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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Friday, January 13, 2006

Who is responsible for palestinian suffering?

Yeah, the israelis are mentioned, but so are a bunch of other people whose inclusion may surprise you. Check it out!

46 Comments:

At 1/13/2006 07:04:00 PM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Interesting, that it almost includes everyone !!!!!
I think they forgot to add the IRA, but seriously, its quite interesting & a fresh read.

 
At 1/13/2006 07:16:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This site needs to be promoted LOUDLY. It's refreshing, truthful, rational and reasonable.

Not only that.. It meshes exactly with my own thoughts.

 
At 1/14/2006 02:51:00 PM, Blogger Twosret said...

SM,

You are putting up a site by two individuals (admitting they are Israeli Jews) without a one Palestinian member of the site and taking their list as credible?

One sided aren't we :) I don't think the site is credible :)

 
At 1/14/2006 02:51:00 PM, Blogger Twosret said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 1/14/2006 09:10:00 PM, Anonymous Anat from Israel said...

Twosret,

To be precise, they say that most of the people who initiated the project are "American, French and Israeli Jews".

So what? Did you watch the raw rushes from news agencies they show on their website? What do these have to do with any opinion on any side? They are unedited news rushes by the usual agencies including Palestinian photographers. Judge for yourself.

 
At 1/14/2006 09:29:00 PM, Anonymous Anat from Israel said...

And this is what the UN, pressured by the Arab League, postulated in 1976 on the Israeli rehousing project of Sheikh Raduan in Gaza, aimed at proper housing for Palestinians:

"(a) To take effective steps immediately for the return of the refugees concerned to the camps from which they were removed in the Gaza Strip and to provide adequate shelters for their accommodation;"

See for yourslef on the UN website:
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7a2601a1c473558a852560de00494cf7!OpenDocument

This is just one example of facts supported by documents which are not at all Israeli.

Face it, Twosret. They are still refugees simply by Arab demand, and their descendents for ever even if they are only quarter Palestinian. On these grounds they are refused citizenship in Lebanon, for instance; the only ones among the hundreds of millions 20th-century refugees (including about one million Jewish refugees from Arab countries) not to be settled for generations by the host countries.

 
At 1/15/2006 08:13:00 AM, Blogger Twosret said...

Anat from Israel,

You need to calm down because that was a teasing post for SM (if you notices all the smilie faces I put there) it was based on a conversation I had with him.

Let us assume that I wasn't joking with SM, you need to understand that there are two realities by two nations and obviously two historical facts by two nations. I posted a lot of links before to the UN and a long list of resolutions too.

I am still reading this site and trying to figure out their agenda, so I think this debate will be useless because we don't agree on any facts or historical events in previous discussions.

On the "sharon round-up" thread I was about to post all my answers to your claims until I read Dave's post and I think he is absolutely right. We can argue day and night over our PAST.

Despite Mohamed and I bringing up so many valid points you chose to ignore it and move on to another subject. BTW you still owe us an apology for accusing us of lying over the extreme Jews dancing to celebrate Arafat's death.

I understand your historical studies and the itch to kick in and bring up all what you studied from your one sided education. You can't deny me the right to post my opinions and jump on every entry to turn it into an Israeli history lesson.

It is a turn off when all what you do is desperately defending Israel and I desperately defend Palestine. We won't go anywhere.

Let us just move on and talk future. I'm not blaming you for the inflamatory topics by SM. I would rather have a word with him over this privately.

 
At 1/15/2006 03:51:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

the guy who runs that website is not even Jewish, lol... and of course the site couldn't provide good information if its by 2 Joos. I mean come on we know how biased the Jews are and how reliable Abuminah and Ereket are though... so of course if it was by a couple of Joos we of course could write the site off. Good thing two set is on the case and going to talk some sense into Sam.

 
At 1/15/2006 03:59:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anat,
I didn't have the chance to respond to your last post on the "Sharon Update" thread, so let's consider this to be the same thread :)
Although I still disagree with most of the points you've mentioned, and since they're at best debatable(which I'm going to leave the task of refuting them point by point to the invincible Twosert, who'se more well rounded in the facts and definitely more articulate than me), still, one thing you've mentioned that I personally know for sure not to be true, is your adamant insistance that all the jews were expelled from Egypt after 1956. And although I've mentioned the cases of some prominent jews who stayed and flourished in Egypt (I can give you more examples by the way), I know on a personal level you're incorrect, and here's the story.
My grand father's two partners were two jews called Totah and Gootshoato, who were still living in Egypt till the early sixties, through rumors and the rising socialist tendencies of Nasser, almost every egyptian knew that new socialist laws limiting personal property and ownership were about to be imposed, so like many wealthy individuals they started selling their properties and got most of their fortune out of Egypt preparing for the inevitable confiscations, and urged my grand father to do so, who being apolitical and naive dismissed those as impossible rumors, anyway, one day he woke up with his factory siezed, and himself being forced into retirement from running his own factory, because he's already reached retirement age, his money confiscated and half a dozen families sharing his summer homes (the whole doctor zhivago treatment). In the mean time Totah and Goodshoato, although they had already prepared and anticipated this that they were minimally affected, stayed in Egypt till the mid sixsties after which they left voluntarily to Europe for better business environment(pure economical reasons, like many Egyptians did), and a lot of their extended family still lives in Egypt till that day.
If the jews were expelled from the Arab countries, how come there's still though rapidly aging and shrinking jewish community in Egypt, and still vibrant ones in Morroco and Syria?
Also, by some kind a strange coincidence, I was watching yesterday Tim Russert's interview with Mike Wallace regarding his new book "Between me and you", and at one point he talked about a time in the seventies when he was being attacked by the Aipac and Afl, and branded as a self hating jew because he did one piece about the jewish community in Syria and saw and reported that contrary to the conventional wisdom propaganda, the jews in Syria were an integral part of the whole fabric of the society as equally as the moslems and christians, and believe me Anat, Mike Wallace is by no means a pro Syrian anti Israeli guy.
Finally, since I hate to disagree with you all the time :), your remarks about our common similarities couldn't be more true.

 
At 1/15/2006 04:01:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anat,
I didn't have the chance to respond to your last post on the "Sharon Update" thread, so let's consider this to be the same thread :)
Although I still disagree with most of the points you've mentioned, and since they're at best debatable(which I'm going to leave the task of refuting them point by point to the invincible Twosert, who'se more well rounded in the facts and definitely more articulate than me), still, one thing you've mentioned that I personally know for sure not to be true, is your adamant insistance that all the jews were expelled from Egypt after 1956. And although I've mentioned the cases of some prominent jews who stayed and flourished in Egypt (I can give you more examples by the way), I know on a personal level you're incorrect, and here's the story.
My grand father's two partners were two jews called Totah and Gootshoato, who were still living in Egypt till the early sixties, through rumors and the rising socialist tendencies of Nasser, almost every egyptian knew that new socialist laws limiting personal property and ownership were about to be imposed, so like many wealthy individuals they started selling their properties and got most of their fortune out of Egypt preparing for the inevitable confiscations, and urged my grand father to do so, who being apolitical and naive dismissed those as impossible rumors, anyway, one day he woke up with his factory siezed, and himself being forced into retirement from running his own factory, because he's already reached retirement age, his money confiscated and half a dozen families sharing his summer homes (the whole doctor zhivago treatment). In the mean time Totah and Goodshoato, although they had already prepared and anticipated this that they were minimally affected, stayed in Egypt till the mid sixsties after which they left voluntarily to Europe for better business environment(pure economical reasons, like many Egyptians did), and a lot of their extended family still lives in Egypt till that day.
If the jews were expelled from the Arab countries, how come there's still though rapidly aging and shrinking jewish community in Egypt, and still vibrant ones in Morroco and Syria?
Also, by some kind a strange coincidence, I was watching yesterday Tim Russert's interview with Mike Wallace regarding his new book "Between me and you", and at one point he talked about a time in the seventies when he was being attacked by the Aipac and Afl, and branded as a self hating jew because he did one piece about the jewish community in Syria and saw and reported that contrary to the conventional wisdom propaganda, the jews in Syria were an integral part of the whole fabric of the society as equally as the moslems and christians, and believe me Anat, Mike Wallace is by no means a pro Syrian anti Israeli guy.
Finally, since I hate to disagree with you all the time :), your remarks about our common similarities couldn't be more true.

 
At 1/15/2006 04:02:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anat,
I didn't have the chance to respond to your last post on the "Sharon Update" thread, so let's consider this to be the same thread :)
Although I still disagree with most of the points you've mentioned, and since they're at best debatable(which I'm going to leave the task of refuting them point by point to the invincible Twosert, who'se more well rounded in the facts and definitely more articulate than me), still, one thing you've mentioned that I personally know for sure not to be true, is your adamant insistance that all the jews were expelled from Egypt after 1956. And although I've mentioned the cases of some prominent jews who stayed and flourished in Egypt (I can give you more examples by the way), I know on a personal level you're incorrect, and here's the story.
My grand father's two partners were two jews called Totah and Gootshoato, who were still living in Egypt till the early sixties, through rumors and the rising socialist tendencies of Nasser, almost every egyptian knew that new socialist laws limiting personal property and ownership were about to be imposed, so like many wealthy individuals they started selling their properties and got most of their fortune out of Egypt preparing for the inevitable confiscations, and urged my grand father to do so, who being apolitical and naive dismissed those as impossible rumors, anyway, one day he woke up with his factory siezed, and himself being forced into retirement from running his own factory, because he's already reached retirement age, his money confiscated and half a dozen families sharing his summer homes (the whole doctor zhivago treatment). In the mean time Totah and Goodshoato, although they had already prepared and anticipated this that they were minimally affected, stayed in Egypt till the mid sixsties after which they left voluntarily to Europe for better business environment(pure economical reasons, like many Egyptians did), and a lot of their extended family still lives in Egypt till that day.
If the jews were expelled from the Arab countries, how come there's still though rapidly aging and shrinking jewish community in Egypt, and still vibrant ones in Morroco and Syria?
Also, by some kind a strange coincidence, I was watching yesterday Tim Russert's interview with Mike Wallace regarding his new book "Between me and you", and at one point he talked about a time in the seventies when he was being attacked by the Aipac and Afl, and branded as a self hating jew because he did one piece about the jewish community in Syria and saw and reported that contrary to the conventional wisdom propaganda, the jews in Syria were an integral part of the whole fabric of the society as equally as the moslems and christians, and believe me Anat, Mike Wallace is by no means a pro Syrian anti Israeli guy.
Finally, since I hate to disagree with you all the time :), your remarks about our common similarities couldn't be more true.

 
At 1/15/2006 04:07:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anat,
I didn't have the chance to respond to your last post on the "Sharon Update" thread, so let's consider this to be the same thread :)
Although I still disagree with most of the points you've mentioned, and since they're at best debatable(which I'm going to leave the task of refuting them point by point to the invincible Twosert, who'se more well rounded in the facts and definitely more articulate than me), still, one thing you've mentioned that I personally know for sure not to be true, is your adamant insistance that all the jews were expelled from Egypt after 1956. And although I've mentioned the cases of some prominent jews who stayed and flourished in Egypt (I can give you more examples by the way), I know on a personal level you're incorrect, and here's the story.
My grand father's two partners were two jews called Totah and Gootshoato, who were still living in Egypt till the early sixties, through rumors and the rising socialist tendencies of Nasser, almost every egyptian knew that new socialist laws limiting personal property and ownership were about to be imposed, so like many wealthy individuals they started selling their properties and got most of their fortune out of Egypt preparing for the inevitable confiscations, and urged my grand father to do so, who being apolitical and naive dismissed those as impossible rumors, anyway, one day he woke up with his factory siezed, and himself being forced into retirement from running his own factory, because he's already reached retirement age, his money confiscated and half a dozen families sharing his summer homes (the whole doctor zhivago treatment). In the mean time Totah and Goodshoato, although they had already prepared and anticipated this that they were minimally affected, stayed in Egypt till the mid sixsties after which they left voluntarily to Europe for better business environment(pure economical reasons, like many Egyptians did), and a lot of their extended family still lives in Egypt till that day.
If the jews were expelled from the Arab countries, how come there's still though rapidly aging and shrinking jewish community in Egypt, and still vibrant ones in Morroco and Syria?
Also, by some kind a strange coincidence, I was watching yesterday Tim Russert's interview with Mike Wallace regarding his new book "Between me and you", and at one point he talked about a time in the seventies when he was being attacked by the Aipac and Afl, and branded as a self hating jew because he did one piece about the jewish community in Syria and saw and reported that contrary to the conventional wisdom propaganda, the jews in Syria were an integral part of the whole fabric of the society as equally as the moslems and christians, and believe me Anat, Mike Wallace is by no means a pro Syrian anti Israeli guy.
Finally, since I hate to disagree with you all the time :), your remarks about our common similarities couldn't be more true.

 
At 1/15/2006 04:11:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Anat,
I didn't have the chance to respond to your last post on the "Sharon Update" thread, so let's consider this to be the same thread :)
Although I still disagree with most of the points you've mentioned, and since they're at best debatable(which I'm going to leave the task of refuting them point by point to the invincible Twosert, who'se more well rounded in the facts and definitely more articulate than me), still, one thing you've mentioned that I personally know for sure not to be true, is your adamant insistance that all the jews were expelled from Egypt after 1956. And although I've mentioned the cases of some prominent jews who stayed and flourished in Egypt (I can give you more examples by the way), I know on a personal level you're incorrect, and here's the story.
My grand father's two partners were two jews called Totah and Gootshoato, who were still living in Egypt till the early sixties, through rumors and the rising socialist tendencies of Nasser, almost every egyptian knew that new socialist laws limiting personal property and ownership were about to be imposed, so like many wealthy individuals they started selling their properties and got most of their fortune out of Egypt preparing for the inevitable confiscations, and urged my grand father to do so, who being apolitical and naive dismissed those as impossible rumors, anyway, one day he woke up with his factory siezed, and himself being forced into retirement from running his own factory, because he's already reached retirement age, his money confiscated and half a dozen families sharing his summer homes (the whole doctor zhivago treatment). In the mean time Totah and Goodshoato, although they had already prepared and anticipated this that they were minimally affected, stayed in Egypt till the mid sixsties after which they left voluntarily to Europe for better business environment(pure economical reasons, like many Egyptians did), and a lot of their extended family still lives in Egypt till that day.
If the jews were expelled from the Arab countries, how come there's still though rapidly aging and shrinking jewish community in Egypt, and still vibrant ones in Morroco and Syria?
Also, by some kind a strange coincidence, I was watching yesterday Tim Russert's interview with Mike Wallace regarding his new book "Between me and you", and at one point he talked about a time in the seventies when he was being attacked by the Aipac and Afl, and branded as a self hating jew because he did one piece about the jewish community in Syria and saw and reported that contrary to the conventional wisdom propaganda, the jews in Syria were an integral part of the whole fabric of the society as equally as the moslems and christians, and believe me Anat, Mike Wallace is by no means a pro Syrian anti Israeli guy.
Finally, since I hate to disagree with you all the time :), your remarks about our common similarities couldn't be more true.

 
At 1/15/2006 04:38:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excellent info.Unfortunately, most people have already made up their minds on this issue,and no amount of facts will persuade them otherwise.

 
At 1/16/2006 09:34:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

I'm sorry guys, I'm really not that obssesive compulsive, it's just every time I've tried to post it, it just wouldn't appear on the thread, so I had to send it over and over and over, read the first one only :)

 
At 1/17/2006 12:50:00 AM, Anonymous Pedro Zuquete said...

I'm part of the Second Draft Team. I'm neither Jew, French or American. I'm Portuguese. Is the site more reliable now?

 
At 1/17/2006 01:25:00 AM, Blogger Richard Landes said...

I admire the vigor of the discussion, but I'm sorry the substantive issues of our post on Palestinian Suffering weren't addressed much.

Our argument is that the real victimizers of the Palestinian people are the Arab leaders (including Palestinian leaders), who will sacrifice the welfare of their people to regain their "honor." The implications of that argument are that

a) people who care about the Palestinians and want to solve the problem need to look realistically at why Arab Leaders have consistently refused a win-win solution that might have benefitted their people at the cost of their honor;

b) "supporting" the Palestinians, by empowering the Arab leaders who victimize them and drug them with a scapegoating narrative that demonizes Israel is really condemning them to continued suffering;

c) a good place to start is by ceasing to give credit to their scapegoating of the Israelis, which hides the role of these "leaders" as victimizers and empowers them as "representatives" of the very people they afflict.

 
At 1/17/2006 05:43:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

THREESET said the site is run by JOOOOS until further clearance so those people claiming to be running the site must be Jooo plants!!

Mr. Landes (or is it Landowitz?) and Pedro (is that Pedrovitz?)... you are either -

1) Lying
2) Under the spell of Joos
3) Imposters.

TWO/THREE/FOUR SET indicated that until further notice the site is run by Jooos and has an ""agenda"" so excuse us if we are suspicious of everything you tell us.

Can you provide a picture of your uncircumsized penus?

 
At 1/17/2006 09:30:00 PM, Blogger Twosret said...

Pedro and Richard,

I have seen that your argument brings up a lot of responsibility on the Palestinians despite that they are the occupied not the occupiers.

Can you please provide me with your insight on the Israeli occupation, aggression and the Justice for the Palestinian people by returning to their land?.

Pedro, if you read carefully my comment to Anat from Israel you will understand that there was a joke between Sandmonkey and I.

P.S. Don't worry about Scorekeeper he drinks too much :)

 
At 1/18/2006 01:47:00 AM, Anonymous Two/Three Ignorance said...

Richard isn't worried about me thanks. He met me already which is why I found it really amusing while you sit there trying to "show your intelligence" and then make a racist insinuation that they're Israeli Jews running the site.

However, I myself want him to prove he is not a Joooo or has a Joooo agenda.
I have not witnessed whether or not he is circumcized.
And I also note how he apparently 'ignored' the question.

Two/Three mayby you can check on that too and get back to Sandman on that one as well.

 
At 1/18/2006 10:01:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Richard, Pedro, Anat & Twosret, please read this email from Rachel Corrie sent to her parents a few days before her skull was crushed by an Israeli buldozer, don't be 100% objective, no one can, I can't twosret can't and Anat can't, just pause and think what purpose does it serve to demolish homes, confiscate lands, destroy wells and collectively and discreminently punish an entire population, and who is doing this before you again blame the victim.
And Scorekeeper, please act like a human being at least once, and keep the nice words that you most probably have for Rachel Corrie to yourself, she's not with us anymore.

"Excerpts from an e-mail from Rachel Corrie to her family on
>February 7, 2003 from the Gaza Strip.
>
>I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I
>still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult
>for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write
>back to the United States--something about the virtual portal into
>luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed
>without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying
>army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think,
>although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children
>understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was
>shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many
>of the children murmur his name to me, "Ali"--or point at the posters of
>him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my
>limited Arabic by asking me "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they
>laugh when I say "Bush Majnoon" "Sharon Majnoon" back in my
>limited Arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon
>is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the
>adults who have the English correct me: Bush mish Majnoon... Bush
>is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say "Bush is a tool", but I
>don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-
>olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power
>structure than I was just a few years ago--at least regarding Israel.
>
>Nevertheless, I think about the fact that no amount of reading,
>attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of
>mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here.
>You just can't imagine it unless you see it, and even then you are
>always well aware that your experience is not at all the reality: what
>with the difficulties the Israeli Army would face if they shot an unarmed
>US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the
>army destroys wells, and, of course, the fact that I have the option of
>leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a
>rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my
>hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean.
>Ostensibly it is still quite difficult for me to be held for months or years
>on end without a trial (this because I am a white US citizen, as opposed
>to so many others). When I leave for school or work I can be relatively
>certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting half way
>between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint-a soldier
>with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and
>whether I can get home again when I'm done. So, if I feel outrage
>at arriving and entering briefly and incompletely into the world in
>which these children exist, I wonder conversely about how it would
>be for them to arrive in my world.
>
>They know that children in the United States don't usually have their
>parents shot and they know they sometimes get to see the ocean.
>But once you have seen the ocean and lived in a silent place, where
>water is taken for granted and not stolen in the night by bulldozers,
>and once you have spent an evening when you haven't wondered if
>the walls of your home might suddenly fall inward waking you from
>your sleep, and once you've met people who have never lost anyone--
>once you have experienced the reality of a world that isn't surrounded
>by murderous towers, tanks, armed "settlements" and now a giant
>metal wall, I wonder if you can forgive the world for all the years of
>your childhood spent existing--just existing--in resistance to the
>constant stranglehold of the world's fourth largest military--backed by
>the world's only superpower--in it's attempt to erase you from your
>home. That is something I wonder about these children. I wonder
>what would happen if they really knew.
>
>As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah, a city of about
>140,000 people, approximately 60 percent of whom are refugees--
>many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Rafah existed prior
>to 1948, but most of the people here are themselves or are descendants
>of people who were relocated here from their homes in historic
>Palestine--now Israel. Rafah was split in half when the Sinai returned
>to Egypt. Currently, the Israeli army is building a fourteen-meter-high
>wall between Rafah in Palestine and the border, carving a no-mans land
>from the houses along the border. Six hundred and two homes have
>been completely bulldozed according to the Rafah Popular Refugee
>Committee. The number of homes that have been partially destroyed
>is greater.
>
>Today as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood,
>Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border,
>"Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. Followed by waving and
>"what's your name?". There is something disturbing about this
>friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we
>are all kids curious about other kids: Egyptian kids shouting at strange
>women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from
>the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going
>on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli
>kids in the tanks anonymously, occasionally shouting-- and also
>occasionally waving--many forced to be here, many just aggressive,
>shooting into the houses as we wander away.
>
>In addition to the constant presence of tanks along the border and
>in the western region between Rafah and settlements along the coast,
>there are more IDF towers here than I can count--along the horizon,at
>the end of streets. Some just army green metal. Others these strange
>spiral staircases draped in some kind of netting to make the activity
>within anonymous. Some hidden,just beneath the horizon of buildings.
>A new one went up the other day in the time it took us to do laundry
>and to cross town twice to hang banners. Despite the fact that some of
>the areas nearest the border are the original Rafah with families who
>have lived on this land for at least a century, only the 1948 camps in
>the center of the city are Palestinian controlled areas under Oslo. But
>as far as I can tell, there are few if any places that are not within the
>sights of some tower or another. Certainly there is no place
>invulnerable to apache helicopters or to the cameras of invisible
>drones we hear buzzing over the city for hours at a time.
>
>I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here,
>but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great
>deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza." Gaza is
>reoccupied every day to various extents, but I think the fear is that the
>tanks will enter all the streets and remain here, instead of entering
>some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to
>observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't
>already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of
>the entire region then I hope they will start.
>
>I also hope you'll come here. We've been wavering between five
>and six internationals. The neighborhoods that have asked us for
>some form of presence are Yibna, Tel El Sultan, Hi Salam, Brazil,
>Block J, Zorob, and Block O. There is also need for constant night-
>time presence at a well on the outskirts of Rafah since the Israeli
>army destroyed the two largest wells. According to the municipal
>water office the wells destroyed last week provided half of Rafah's
>water supply. Many of the communities have requested internationals
>to be present at night to attempt to shield houses from further
>demolition. After about ten p.m. it is very difficult to move at night
>because the Israeli army treats anyone in the streets as resistance
>and shoots at them. So clearly we are too few.
>
>I continue to believe that my home, Olympia, could gain a lot and offer
>a lot by deciding to make a commitment to Rafah in the form of a
>sister-community relationship. Some teachers and children's groups
>have expressed interest in e-mail exchanges, but this is only the tip of
>the iceberg of solidarity work that might be done. Many people want
>their voices to be heard, and I think we need to use some of our
>privilege as internationals to get those voices heard directly in the US,
>rather than through the filter of well-meaning internationals such as
>myself. I am just beginning to learn, from what I expect to be a very
>intense tutelage, about the ability of people to organize against all odds,
>and to resist against all odds.
>
>Thanks for the news I've been getting from friends in the US. I just
>read a report back from a friend who organized a peace group in
>Shelton, Washington, and was able to be part of a delegation to the
>large January 18th protest in Washington DC. People here watch the
>media, and they told me again today that there have been large
>protests in the United States and "problems for the government" in the
>UK. So thanks for allowing me to not feel like a complete polyanna
>when I tentatively tell people here that many people in the United States
>do not support the policies of our government, and that we are learning
>from global examples how to resist.

 
At 1/18/2006 11:44:00 AM, Anonymous TWOTHREESET ON THE CASE said...

I wouldn't comment on Rachel Corrie that entire topic has been hashed and rehashed 100 times over.

What I want to know is when TWO THREE SET is going to check like in Porky's if Landes (Landovitz) and Pedro (Pedrofeld) are circumsized or are Mossad plants.

This is very interesting to me.

 
At 1/18/2006 01:04:00 PM, Blogger Richard Landes said...

it's hard for me, a relative newcomer, to figure out who's kidding and who's not, so i don't think i'll respond specifically to posts.

our points at the site are

a) the information that we get about israeli cruelty and palestinian victimization is, to a degree we can't judge until we do a serious review, skewed by a palestinian media dedicated to propaganda and an inexcusably credulous western mainstream media. the evidence for the fakes and the credulity are both there at the site. unless you want to accuse us of staging the stagings -- wow, what a task -- you need to confront the evidence.

you can say it's only one day, even tho, in the movie on Pallywood we show stuff from Jenin 2002, and i'd agree, we can't yet know how pervasive it is. (i do think the footage shows not extraordinary, but everyday behavior, but we can investigate that if the MSM wd let us see their rushes.)

b) the image of the wicked israeli occupation, which drove rachel corrie to protect the houses of suicide terrorists, but not to condemn the terrorism, skews our understanding of the forces at play. look at how people vote with their feet not their mouths. when the israelis wanted to transfer sovereignty of certain arab villages in the galilee to palestinian control during the oslo negotiations, the inhabitants made it clear they would rather be ruled by israeli law than palestinian.

it may bruise our "politically correct" sensibilities, but the palestinians under israeli "occupation" up until the first intifada were doing better than arabs in any arab country (but oil-rich ones) in terms of the basic quality of life issues -- low infant mortality, high life expectancy, services, income, etc.
even after five years of the allegedly unbearably brutal period following the outbreak of the 2000 war, when the border opened up btw gaza and egypt this summer, egyptian women were eager to marry palestinian men to increase their economic condition living in gaza, rather than in egypt... "an opportunity not to be missed."

the shameful condition revealed by modernity is that arabs are better off under the sovereignty of non-arabs than under their own govts. that's an observation that supports our point about palesstinian suffering -- their own elites are the worst oppressors. but, as churchill said, the arabs don't mind being oppressed as long as it's by one of their own. honor, shame. i'm teaching a course on it.

c) the main point of our post on p suffering is not that
the israelis haven't contributed to it. the problem is, the israeli contribution comes in the context of a war that the arabs have declared on the very existence of israel. stop that war, and the israeli oppression drops dramatically. will that end palestinian suffering. i doubt it. indeed it may be just the beginning. ask the algerians or the sudanese.

again, we're not saying the occupation is good, but were it not for the absolute zero-sum gaime the arab leadership has been playing with the israelis (eg the 3 no's of khartoum in the summer of 1967), there wdn't be an occupation. most israelis don't want it. there's just no responsible leadership to deal with.

people who care about the palestinians -- rachel corrie -- would do better to work with them on building a responsible civil society. but that would mean confronting people who really will do you in if you cross them.

final note on rachel corrie. the conditions surrounding her death are not at all clear. the photos we have of it are clearly not what they present themselves to be (two different bulldozers, two different sites). i'm not saying she wasn't killed by an israeli bulldozer, but there's no independent evidence that she was killed on purpose.

as with muhammed al durah (who, it looks like, was not killed in the footage we have, and almost surely not by israeli fire on purpose), the accusation of intention is a libel intended to arouse indignation and hatred. that's pallywood's job. and most people are suckers for it.

rl

 
At 1/18/2006 01:30:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Hey Scorekeeper you gutter sewage, twosert ignored the question because she doesn't take your vulgarity and ugliness seriously.

 
At 1/18/2006 04:24:00 PM, Anonymous SCOREKEEPER ON THE CASE said...

Mohammed,

You are an extremely bright and respectful individual and thus I do apologize if your pure Islamic ears were offended by the word penus, circumsized or Jew.

There was no harm intended on my part. And I I do believe based on the gravity of Israeli and Jewish war and conspiracy crimes that it is completely understandable how these words could be very offensive to you.

Getting back to Mr. Landes

I would however truly like to know if in fact this Mr. Landes character is -

1) Real or Fictional
2) The man I met was him or a Mossad plant
3) Is he secretly Jewish but a practicing Xtian as a front?
4) Is his wife or any relative or close friend a practicing or by family a Jew and thus he is unduly influenced by their power and his site therefore biased and unreliable as Twoset pointed out.

This could simply be all cleared up if he would simply submit to having his shmeckel checked by a licensed Urologist - but one who is of course NOT Jewish -and-
then submits to a lie detector test.

If and until he complete all of the above we should simply believe that he is Jewish himself or by fiat.

In which case Two/three Set's excellent analysis and points are to be taken extremely serioulsy.

 
At 1/18/2006 04:46:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Richard Landes, you seem like a reasonable person, but please, don't you think that nothing weakens your argument or discredits you than having this lunatic on your side or speaking on your behalf.

 
At 1/18/2006 08:46:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

A lunatic?
Do you think Sandman would be safe at a potential lunch with me?
I must remember to take my medication beforehand and remember NOT to use the word penus, circumsizion or Jew. I understand he is quite progressive but these words are still very offensive words for any Arab person to hear.

And yes it is dangerous for me to speak for him.
We are both Jew sympathizers and you know those Zionists are all thinking alike. We must keep this under raps lest Inspector Two/Three/Four Set is on the case.

 
At 1/18/2006 09:08:00 PM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

On a serious note.

Richard -

My replies are to Twosret who "discovered" that your site was run by 2 Israeli Jews and THUS of course NOT credible. Of course, quoting Ali Abuminah is though. :-)

I met you in NYC so her "discovery" is pretty amusing but not surprising.

In regards to your reply above -

Your eloquently put points are on the $ in my opinion and pretty much what Abu Toameh tries to state in his talks, speeches and articles, while trying to stay somehwhat under the radar and thus ALIVE.

Also, the state of Gaza and the West via 1965 versus 1985 or 95 is an astounding difference.

Hope to meet you again and next time Solomon as well if he can stay away from bad food and out of the bathroom all night. :-)
Take care.

Mike

PS I am also fond of Paula.

 
At 1/18/2006 09:14:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mohamed,

The Puppet Scorekeeper is enjoying the show and giving us live comedy show. Please let him get X rated and show how idiotic he is.

A clownkeeper fan

 
At 1/18/2006 09:24:00 PM, Blogger Twosret said...

Richard,

Thanks for your reply, I disagree with your views simply because it is one sided. While reading your site I kept wondering why there isn't any Palestinians on your team? after all you claim to investigate the truth aren't you? while we are at it...which truth are you trying to investigate?

Here is what your introduction states:-
"Because those of us working on the opening dossier at this site are primarily American, French and Israeli Jews, that constitutes the initial core inspired to put up this website and to manage the material that comes in about Pallywood."

On the other hand I see that you refer on your site to the book of The chief rabbi of Britain and the Commonwealth "Dignity of Difference" is there are references of books of arab intellectuals? If so can you kindly give me a link to your site that refers to ALL point of views?

Thanks in advance,
Twosret

 
At 1/18/2006 09:53:00 PM, Blogger Twosret said...

Mohamed,

In reply to the situation of Oslo and Camp David and the situation of the Palestinians let us back up and quote again Golda's famous statement "there are no Palestinians" and look at facts and numbers.

Israel had two options, 1) ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and 2) apartheid. After World War II, ethnic cleansing was no longer an option for Israel, the only choice was apartheid as the best option to achieve its goal.

Israel saw the Oslo Accords as a mechanism to impose an apartheid system on the Palestinians. Israel began implementing apartheid by agreeing to give the PLO control over 13 disconnected localities that account for only 17.2 % of the West Bank while the remaining 82.8 % remained under Israel’s exclusive security jurisdiction. The PLO, would act as a “security sub-contractor” for Israel, responsible for the people but not the land.

Since the signing of the Oslo Accords there has been a steady deterioration in the quality of Palestinian daily life. Dozens of Israeli checkpoints ring Palestinian cities and villages, severely restricting Palestinian movement. The restrictions caused a decline in the quality of goods and services. Freedom of religion was also restricted as Israel isolated Jerusalem and its holy places from the rest of the West Bank and Gaza.

Parallel to this apartheid system, Israel carried out an “unprecedented” colonization campaign. From 1993-2000, the settler population in the occupied Palestinian territories doubled from approximately 200,000 to 400,000 Jewish settlers, including in East Jerusalem. Successive Israeli governments encouraged Jews to settle in the Occupied Territories through a series of incentives. Spacious homes in the settlements were sold at a reduced price compared to cramped homes in major Israeli cities. Jews living in a settlement receive a 7 % income tax reduction.

The culmination of the apartheid system came during the 2000 Camp David summit. If the Palestinians had accepted the proposals at Camp David, the Palestinian territories would have been permanently divided into four separate areas, entirely controlled by Israel. Palestinians would have no control over the borders, water resources, and airspace. “The Camp David process would have enlarged the prison cells Palestinians are living in but would not have let them out of prison,’’
When the Oslo Accords reached a dead end, Israel decided to replace its apartheid option with the ethnic cleansing option. Here are the statistics, in 22 months of violence, almost 2,000 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli army. Approximately 1 percent of the population—35,000 Palestinians—have been killed or injured. Moreover, 30 % of Palestinian children under the age of six suffer from chronic malnutrition and another 21% suffer from severe malnutrition. The malnutrition rates are equivalent to those in sub-Saharan Africa and Bangladesh. However, in those areas the cause is environmental or economical. In the Palestinian territories, Israel is deliberately starving the people. “The idea is to make life so horrendous that people will leave,”.
In case that does not drive Palestinians out, Israel has pressed ahead with assassinations, home demolitions, expulsions, and harsh closures that have left the Palestinians in dire economic conditions. Some 70% of families live in poverty and unemployment has reached 50 %.
The Western media that Richard is talking about has also played a role in denying the conflict its legal basis by reversing the language used to characterize the situation. The word occupation, has been replaced by the word dispute. The conflict has been termed as one of violence not resistance to occupation. “If there is no occupation, international law does not apply’

 
At 1/18/2006 10:25:00 PM, Blogger Twosret said...

Richard,

I have a lot to reply to in your post but let me reply to one quote at a time.

You said....

"the shameful condition revealed by modernity is that arabs are better off under the sovereignty of non-arabs than under their own govts."

Sovereignty of non-arabs? like who?What other Govts. are you talking about? let us take Egypt for instance and it's occupiers Great Britain and France to name a fewas an example, you are looking at a nation that has been occupied by the biggest countries in the world (till 1950's) that sucked up our resources, enslaved us and deprived our children from education and decent living.

Current Gov. like Mubarak the Puppet of America is the free Gov. you are talking about?.

The shame should be put on those countries that have nothing but bloody history. The shame should be on the occupier not the occupied.

You said

"but, as churchill said, the arabs don't mind being oppressed as long as it's by one of their own. honor, shame. i'm teaching a course on it."

Wasn't Churchil the occupier of India who said:-

"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes."

Churchill you are refering to the staunch advocate of foreign intervention, declaring that Bolshevism must be "strangled in its cradle".

Churchill who claimed that the Fascism of Benito Mussolini had "rendered a service to the whole world,"

Churchill who denigrated the father of the Indian independence movement, Mahatma Gandhi, as "a half-naked fakir" who "ought to be laid, bound hand and foot, at the gates of Delhi and then trampled on by an enormous elephant with the new viceroy seated on its back".

I can't even believe you have the audicty to quote Churchill.

Shame Shame indeed!

 
At 1/18/2006 11:31:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Twosret,

Wa7yat Omi Enti Ragel bent Ragel. Good for you.

Hicham-Morocco

 
At 1/19/2006 03:10:00 AM, Blogger Richard Landes said...

Twosret wrote:
Thanks for your reply, I disagree with your views simply because it is one sided. While reading your site I kept wondering why there isn't any Palestinians on your team? after all you claim to investigate the truth aren't you? while we are at it...which truth are you trying to investigate?

i'd be delighted to have some palestinians or other arabs working with us. i made some efforts in this direction, speaking with a number of people. as one person said, when i gave him a copy of our piece on al durah and told him to keep it confidential -- "are you kidding? al durah is a martyr, if i were caught with this, i'd be dead." even arabs who might agree with us are under terrible pressure not to "wash their dirty laundry in public."

if you have some suggestions of people who would be interested, i'd be very happy to be in touch. i do not think the work we're doing is for israel against the palestinians, but that there is a positive-sum relationship possible. we have postings on both self criticism and game theory at the same page as the palestinian suffering essay that explain further.

http://www.seconddraft.org/essays_media_reflections.php

Here is what your introduction states:-
"Because those of us working on the opening dossier at this site are primarily American, French and Israeli Jews, that constitutes the initial core inspired to put up this website and to manage the material that comes in about Pallywood."

On the other hand I see that you refer on your site to the book of The chief rabbi of Britain and the Commonwealth "Dignity of Difference" is there are references of books of arab intellectuals? If so can you kindly give me a link to your site that refers to ALL point of views?

again, if you have some suggestions, i'll gladly look into them.

 
At 1/19/2006 02:33:00 PM, Anonymous TWOTHREESET SHAME SHAME SHAME said...

Winston Churchill is considered a hero of the 2nd World War and Europe. This doesn't diminish the fact that at 1 point the sun never set on the British Empire or that he wasn't a part of that. It also doesn't diminish a correct observation he made about the Arab world.

But once again the left uses what it does best, name, label, villify and diminish instead of debate.

Since I know Richard works at a pretty left wing institution he is very familiar with this tactic and thus handled you perfectly.

If one were going to use the same bogus "shame game"... Twosret shame on you for prejudging someone as unbiased and surreptitious simply bcs they are a Joooo or at least you believe they are a Joooo... this is quite surprising given the normal zeitgeist of open mindedness, free speech and tolerance in the Arab world.
SHAME SHAME SHAME ON YOU!!!@ TWO THREE FOUR FIVE TIMES OVER!

Mike

 
At 1/19/2006 06:14:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

So, did anyone come up with the penile proof yet!?

 
At 1/19/2006 09:48:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scorekeeper,

You are two young to join this conversation. Your are very simplistic and you get stuck on one thought and can't move forward. You look like a clown and you can't let go of kindergarden grudges.

You show lack of comprehension in every post you try to attack anyone who sympathize with Palestinians. Your methods are very childish and you need to mature a bit.

Hicham-Morocco

 
At 1/19/2006 11:26:00 PM, Anonymous UNDER 12 NOT ALLOWED! said...

Anonymous -

Show the proof where I criticized someone for sympathizing with the Palestinians.

As to your other judgments they're boring me.
When someone earns the right to be justly lampooned they'll get their just deserts and that had nothing to do with Palestinians in any sentence but for someone claiming they know Jooooooooos are running a site and thus is a surreptitious and UNreliable one.
Again quite shocking given the Arab world's normal zeitgeist of tolerance and free speech.

Craig -

I think TWOSET is trying to locate the gym teacher from Porky's to do the penile inspection. Unfortunately Paris or Jessica A weren't available.

Mike

 
At 1/19/2006 11:42:00 PM, Anonymous Jana said...

Hicham,

Please don't worry about him. He should be on your ignore list. It is not a good idea to give children much attention or to reply to sub-standard comments like this......the guy is logging under 20 different names so far
(^-^). thinking he is funny whatever works for him let him vent off.
Offer him a sucker may be it will work.

Jana
Poland

 
At 1/20/2006 10:05:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Richard, I don't know if you're serious or sarcastic, in your claim about the lack or non existance of palestian and arab intellectuals or writings to use as a reference for a different perspective than your currently very tilted one. It's highly incredible to think that someone as involved in this issue as you claim you are haven't heard about Edward Said "The Question of Palestine" and "Orientalism" (In which he essentially examines the claims of people with your similar Churchillian/Kiplingar/White man's burden/Better under colonialism view point), unfortunately he passed away in 2003, or Rashid Khalidi "Palestinian Identity" and "Resurrecting Empire"(which is essentialy orientalism light).
Or Azmy Beshara or Hanan Ashrawy, and your failure to notice Twosret as a formidable advocate for the paletinians also raises some questions about your objectivity ;).

 
At 1/20/2006 08:21:00 PM, Anonymous HERE THEY COME RICHARD said...

Like clockwork -

Find anyone who questions the carefully prepared propaganda image that comes out of the Territories as not being reality, and they're gonna come after you.
Mohammed and TWOSET (are you a Jew or are you not a Jew - you must be Jew?) are dying to slash you if they can.

When you make a simple point that anyone who would even question the Al Durrah incident, the clarion rallying call of the Intifadah, would get the shit beat out of them or worse, he then say well what about Ashwari, whom often lies so much in the West even her Western supporters are sometimes embarrassed, or Said, who's work has been critically questioned by many, or Khalidi who use to work for the PLO, as people who would likely admit that the carefully prepared image from a soft police state isn't exactly reality. LOL :-)

I think the reason why there are people in Israel who question everything and not so many that would be willing to speak out against the image prepared by the PLO is probably because Israel is so at fault and the Palestinians are always truthful and almost never at fault......
Since we know there aren't are any other possible explanations.
maybe that's it?

Khaled Abu Toameh

 
At 1/21/2006 12:31:00 PM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

Very childish try Scorekeeper or is it "Khaled Abu Toameh"? Do you think that using a fake name, would conceal your uniqueness, nice try kid, but next time try not to be over creative in selecting an arabic name.

 
At 1/21/2006 07:58:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Toameh and the link to Scorekeeper site :) this guy is fun to watch and laugh.

I think this guy is a runaway from a mental hospital.

 
At 1/23/2006 11:45:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

I swear Anon that I knew it was him without even trying the link. But putting the link to scorekeeper, that's beyond awesome, isn't he such a darling?

 
At 1/23/2006 12:51:00 PM, Anonymous IDIOT 1 AND 2 said...

you guys are such morons. you think you're showing how smart you are? you think I'm trying to use a fake name? and coming from "anonymous".

The guy is a real person whom I mentioned in 1 of my posts above. Try and READ.
Get a life. lol.

Mike

 
At 3/01/2006 04:59:00 PM, Blogger Steven said...

What a fantastic read. Thank you SM for linking this one.

 

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