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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Wednesday, February 22, 2006

The Clerics are the problem

A lot of people ranted and raved over this article in the lights of the recent poll that showed that 40% of the UK's muslims want Sharia laws implemented in the UK. I think it's an interesting read, and I found this part to be especially illuminating of where europe is heading. They simply do not realise how seriously Muslims take their religion. Islamic clerics regard themselves as locked in mortal combat with secularism.

"For example, one of the fundamental notions of a secular society is the moral importance of freedom, of individual choice. But in Islam, choice is not allowable: there cannot be free choice about whether to choose or reject any of the fundamental aspects of the religion, because they are all divinely ordained. God has laid down the law, and man must obey.

'Islamic clerics do not believe in a society in which Islam is one religion among others in a society ruled by basically non-religious laws. They believe it must be the dominant religion - and it is their aim to achieve this.

"That is why they do not believe in integration. In 1980, the Islamic Council of Europe laid out their strategy for the future - and the fundamental rule was never dilute your presence. That is to say, do not integrate.

"Rather, concentrate Muslim presence in a particular area until you are a majority in that area, so that the institutions of the local community come to reflect Islamic structures. The education system will be Islamic, the shops will serve only halal food, there will be no advertisements showing naked or semi-naked women, and so on."

That plan, says Dr Sookhdeo, is being followed in Britain. "That is why you are seeing areas which are now almost totally Muslim. The next step will be pushing the Government to recognise sharia law for Muslim communities - which will be backed up by the claim that it is "racist" or "Islamophobic" or "violating the rights of Muslims" to deny them sharia law.

"There's already a Sharia Law Council for the UK. The Government has already started making concessions: it has changed the law so that there are sharia-compliant mortgages and sharia pensions.

I think it has become mightily clear from the Danish experience that the people the western governments should talk to about muslim integration should NOT be the islamic clerics. But in the absence of secular muslim leaders and organizations for them to talk to, what are the western governments to do? I say that more organizations like the Democratic Muslims and the little known American Islamic Congress need to be established and contacted by the western governments, because those are your best hope for actual integration. And please, if you are a muslim who lives in a western country and wants Sharia law implemented there, I have 3 words for you: MOVE TO SAUDI! Ok? Glad we cleared that one!


At 2/22/2006 12:04:00 AM, Blogger Christine said...

It's time for people to get out of their yellow submarines, take off their pink sunglasses, take the earplugs out of their ears and stop singing kumbaya. Before it get's any worse.

At 2/22/2006 12:55:00 AM, Blogger Prup (aka Jim Benton) said...

I remember a Pakistani parent saying how good it was to bring up a child in the West because she could simply tell the child to look around and see all the ideas and values the child should reject.

At 2/22/2006 01:08:00 AM, Blogger EducSubNorm said...

Terrifying ! Many folk in the UK, me included, have been lobbying our MPs and trying to make people listen to this very point, for years - to no avail. Our legislators seem deaf and blind while the shackles are being placed around their limbs.

At 2/22/2006 01:37:00 AM, Anonymous Anne Kirstine said...

This is our local "democratic moslem" http://www.khader.dk/flx/in_english/
Maybe you would like to take a look at his webpage?

At 2/22/2006 02:36:00 AM, Blogger Blogspat said...

I am cynical, I know, but I think one big step forward will be the day that the clerics cannot control people simply by saying "do this or you are not a good muslim".

At 2/22/2006 03:36:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

When will this nonsense end??
Do muslims think they will get their sharia law that hasnt done any good in any country that implemented it? Not to mention how ambiguous the Sharia is, The sharia in the Quran was specifically tailored to the lifestyle & times of the early arab muslims, it was never meant to be for all time.
If muslims get kicked out of Europe, they deserve it...anyone who wants a sharia should get the bloody hell out of that country & go live someplace where they have it, like Saudi Arabia & Sudan or else shut their bloody gobs.

At 2/22/2006 03:39:00 AM, Anonymous muvep said...

That would be a glorious day! Also if muslims started to read the history & see there is no such thing as to a religious man in ISlam, everyone is responsible for their actions & should find out about things themselves not take orders from clerics who want them to live in the past, when the past was more modern than they can imagine.

At 2/22/2006 03:47:00 AM, Blogger scandiwoman said...

This is the type of information we need to continue debating this issue of integration, 'the west' vs. islam etc. Would be interesting to have some numbers: how many muslims living in the west on average oppose secularism and how many fully support it? I just don't understand why a truly devoted muslim who hates everything about 'the west' (=non-islamic states) and wants sharia laws comes to live here in the first place!? I am just honestly bewildered. Wouldn't the Middle-east be better? There should be a queue to Saudi Arabia. I don't like the idea that some individuals would come here only to look down upon us. I've traveled a lot and even in short visits I've studied local customs, and acted accordingly. Why would I go somewhere to disrespect?

At 2/22/2006 03:54:00 AM, Anonymous Don Cox said...

" I just don't understand why a truly devoted muslim who hates everything about 'the west' (=non-islamic states) and wants sharia laws comes to live here in the first place!?"____Same reason lots of English people with strong Christian beliefs went to live in India or Egypt - to spread the truth among the heathen.

At 2/22/2006 04:52:00 AM, Blogger MadTPot said...


At 2/22/2006 05:25:00 AM, Anonymous jokerman said...

Don cox
that is not true.
Muslims in these countries are not like the Missionaries at all. I cant see how the comparison can be made. Muslims went there to live ina free society where they can enjoy a good living, I dont think integration was on the agenda.
But im sure some muslims who wanted to integrate were faced with prejudism that would have made them rethink & make a u turn back to their roots & some who simply went forward & adapted.
But i havent heard of any missionaries in Egypt, where did you get that from? is it recent?

At 2/22/2006 05:52:00 AM, Blogger scandiwoman said...

I'm not for any religion nor am I British. Anyway, history is full of all kinds of examples of wrong-doing by every group of people and although you should know about the past and learn from it, I don't think you can directly link the past with the present. As they say, times were different, people played in a different context, and things have changed. For example, old school imperialism that forced religion on 'natives' elsewhere is generally condemned TODAY. In any case, I was speaking for myself. I wasn't saying there are no disrespectful people in 'the west' but I would find going far into the past a little irrelevant and rather think about these disgusting drunk tourists who feel they can behave like they would never at home: shouting, littering, falling around drunk and generally acting nasty.

At 2/22/2006 06:56:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Amen sister!

At 2/22/2006 07:26:00 AM, Anonymous AS said...


"But I'm sure some muslims who wanted to integrate were faced with prejudism that would have made them rethink & make a u turn back to their roots & some who simply went forward & adapted."

You touched upon a very important point; people, the average person, regardless of religion, is turned off by extremists from any camp, right, left, christian, jewish, muslim, etc.

So I think many Muslims in the west did try to assimilate themselves, but when met with an extremist western person/action, they withdraw. They begin thinking "They hate me; they hate muslims; cleric so and so was right, we must hate them." Which, in my opinion, even in the face of the worst discrimination, is still not justified.

The only point I would disagree with you on is that Muslims don't go back to their "roots", because I don't think their roots are anti-western. I think they go to an extreme and adopt the "if they hate me, I'll hate them back" mentality. Which is a blinding mentality for any person, again regardless of religion.

It is also important to remember Muslims come in many shades of gray, so the label of "devout Muslim" can be claimed by a variety of groups, from moderate to the most extreme.

At 2/22/2006 07:51:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"For example, one of the fundamental notions of a secular society is the moral importance of freedom, of individual choice. But in Islam, choice is not allowable: there cannot be free choice about whether to choose or reject any of the fundamental aspects of the religion, because they are all divinely ordained. God has laid down the law, and man must obey.

Didn't their allah gave them free will to choose how to live their life? What? Muslims don't have free will? Perish the thought!!

Sam, remember that matrix you posted that says westersn build up things, while muslims destroy them? It isn't too far off the mark. We westerners have built our democracy and our societies have thrived immensely. America was birthed by democracy and in a few hundred years, became the most powerful country that world has ever know.

Whatever the muslim world has to offer in terms of lifestyle, we don't want it. We don't want their barbaric sharia law, yet they still place it upon themselves to ram it down our throats. We're doing just fine without sharia and without allah or mo's help. What we built up, muslims are slowly and systematically tearing it down.

If those stupid Muslims think islam is the answer to their woes, then by all means, go to a pure muslim country like saudi arabia. There's lots of islam over there. Surely, it must be paradise to live in the house of saud.


At 2/22/2006 08:13:00 AM, Blogger The Egyptian Observer said...

Attempting to bring Sharia Law to Muslims in Britain brings about an interesting problem of what defines 'freedom.'

On the one hand, Britain, a country of free speech upholds civil liberties and norms of a democratic society - thus one could argue that if Muslims would like to be governed by Sharia Law then they should be allowed to do so.

However, on the other hand, how is possible to integrate Sharia Law in to legal system of a secular society? It is paradoxical.

The Muslims' request in Britain is unreasonable. If they wish to live under Sharia Law or a psuedo-implementation of the Sharia Law then they should return to their respective countries.

Both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are implementing Sharia Law in full force.

Immigrant Muslims cannot employ a double standard at this point. They cannot possibly feel that they could live in a Western secular society (where they could drink alcohol, have pre-marital sex etc.) while shadowing themselves from the rest of the country's citizens and refuse to integrate. This is extremely hyprocritical.

Immigration requires integration. It is possible in Britain to abide by one's faith without societal pressures. If one chooses to pray five times a day etc., they could so in the comfort of their own home or in a nearby mosque.

There is a tendency in Islam to 'impose,' which is incorrect. The Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) stated that converts to Islam should be subjectively convinced (and not obliged) to follow the faith.

In this example, there is a sense of imposition. Moderate Muslims should represent Islam, extremist clerics misguide individuals and are uncompromising.

Visit my blog! The Egyptian Observer.

At 2/22/2006 12:42:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most muslims move to Western countries to get an education,a job or to buy a business.Unfortunately,a small percentage of them are (or become) jihadists.In fact three Jordanian-Americans living in Ohio were recently arrested for plotting to kill US troops in Iraq.

Since Saudi has lots of oil money and plenty of land,it should be the perfect "mecca" for muslims wanting to leave their homelands to better themselves.Plus they won't have to worry about implementing sharia,as it's already in place.

At 2/22/2006 02:33:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"But in the absence of secular muslim leaders ...."

Please clear this to me, a humble infidel.
SECULAR MUSLIM is in my view a contradiction and an absurdity.
Either muslim or not muslim, maybe
"moderate muslim", perhaps "democratic muslim", although I doubt it.

At 2/22/2006 08:28:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you very much for saying that for the rest of us who feel the same way.


At 2/23/2006 06:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sandmonkey, you should feel proud. Both the Australian Prime Minister and the Treasurer have publicly stated that those muslims who do not wish to embrace Australian values, integrate or want some type of Sharia law should move to either Saudi or Iran. Oh the cries of racism that are starting to rise of from the usual suspects down here. btw they never said much when that crazy f*****g American Sheik Khalid Yasin came over here and stated that "a moslem can NEVER have a non-moslem as a friend" & more on 60 minutes. Then the prick asked for Australian citizenship. piss off home. If you want some light reading try allaboutgv.blogspot.com. lastest shit is a hoot, the arsehole. ta. Bill

At 3/10/2006 12:41:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don Cox
I have not heard of any missionaries blowing themselves or others up, urging others to blow up, chopping off infidel heads, preaching our way or the highway, referring to possible converts as 'infidel', putting women in the category of property, or trying to institute laws that say as much all in the name of 'God'.
While they may have 'pushed' their religion, they did it nonviolently. They brought education, medicine, and modernity (is that a word?). What has Shar'ia done?


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