realities but you can not. A lack of education and understanding of a situation "as a whole and not only a headline" is the root cause of ignorance. And ignorance leads to racism...
So you're shafted again, stop the hate cause you're contributing to this situation!
Answering the last post:
"Arabs did not hold any position of power in Australia"
Muslims have been treated with silk gloves for a very long time. If any Christian priest advocated mass murder of all non Christians, that would be all over the news. Abu Hamza said it for years on end and no one did anything for years. Qaradawi wants homosexuals to be executed and no one seems to give a shit. In Australia, when those two girls were raped for horus on end, the media tried to forget the clearly racial and religious undertone of the aggressions. The same thing happened in the "train of terror" in southern France. It is systematic.
"So who is treating who like filth in their own country again?????"
Any immigrant group should adapt to the host nation. In this regard, the situation of the Aborigines is completely diferent.
"Most of the biggest notorious killers and rapists in US and Australia history are actually locals."
In Australia, France, Norway and Sweden there have been disproportional attacks of sexual nature (with clear racial and religious motivations) upon local women. I advise you to check Fjordman's blog, he wrote extensively about the subject. There is also an article posted today at FaithFreedom that addresses the issue of sexual abuse in the Middle East (and how those formerly abused eventually become the abusers).
"I can also provide you evidence and studies to support these realities but you can not."
I would welcome any studies you have to present that contradict anything I stated.
"And ignorance leads to racism..."
I agree, that is why knowledge is the key. The issue is not racism because not all Arabs are Muslims. The issue is cultural, ideological and theological. Until you sink that in, you won't be part of the solution, but only part of the problem.
Incidentally, there isn't one single Muslim country where non-Muslims have the civil and religious liberties garanteed for Muslims in ANY western country. When I can't even open a bible in "moderate" Morocco without being sent to jail for three years, when I can't donate money to repair a Church roof in moderate Turkey, and when I can't watch a play about a Muslim that reverts to Christianity without having 5000 Muslim hooligans burning and beating the innocent, then I really think that you should do some soul searching.
To anonymous:
You still can't debate my facts head on, please answer these questions without beein racist:
Is there Italian gangs?
Is there Irish gangs?
Is their Eastern-european crime?
Are their social injustices in Australia?
Are local aboriginals treated with respect?
Is there higher crime rates in other groups such asians and africans?
Is it true or not that throughout the history of world migration, immigrants have always had a hard time adapting and that total integration takes a couple of generations?
And about rapes and sex crimes, aren't the biggest pimps running most brothels and forcing thousands to be sex slaves of eastern european and asian descent...
Like I said before, you're just a stubborn racist red-neck. Wake up to the new realities. Everyone is carzy and fuc* up, not only one group. Educate yourself, travel a bit, learn how to speak many languages and only then will I continue this conversation!
About your "christian priests" not advocating violence statement:
Actually, Pet Roberson has advocated quite openly, on national TV, the death of a famous south american leader and believes sharon is beeing punished for wanting peace. Ahhhh....education!
Like I said, there is good and bad in every race and religion. I'm catholic myself and can write you pages about what was done in the name of religion. You can't just pick on one group. Please do some research and educate yourself, people like you just add to problem by creating more hate!
"About your "christian priests" not advocating violence statement:"
That's not what he said. This is what he said:
"If any Christian priest advocated mass murder of all non Christians, that would be all over the news."
Please don't change somebody's statements and then reply to the modified version :)
He brought up some good points, and you addressed none of them. You changed all of his specific statements into generalizations, and then attacked them all. Rapes done for relgiois or racial reasons are not merely rapes, they are hate crimes AND rapes. You are calling the man racist, for criticizing racism!
"You are calling the man racist, for criticizing racism!"
Don't be too hard on the man. He is still confused thinking why didn't the race card work this time. :)
Criticizing an ideology, criticizing hatred against others who think diferently is not "racism", it is the rational use of a little something called "freedom of speech". He probably doesn't know about that either because that is one of the liberties anyone living in Muslim countries DOES NOT have.
Could you please use names or nicknames, I'm getting confused here guys, although I agree entirely with anonymous at 4:19 I didn't understand whether he agrees or disagrees with Syriana, actually I think it's one of the most intelligent movies ever made.
And anonymous at 3:07 and 6:10, if you're going to deny your obvious racism at least have enough sense not to follow up your denial by more racist statements.
And regarding sexual abuse and crime rate, are you trying to tell me there's more cases of sexual abuse in the arab world than the in the west, and please tell me sir, if crime is nherent in arab blood, why is it that a city like Cairo which has gone the worst kind of urbanization in the last 30 years has such a low crime rate compared to cities which have undergone similar kinds of urbanization like Rio de Janero and Johannesburg (you literally can't walk through the streets there), and for that matter it's way safer than any western city.
Also could you explain why such "brutal thugs" like the arab americans are the ethnicity with the lowest crime percentage in the US.
You guys still haven't answered one of my questions. Are you guys stuck? Do you have nothing to say? Are you incapable of anwering?
I repeat:
Is there Italian gangs?
Is there Irish gangs?
Is their Eastern-european crime?
Are their social injustices in Australia?
Are local aboriginals treated with respect?
Is there higher crime rates in other groups such as asians and africans?
Aren't most brothels and the illegal sex trade controlled by eastern-european gangs all over the world?
Will you ever be able to answer those questions honestly?
The reality is every single ethnic group has its criminals. This is also true about locals...
And you are the one playing the race card by demonizing (and generalizing) all muslims.
As for the history of sexual abuse in the mid-east, let's not start bringing in the history of the Catholic church abuses in Europe and North America...If you wanna go there, we will gladly!
That's it, that's all!
And by the way, last time I checked, all the groups named above were not muslim...
Answer that one guys!
I posted 3.07, 6.10, 7.53, 10.18 and this one.
"And anonymous at 3:07 and 6:10, if you're going to deny your obvious racism at least have enough sense not to follow up your denial by more racist statements."
What racist statements did I make?
"are you trying to tell me there's more cases of sexual abuse in the arab world than the in the west,"
I didn't say that, but if you asked my opinion I would say yes, under Islam victims of sexual abuse have less protection from the society. FaithFreedom is publicizing the story of a 17 year old Iranian about to be hanged for defending herself from three rapists. And before she is hanged, she will probably be raped in prison because "virgins go to heaven".
"if crime is nherent in arab blood"
I never said that, nor do I believe it. Don't put words in my mouth.
"why is it that a city like Cairo which has gone the worst kind of urbanization in the last 30 years has such a low crime rate"
Sex crimes are usually not reported in the Muslim world, unless the perpretrator is a non-Muslim. Why is it that there are so little AIDS studies regarding Muslim populations?
"and for that matter it's way safer than any western city."
For some reason, I seriously doubt that Cairo is safer than the city I reside, but that is pointless.
"Also could you explain why such "brutal thugs" like the arab americans are the ethnicity with the lowest crime percentage in the US."
Probably because the issue is not racial, but cultural, and Arab Americans have not been educated to hate infidels (like Palestinian, Saudi and Iranian children are - you should check MEMRI for further detail).
To Anonymous,
Mohamed is right, you have more chances of beeing robbed, attacked or raped in LA, New York and Chicago compared to Cairo that has twice the population.
Secondly, there has been more abuse in Europe and N.America, more serial killers (almost all are americans)and the only religious institution pleged by a sexual abuse scandal is the Catholic church...
There are scumbags everywhere, not only amoung one group.
And by the way you still haven't answered one of my questions, I guess you can't!
Let me remind you:
Is there Italian gangs?
Is there Irish gangs?
Is their Eastern-european crime?
Are their social injustices in Australia?
Are local aboriginals treated with respect?
Is there higher crime rates in other groups such as asians and africans?
Aren't most brothels and the illegal sex trade controlled by eastern-european gangs all over the world?
Will you ever be able to answer those questions honestly?
If you go to Rio as a tourist, you can't walk in certain areas. They will simply steal your organs and resell them onto the black market. The same has happened in Mexico city and drugs are a real problem in Colombia....
On the opposite end, 8 million tourists have visited Cairo, the pyramids, Alexandria and other beautiful locations in Egypt. Most were extremely satisfied and enjoyed their stay.
Let's take an average of the number of murders and rapes in New York, LA (south central), Rio and Mexico city....and let's compare these numbers to Cairo. C'mon boy, I challenge you!
"and the only religious institution pleged by a sexual abuse scandal is the Catholic church..."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/08/wpak108.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/08/ixworld.html
Acid attack on boy who 'refused sex with Muslim cleric'
By Massoud Ansari in Karachi
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19530
Sex Abuse in Islamic Schools
http://www.memri.org/bin/media.cgi?ID=159006
(from the last link)
'Ghada Jamshir: "Does the Islamic Shari'a authorize mut'ah marriages? Does the Islamic Shari'a authorize mut'ah according to the following classification: ‘Pleasure from sexual contact with her thighs.’ They have: ‘Pleasure from sexual touching. Pleasure from sexual contact with her breasts. Pleasure from a little girl.’ Do you know what ‘pleasure from a little girl’ means? It means that they derive sexual pleasure from a girl aged two, three, or four. '
(it continues and it gets much worse)
You are correct about one thing: there are scumbags everywhere, but only in Islamic regimes do scumbags get protection and the victims are murdered for "honour" purposes. Let me give you a hint: honour killings are not a western habit.
Now, I have better things to do, so keep living in denial. And FYI, it took me less than 30 seconds to find the three links I provided.
Should I send you 100 links about the sex abuse scandals by the Catholic church?
Should I send you links about how the German state and government not only protected but also participated in the holocost?
Should I send you links about the number of happy tourists that visited Egypt last year?
Should I send you links on all the serial killers and sexual predators present in the US?
Should I send you links about:
1)the beating and killing of blacks in New Orleans,
2) police abuse in LA or
3) the millions of native americans that have been killed in the last centuries.
If I were to send all these links, it would surely fill up the whole page....
Like I said before, you are undeducated and full of hate. Scumbags are present everywhere, not only in muslim populations. You are the perfect example!
Stop hating and open your heart to others...Try it out, you'll feel better!
"Should I send you 100 links about the sex abuse scandals by the Catholic church?"
Not necessary, because you claimed that the Catholic Church was the only religious institution plagued by child molestation and I proved you dead wrong.
"Should I send you links about how the German state and government not only protected but also participated in the holocost?"
Not necessary, but I can send you links about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a guy called Al-Husseini (Yasser Arafat's uncle) and how he helped Hitler raise the Muslim Handschar Waffen SS division. Yes, Germany's hands have blood, but so do Islam's, regarding the Holocaust and regarding a lot more events (from the Bani Qurayza in Mohammed's days, to the present day ethnic cleansing in Sudan).
But hey, chill out! I am racist, ignorant, I am probably one of those sons of apes and pigs, so why do you give a shit? Who cares if I presented evidences and articles you can't deal with?
Remember: ignorance is a blessing! Have a pleasant life!
I echo Mohamed's request that you guys at least type some sort of nickname in, just so we can tell who is saying what, at least!
To the anon (anons?) who is/are trying to explain the causes of a race riot without addressing the racial incidents that preceeded the rioting, you're living in a fantasy land. hate crimes are not the same as other crimes. If you want to compare crimes stats in various countries, you should be comparing HATE CRIME stats, because that's what we are discussing here. Not crime. Hate crime. They are not the same thing.
To Anonymous,
An interesting read will show you that it's very easy to dig-up links!
America, Iran and China all have one thing in common: the death penalty
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/12/19/Opinion/Death_penalty_is_no_w.shtml
Violence and terrorism towards abortion clinics (religious fanatism):
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
Police brutality towards minorities in the US (Hate crime):
http://www.hrw.org/about/initiatives/police.htm
US Christian leader goes crazy (Hate again):
http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1170&dept_id=7018&newsid=15891392&PAG=461&rfi=9
Should I go on???
Don't waste your time on him anonymous @ 11:27, this blog is full of his likes, specially if the only group that's ok not to conceal your hate against these days are the arabs and moslems. We've forgotten that the initial reason for this whole argument is the Australia incident, and that anonymous at 3.07, 6.10, 7.53, 10.18 is trying to find an excuse or a reason for beating those lebanese, the only thing I can tell you anon at 3.07 is that if we
were at a different time or place you'd be one of the crowds cheering among a lynch mob in Alabama in the 30's, or an ss officer in a concentration camp in the 40's.
And finally let me ask you a question about the moslem and arab culture, do we have an iota of culpability in any of the following
atrocities?
The crusades, the inquistion, the spanish conquistadors, total extermination of whole cultures and peoples, slavery, colonialism, WWI & II, antisemitism,
the holocaust, stalin's purges, hiroshima & nagazaki, the vietnam war, the khmer rouge, the rwandan genocide etc,
Ugly, right? Would that give you any excuse to completely dismiss and start bashing any of the cultures that produced those crimes? I guess not, you'd consider yourself a stereotyping bigot if you did so, which according to you, you're not, it's just those arabs and moslems that you can't stand, if only they would
just disappear, everything's going to be just wonderful, right?
Actually Germany's hands have 99% of the blood, don't insult my intelligence.
They had the brains, the armies and the political establishment following a racist agenda.
They invaded all of Europe
They believed in supremacy of races and...
They were the mass murderers and the executors.
I guess you're finally starting to admit that there are crazy people in every race and religion, that all immigrants had their gangs at a certain point (the mafia and others) and that, finally, religious extremism is present everywhere, especially when it comes to anti-abortion and anti-gay activists in the states.
Goodbye for now
Mohamed you are right,
There is no point wasting our time. It was a pleasure meeting you, you're the only sane person here.
I'm also of arab descent. I'm a Catholic-Egyptian and I love all faiths and people equally.
Outsiders will always try to divide us, to create conflit between us (christians and muslim)...Little do they know that it won't work. We know the game all too well. We've been living together for centuries and we will keep on getting along great.
We have to forgive the ignorance, hatred and blindness of some of the people on this tribune. They are beeing manipulated by others into believing that we are evil when in fact they are the ones spreading the hate.
This is what happens when they get their news from the same media sources (fox news-cnn), when they speak and understand only one language, when they have never travelled (besides Cancun) and when their government lies to them to keep them in the dark. They lack culture and education.
Have a great day!
"The crusades"
Ah, the Crusades :). Do you even realise that the Crusades were a delayed response to 400 years of Muslim aggression?
That North Africa was once Christian terrirory? And how do you think Islam was imposed, through logical argumentation?
Here, learn something
http://www.persecution.org/newsite/storydetail.php?storycode=134&PHPSESSID=9c5dd006132ed4f0e96bd2ef397a5f4b
'Andalusian Myth, Eurabian reality - inventing the past and denying the present'
Read and do try to learn something from it.
Well, I agree this thread is a waste of time... now we are talking about the crusades and abortion clinics as evidence of hate crimes. How either of those things realtes to hate crimes on BOTH sides of those riots in austrailia is beyong me.
What a useless and non-productive discussion.
Come on, we all know that Islam says never to impose it on other people by force. One question, do you really think there would still be so many coptic Christians in Egypt if the oh-so-brutal Muslims had've rotted their ancestors out centuries ago? Do you really think ancient Christian sites and artifacts would still exist?
True, the muslims went through north Africa. The thing is, why did they enter Egypt in the first place? They were asked for help by the Egyptian (christian) population to free them from the Byzantine rule. Forced adoption of Islam? Come on, you can do better than that..
What a useless and non-productive discussion.
Most religious and political discussions over the internet will have a useless and non-productive aspect to them.. It's something we have to live with..
Though I must say I have encountered only one single religious thread on a forum (with lots of politics in the middle) where there wasn't any kind of immature or stupid discussion. No real flame wars, probably one single insult (and a direct apology afterwards) and diverse and different opinions. The thread went on for 34 pages (and is still running) with dozens of different people discussing. Sadly something like this doesn't happen too often..
Non-mus Anon,
Anyone can go on a racist anti- muslim website and then quote the work of their authors as if they held the "absolute truth" and the "word of god". You're acting in the same way as the people you are denouncing!
Anyone can go on websites managed by hate groups like the KKK, neo-nazis or skinheads and find the same kind of garbage. These sites can also be covers for neo consertive mouvements. Of course the real people running these sites and putting this manipulated and fabricated content will never openly reveal who they are and what their real intentions are.
There are always 2 sides to any argument and many different beliefs and conclusions. A critical mind does not jump to conclusions, analyses different media sources, verifies the credibilty of the authors and tries to learn who is behind a source(or site) and what his/her motive/objectives are.
Academics call this critical thinking and analysis. This is something you obviously lack.
The danger with the web is that anyone can set up a hateful site, manipulate stories, give one version of history (by quoting unverified sources) and try to convince millions who are mentally fragile and have racist tendencies to begin with (people like you!)
I still maintain that no religious group (muslim-christian-jew-or any other)has the monopoly on violence and hateful ideologies. People of all religions have their share of barberism, hate, manipulation and all have blood on their hands.
It's not a christian, jewish or muslim thing. It's a human thing. Humans have always seeked power and domination and have always manipulated religions (which are all supposed to be good)to gain popularity for their corrupt causes.
Immigration before the 1970's was mainly from European christian countries and problems still existed. The Italian had the mafia, the Irish had their gangs and more recently eastern-europeans run the prostitution market.
Let's not forget that this post was about the race riots in Australia and what I believe to be severe inequalities and racism towards the Arab community there.
As a Catholic Egyptian, I will never put the blame on one group or another because I was taught to love, respect and not judge others. Crimes are caused by exclusion, unemployment and povrety. All these things were present with the first wave of immigrants (italians-irish-eastern-europeans) and they are present with the new ones now.
Nothing new, same old same old...Except for the people trying to capitalize on the anger of 911 and the war to turn people against arabs...You know, people like you!
most of the sexual assault that happened in the churches happened inside the church by the head of the church.
the so called moslem clerics are people who give private taution to kids to teach them the koran(just becuase they know how to read arabic,they are not authorized to teach islam,and non happened in the mosques.
about egypt ,how can still 8 million christians exist in egypt if moslems were forcing them to change thier religion.and eve how can all the churches still exist.
don't forget jeruslem how can all the jewish and christian sites are still preserved after more than 800 years of moslem control.
and the crusade ,they were caused by europe kings being scared of the an arabic invasion, and u forgot that the crasauders killed non white christians ,jews and moslems.
can u explain how best of jewsish literature came out of of grenada ,which was moslem.and when christians took grenada back all moslem and jews were either killed or forced to convert to christianity.
can westerns please differ between a personal hate act and a religion.lol thats like me saying christianity is about selling,taking drugs,killing people and big assed bitches because 50 cent puts a cross on his neck
nuff said
the above is my 1st post am not ther same anonymous
nuff said, that wasn't really enough said. And yet, somehow it was too much. What does any of that have to do with race riots (and hate crimes)in Austrailia?
All that bullshit about things that happened a thousand years ago is what FUELS that hatred. Let's talk about what's happening today, eh?
Or, lets not talk about it at all. Because this converstaion seems to be just fueling the bigotry, all around. You want me to link a bunch or news articles covering gang rapes of Christian girls by moslems who were hurling racial slurs and religious epithets during the rapes? I can find HUNDREDS, from the last year alone. Would that help the situation? Because if you think it wouldm I'll do it. Then you can find all the similar cases(?) where Christains have done the same thing to moslem girls. OK?
Btw, nuff said:
"the so called moslem clerics are people who give private taution to kids to teach them the koran(just becuase they know how to read arabic,they are not authorized to teach islam,and non happened in the mosques."
How is it they are authorized to teach kids the Koran, but they are not authorized to teach kids Islam? What exactly are they teaching them about the Koran, that's unrelated to Islam?
I'm not understanding your explanation. At all.
The clerics teach the kids how to read the Koran correctly. Yes, the Koran has its special way to be read (regarding pronounciation and so on). Plus they make them memorize the texts and recite them afterwards. That's all
For the Catholic Egyptian
http://www.fltimes.com/Main.asp?SectionID=38&SubSectionID=121&ArticleID=10730
Torture spurs man to fight for religious freedom
NEWARK — Seven hellish days of torture in an Egyptian prison did nothing to diminish Muslim-turned-Christian Majed El Shafie’s faith in God, but it did ignite a passion for helping other persecuted Christians worldwide.
El Shafie, founder of Toronto-based One Free World Ministries, will share his harrowing story and testimony at 7 p.m. Sunday at Em-manuel United Methodist Church in Newark. Through his ministry, he has reached out to lawmakers in the United States, Canada and Israel to relieve the plight of persecuted Christians in Asia and the Middle East. El Shafie urges love and forgiveness in the face of terrible hardship.
“I decided to forgive those who tortured me, but with forgiveness comes action,” he said. “We have to help the people that are suffering for their beliefs.”
Born into a prominent Muslim family in Cairo, El Shafie seemed destined to go into law. His father and brother are successful attorneys and an uncle serves as a judge on a high court.
“When you’re born into a family like this, you have lots of books on law, justice and freedom,” he said.
While studying law in Alexandria, El Shafie was shocked to see the harsh treatment of Christians. Building churches is illegal in Egypt, he said, and Christians are treated worse than second-class citizens.
Struck by this intolerance, El Shafie began studying the Bible. In 1998, when he was about 20, he converted to Christianity and organized an underground congregation that attracted 24,000 worshippers within two years.
It was literally an underground church, worshipping in caves near the outskirts of the city.
El Shafie ran afoul of the Egyptian government when he appealed for equal rights for Christians. He also took issue with the harsh teachings of the Koran, which the government used to justify persecuting Christians.
“It’s not that they’re bad because they’re Muslims,” he said. “Our problem was with their teaching of Islam.”
He was arrested and confined in Abu Jaabel prison in Cairo, a place locals call “Hell on Earth,” he said. The government charged him with inciting a revolution, trying to change Egypt’s religion to Christianity and “worshipping and loving Jesus Christ.”
While they had him in custody, police tried to get him to name names. El Shafie refused.
“They told me, ‘If you want to play tough, we can play tough,’” he said.
Authorities took El Shafie to an underground portion of the prison and tortured him for seven days straight, he said, noting they shaved his head and held him under scalding hot then freezing cold water. He was hung upside down and beaten with belts, burned by cigarettes and had his toenails torn out.
In a final insult, he said prison guards tied him to a cross and left him there for two days.
“The only thing I could remember was the taste and smell of my own blood,” he said.
El Shafie remembers losing consciousness and waking up in a hospital bed. A guard tipped him off that he was about to be executed, so he escaped out of a back window, he said.
When the government learned of El Shafie’s escape, it issued a $100,000 fatwa on his head, he said.
“My picture was on TV and in the newspapers, so I knew I couldn’t stay in Egypt,” he said, describing an escape reminiscent of a James Bond movie.
He said he rode across the Red Sea on a jet ski, crossed the Sinai Desert and turned himself in to the Israeli government. He remained in Israeli custody for 16 months while the United Nations and Amnesty International investigated his story. He was finally granted political-refugee status and emigrated to Toronto.
El Shafie emerged from his experience a hardened advocate for persecuted Christians.
“This whole thing changed my life,” he said. “I’m not giving up because I know people are going through that.”
Becoming a Christian cost El Shafie his home and his family, who have since disowned him, but he gained a new purpose in life.
Since founding the 1,000-member strong One Free World Ministries, El Shafie has been lobbying for condemnation for regimes that persecute Christians. He has also raised money to send farming equipment to Christian communities in the Middle East and Asia.
Every year, 165,000 Christians are killed for their beliefs, he said, in places like North Korea, China and Saudi Arabia. It’s the duty of all people to recognize this harsh treatment and to do something to stop this suffering, he said.
To all governments that persecute Christians, El Shafie offers this message:
“The persecuted Christians are dying, but they’re still smiling. They’re in a deep mine, but they’re holding the light of the Lord. You can kill the dreamer, but you can’t kill the dream.”
i don't think the no. of christians dieing in arab countries even compare to no. of arabs getting killed by occupation forces in arab countries,and more in held and tortured in cuba.i can get u a lot of cases if u really wanna read.
the thing is we realize that wat is happening in our countries is bad and against islam,u don't have the guts to even think about the shit ur countries is doing.
a christian who knows how to read arabic can teach the koran(just how to read it,even tho he doesn't understand a word of it,wat happens in the poor areas is that people don't undertand this.
How is it they are authorized to teach kids the Koran, but they are not authorized to teach kids Islam? What exactly are they teaching them about the Koran, that's unrelated to Islam?
I'm not understanding your explanation. At all.
the fact is that u don't know shit about islam,ur throwing dirt at religion that u don't understand.that makes u as brainwashed as the men doing bin ladens dirty work
While studying law in Alexandria, El Shafie was shocked to see the harsh treatment of Christians. Building churches is illegal in Egypt, he said, and Christians are treated worse than second-class citizens.
BULLSHIT.
If that's true, please explain to me the many churches in Cairo that are extremely visible to everybody, not mentioning the 10% - 15% christian population of this country. What about the churches that are evem guarded by the police to protect the christians from any clashes.
I have quite a few christian friends here, and NONE of them suffer any sort of persecution, nore do they know of anyone suffering persecution. Some christian priests walk around freely in their robes and wearing huge crosses around their necks.
The Pope of the coptic and armenian church? Egyptian.
Governmental newspapers publish such things around easter, christmas and other christian occasions: "The president sends his regards out to the pope Shenouda and the christian population wishing them merry xmas/happy easter/whatever..
I repeat:
BULLSHIT
"What about the churches that are evem guarded by the police to protect the christians from any clashes."
Have you ever considered why in the hell do churches need police officers to guard them from clashes? Clashes with whom? Other Christians?
You live in denial.
And to the other guy that says that Muslims suffered more from western occupation than the opposite: in India alone, 70 million (MILLION!!) Hindus were slaughtered during the Mughal rule. In Europe, over 1-1.5 million Europeans were sold to slavery to Barbary Coast pirates from the VIII century to the XIX. The number of Black Africans sold to slavery in Muslim countries far exceeds the Black Africans caught in the transatlantic slave trade (why is it that slavery was only abolished in Muslim countries thanks to western interference? - and some never even bothered to abolish it). The estimate? 20 million.
Shall I go on?
You live in denial
LMAO!! Look who's talking X-D
The only violent clashes I've encountered recently were the ones in Alexandria a couple of months ago. Other than that I have never heard of violence between both groups.
Look at it from another point of view: Do you think the government would put police officers to protect a persecuted group? Or wouldn't it make more sense that the police hunts them down?
I really don't understand your logic
"I really don't understand your logic"
Why the need for police officers guarding churches if the relatioship between Muslims and Copts was fine and dandy (as you claim)?
I didn't say that the Egyptian government was persecuting Christians. The Turkish government isn't persecuting Christians either, and yet Christians do not benefit from the same rights that Muslims benefit from (namely concerning freedom of religion and freedom to convert unbelievers).
Let me ask you this: what would happen to a Christian in Egypt who claimed that insulted Muslim beliefs, and what would happen to a Muslim who insulted Christian beliefs?
If your reply is "The same thing", then you are a liar.
Here is another treat:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/hregypt97.html
'Women and Christians face discrimination based on tradition and some aspects of the law. Violence against women is a problem. Terrorist violence against Christians is a problem. The Child Labor Law approved in 1996 increased protections for children, but child labor remains widespread despite the Government's efforts to eradicate it. Abuse by employers continues, and the Government does not enforce the law effectively. The 1996 government decree banning the practice of female genital mutilation (FGM) was challenged in the courts on the grounds that the ban was unconstitutional. The Government ban was upheld by the Supreme Administrative Court on December 28. The Government limits worker rights.
Terrorist groups committed numerous serious abuses. Terrorist groups seeking to overthrow the Government and establish a purportedly Islamic state continued their attacks on police, Coptic Christians, and tourists. Terrorist groups were responsible for the majority of the 155 civilian and police deaths. Major actions included a terrorist attack in February on youths who were attending a church meeting in Abu Qurqas in upper (southern) Egypt; 13 persons were killed and 5 wounded.'
Let me guess: Zionist lies, right? :)
keyword is terrorist.lmao you relise how many terrorists there are in 70 million egyption muslims less thn .01 %,don't tell me you ain't got nazi's in the US.ABOUT SLAVERY IN ARABIC COUNTRIES.SLAVES IN THE WEST AND SLAVES IN ARABIA HAS A DIFFERENT MEANING.slaves in arabia were war prisoners,that were fed and given a place to live and a salary that they can buy thier ownfreedom,not the slaves in the westwho were taken to be animals
From the same site
'Religious Minorities
The Constitution provides that all citizens are equal before the law and prohibits discrimination based on religion. For the most part these constitutional protections are upheld by the Government. However, discrimination against Christians still exists.
The approximately 6 million Coptic Christians are the objects of occasional violent assaults by Muslim extremists. During the year, extremists were responsible for killing at least 23 Egyptian Christians, most in the Minya and Assiyut govenorates, where about 30 to 40 percent of the inhabitants are Christian (see Section 1.a.). Acts of violence also were reported against churches and Coptic-owned businesses; some carried out by extremists, but others committed by ordinary citizens. Rumors of church repairs or building without permits occasionally resulted in anti-Christian rioting by citizens. In one incident in the delta village of Greis, local newspapers reported that two members of the Muslim Brotherhood claimed that a priest was building a monastery without government permission. This false rumor, repeated at evening prayer, incited local residents to set fire to the house on June 18.
Some Christians have complained that the Government is lax in protecting Christian lives and property. Security forces arrest extremists who perpetrate violence against Christians, but some members of the Christian community do not believe that the Government is sufficiently vigorous in its efforts to prevent attacks. They also maintain that the Government does little to correct nonviolent forms of discrimination, including its own.
In general, security forces responded rapidly to attacks against Christians during the year. The Government also thoroughly investigated the incidents, filing charges as appropriate. Following the deadly attack on church youths in Abu Qurqas in February, the Minister of Awqaf and senior Islamic figures traveled to the site to condemn the action and to express condolences.
There were reports of forced conversions of Coptic children to Islam, but even human rights groups find it extremely difficult to determine the actual degree of compulsion used, as most cases involve a Coptic girl converting to Islam to marry a Muslim boy. According to the Government, the girl in such cases must meet with her family, with her priest, and with the head of her church before she is allowed to convert. However, there are credible reports of government harassment of Christian families attempting to regain custody of their daughters, and of the failure of the authorities to uphold the law that states that a marriage of a girl under the age of 16 is prohibited and between the ages of 16 and 21 is illegal without the approval and presence of her guardian.
Government discriminatory practices include: Suspected statistical underrepresentation of the size of the Christian population; anti-Christian discrimination in education; failure to admit Christians into schools of Arabic studies to become Arabic teachers as the curriculum involves study of the Koran; job discrimination in the public sector--the police, the armed forces, and other government agencies; reported discrimination against Christians in staff appointments at universities; and their under representation in government. There are no Coptic governors and no Copts in the upper ranks of the military or police. There were no anti-Christian television programs during the year.
In November more than 100 leading Egyptians, including university professors, members of the People's Assembly and Shura Council, journalists, artists, and NGO activists, signed a public statement that acknowledged discrimination against Christians. This "Declaration to the Nation" ran in Al-Shaab, an opposition newspaper often critical of the Government, which is published by the minority Labor Party. The statement, which Al-Shaab ran for free with 50 signatures on November 7, and again with an additional 50 signatures on November 21, acknowledged that Christians suffer from discrimination, but it stated that the Egyptian people and authorities had to resolve these problems within an "Egyptian framework." The statement also rejected foreign criticism and interference in this area.
Anti-Semitism in the Egyptian press is found primarily, but not exclusively, in the nonofficial press of the opposition parties. The Government has condemned anti-Semitism and advised journalists and cartoonists to avoid anti-Semitism. There have been no anti-Semitic incidents in recent years directed at the tiny Jewish community. '
Have you had enough?
Slavery in Muslim countries:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009139.php
It was not Muslims, but the British who suppressed the Arab slave trade in East Africa. That trade had supplied black slaves for many uses, but particularly sought were male children who were castrated on sight where they were seized. Those who survived the primitive operation (with of course no anesthetic) were then taken by slave coffle from the interior and marched either all the way up to the Muslim slave-markets of Egypt and North Africa from Tripolitania to Mauritania, or taken by dhow to the coast, often to Muscat, and from there to the slave-markets of Arabia, Riyadh and Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, even as far as Constantinople and Smyrna. In “The Hideous Trade” Jan Hogedoorn has calculated that the mortality rate due to the castration and subsequent forced marches, ended with barely 10% of those initially taken actually managing to reach those slave markets alive.
Slavery is SLAVERY, delusional MORON!
^^^The last post was mine (non muslim anon)
And another thing, how on earth do you call someone a "prophet" when that "prophet" owned SLAVES? If he really was the messengger of God, he should have freed them.
Jesus forgave the adulterer about to be stoned to death by saying that "he who has never sinned, may throw the first stone".
Mohammed threw the first stone. I guess he was clean as mountain water (DESPITE having had sex with a 9 year old girl and raping countless others "prisoners of war"). Guess what? Prisoners of war have rights too!
QUOTE: Why the need for police officers guarding churches if the relatioship between Muslims and Copts was fine and dandy (as you claim)?
Better safe than sorry. I don't claim that Muslims and Copts love each other like hell, but I DO claim that they generally don't hate each other to bits either. You base your opinion on bullshit articles, I base my opinion on personal observation.
QUOTE: and yet Christians do not benefit from the same rights that Muslims benefit from (namely concerning freedom of religion and freedom to convert unbelievers).
In Egypt Christians are free to be Christians. So your statement of freedom of religion is useless. About converting people, a scandal breaks out if ANYBODY converts from one religion to the other, regardless from which one to which. And if things worsen and a conflict breaks out, the thing gets media coverage. This has something to do with the egyptians (note: Egyptians, not Muslims or Christians) always believing their religion is right and that turning away from it is a crime.
QUOTE: Let me ask you this: what would happen to a Christian in Egypt who claimed that insulted Muslim beliefs, and what would happen to a Muslim who insulted Christian beliefs? If your reply is "The same thing", then you are a liar.
If anybody insults the other's belief, there will be fury on the other side. What makes the Muslims' reaction seem much bigger is that the Muslims are the large majority. Period. If Muslims were the minority and a Muslim dissed the Christian belief, it would be exactly the same story, but the other way round. I repeat: This has something to do with the Egyptian mentality, not the Muslim or Christian ones.
So yes I say it's practically the same thing, and yes, I am not a liar.
QUOTE: Terrorist groups committed numerous serious abuses. Terrorist groups seeking to overthrow the Government and establish a purportedly Islamic state continued their attacks on police, Coptic Christians, and tourists. Terrorist groups were responsible for the majority of the 155 civilian and police deaths. Major actions included a terrorist attack in February on youths who were attending a church meeting in Abu Qurqas in upper (southern) Egypt; 13 persons were killed and 5 wounded.'
I stress the word terrorist here. There is no difference between a muslim terrorist, christian terrorist, or buddhist one. Terrorists are terrorists, regardless of which faith (or lack of faith).
I really still don't understand your logic
"There is no difference between a muslim terrorist, christian terrorist, or buddhist one."
Actually the diference is that there aren't any Christian terrorists, nor Budhist ones (and before you get started, Timothy McVeigh didn't do Oklahoma because of religion).
And another thing, how on earth do you call someone a "prophet" when that "prophet" owned SLAVES? If he really was the messengger of God, he should have freed them.
Newsflash: Mohammed encouraged freeing slaves. Why do you think he said freeing slaves was a good thing, or let those people who couldn't fast in Ramadan free a slave instead? You really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
Mohammed threw the first stone. I guess he was clean as mountain water (DESPITE having had sex with a 9 year old girl and raping countless others "prisoners of war"). Guess what? Prisoners of war have rights too!
That 9 year old girl was his WIFE. And yes it was normal in that time to get married at that age. And Mohammed NEVER. EVER. raped a prisoner of war. Prisoners of war were to go free if they taught 10 people how to read and write and were to eat and drink from the same stuff the muslims got.
Guess what? You're full of bullshit.
Actually the diference is that there aren't any Christian terrorists
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
LMAO!!!! Oh my God HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
I'm starting to think that you're talking utter gibberish on purpose. Thanks for making my day
"That 9 year old girl was his WIFE. And yes it was normal in that time to get married at that age. And Mohammed NEVER. EVER. raped a prisoner of war."
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/safiyah.htm
'The reason Safiyah rejected the sexual advances of the 57-year-old Muhammad should be obvious to any objective person. I believe most women prefer to mourn than jump into bed with the killer of their father, husband and many relatives on the same day of their death. But the fact that the prophet of Allah could not contain his sexual urges for one day to let this young girl grieve, says a lot of his thinking and moral character.'
' This presented no problem for the prophet as he had his Allah reveal a verse saying it is okay to sleep with women captured in war without marrying them even if they are married.
“And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess…” (Q. 4:24 )
The above verse shows that the Holy prophet did not believe that slaves have any right. You could be a happily married woman living your own life, but if Muhammad and his devout followers attacked your town and captured you, you would lose all your rights, and while your husband was being killed or enslaved you would be given to a Muslim Mujahid who would rape you all with Allah’s blessings. '
I am not the one filled with bs. Enjoy your "religion" and your "profit".
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-13-1.htm#s4
Read the part B "As a wife"
It's interesting how much you think you distort the truth like hell and get away with it
There's something I just remembered now: When we talk of "muslim" and "christian" culprits or "lebanese" and "australian" troublemakers, we're actually making a difference, whereas there is no difference.
And what is the definition of a person that creates differences between certain people whereas these differences don't really exist?
Exactly. A racist.
I'm calling nobody a racist here (Well, at least not everybody), but I think we'd better not talk about different groups. That way we'd only be talking about stuff that really matters and spare ourselves loads of pointless arguments.
Rant over
To all you morons,
Remember me, I'm "to anonymous" also known as "Catholic Egyptian". I've been gone for a day and it seems like I missed a lot of this baseless conversation. It seems like most on this tribune haven't stopped their racist remarks and haven't decided to do some objective research so I decided to come back to give you some education.
First off a litte note to non-muslim Anon, the relationship between muslims and christians in Egypt is generally friendly and based on mutual respect.
Egypt has close to 10 million christians, hundreds of churches, priests, monks and diverse christian groups. Those include Copts, Catholics, Melkites, Maronites (of Lebenese backround)and many others....
All religions live together in peace and harmony. It is normal that in a country of 75 million people that extremist elements exist. Tensions arise sometimes but they are extremely rare. The Alexandria incident was the 1st attack against a church in 4 years. Not to bad for a country that has thousands of churches.
Do the math, it's statistically insignifiqent!
Secondly, the richest man in Egypt is a christian copt by the name of Naguib Sawiris. He owns the largest telecommunications company in the mid-east, africa and the med. He made his money in Egypt and he is christian. So much for persecution.
The minister of finance of Egypt is also christian, his name is Ghali. Not to bad right? The leader of the opposition mouvement "kifaya" is also christian, his name "George Ishrak". He is working with other egyptians (muslims beeing the majority) to push for the democartic reform.
They are all living together, working together and smoking shisa together. The vast majority of Egyptians of all faith are friends. There is a little minority of extremists but they represent only a marginal part of the population as a whole.
It is also important to note that any country (christian-muslim or jewish)has extreme elements in their society. In western nations, attacks happen against abortion clinics, synagogues, cemetary and mosques...Does that signify that all christians are guilty of something?
In Israel, Itsak Rabin was gunned by a extremist orthodox jew because he simply wanted peace!
In the US, Pat Robertson has called for the assasination of a world leader and recently made some pretty hateful comments!
Timothy McVeigh was a christian fundamentalist, wasn't he?
How quicky we are to judge others before cleaning up our own trash.
As a catholic Egyptian, I can personnally tell you that I have family in Egypt, they are very happy, they own businesses and the government has never stopped them from making money. They also go to church every Sunday and walk around with crosses around their neck.
They love Egypt and I love Egypt. Naguib Sawiris loves Egypt (the Coptic billionnaire, Forbes magazine), the Ghali family loves Egypt 9also coptic) and the award winning coptic author Youssef Shahine loves Egypt.
I would also like to mention that the owner of the largest pharmaceutical company in Egypt is also christian (Amoun pharma).
If our persecution was really the work of the majority we wouldn't have been able to accomplish all of that in Egypt.
I consider myself to be a proud christian-Egyptian nationalist. Egyprt is the craddle of civilization and Egyptians of different races and religions have lived together for milleniums without major conflict. We are a model to the rest of you. Guys, you'll never divide us, it won't work.
Sphinx, anon@12:25,8:10,11:06,
For once I agree with programmer Craig that religious arguments are quiet useless, specially if it's with someone who's got a preconcieved and prejudiced view, also sometimes it gets really ugly and hate mongers and bigots
on both sides
start to get completely insensitive to the other religion, which wasn't the initial
intent of the argument in the
first place, and it became this way because Mr.Anon at 3.07 excused an ugly lynching within the context of a religious issue, and unfortunately we got sucked into this argument with that person, and although I salute your valiant and resilient effort in debunking his utter madness, I still don't think that all the reasoning in the world could convert a Nazi into a human being.
If there's anything good to get out of this whole thread, it's knowing the there's still fairminded decent people like, anon @12:25 (catholic egyptian), anon @ 8:10 (catholic), please forgive me for mentioning your
religious affiliation guys
but that's the only way to identify you, also being catholic makes your point more valid in siding with my point of view, people like you along with Twosret, Dania and Sarah really reinforce the idea of our common and fraternal humanity regardless
of religion
(sorry for the corny words but I really mean it :) )
Also anonymous at 12:46, if you're not the same anon @ 12:25 from yesterday, thanks for making me feel really good today after reading your post, thanks brother.
Mohamed,
Yup, I'm the same guy. Thanks for your nice comments they are really appreciated. We're all Egyptian first and this is the only real thing that counts my friend.
Muslims and Christians have lived together in peace for centuries and recent isolated incidents are not representative of our peoples.
Many are trying and have tried to divide us but this strategy will never work. We are aware of our common history and of the great ties that bind us. We are one people that can not be divided. We share the same ethnic and racial backround, speak the same language and only our religions differs.
My family comes from a line of nationalist Egyptians that contributed to the creation of the old Waft party in Egypt.
My grandfather and many of his friends were against the presence of british imperial troops on Egyptian soil and the king that was obviously on the payroll of the British. Their party contributed to the revival of Egyptian nationalism and self-rule and surely enough, the colonizers were forced to leave some years later.
We are catholic but we are Egyptians first. The Waft Nationalist party consisted of Egyptians of all religions that cared about only one thing, the great land of Egypt.
Take care my friend it was an honor speaking to you.
Sincerely,
Catholic Egyptian
Anonymous @ 8:44,
Excellent point about the wafd, I'm for one a true believer that Egypt's only salvation is reimplementing the same liberal ideals offered by the Wafd party and passionatly adopted by the egyptians in the 1923-1952 period, man our full potential was about to be realized if it wasn't cut short. Unfortunately I don't think that most of us realize that.
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