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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Wednesday, February 22, 2006

This is why I love the Dry Bones Blog

I was checking out the Dry Bones Blog and I stumbeld upon this little gem: Hamas Now, seriously, isn't it funny that the same people who are defending Hamas and its positions are the same people who have attacked Sharon on his positions? I love this world.

12 Comments:

At 2/22/2006 02:05:00 AM, Blogger Christine said...

Keep trying to make sense out of all of this SM. Before you know it, your brain will be in the shape of a pretzel. Your choice, hard or soft. :-)

 
At 2/22/2006 03:23:00 AM, Anonymous Jokerman said...

Yes, sandy..its funny always to see bigots not making sense at all contradicting themselves out of pure prejudism.
Christine
soft, You can add butter on it & voila, ready for Hannibal.

 
At 2/22/2006 03:37:00 AM, Anonymous Alaa said...

ya monkey you need to learn to put yourself in other's shoes, not to understand their excuses or change your position, but just to understand their internal logic.

there is nothing ironic or funny about it, it's rather simple.

if you believe in a one state solution then you believe in one of three scenarios (one can think of other scenarios but historycally these are the ones that had any kind of support at any point in time).

1 Israeli state, where zionism is the ideology of the state, all jews can be israelis if they choose and an arab population is allowed in and allowed to practice democracy as long as the demographics don't change in a way that makes jews a minority.

2 Plaestinian state, where most current Israelis are not welcome, this scenario can take multiple forms that vary in it's tollerance of a jewsih population (arab jews get to stay, jews born in Israel get to stay etc), this is hamas's position with alot of islamic rhetoric

3 a single secular democratic state where all all current citizens of Israel, all current citizens of occupied lands and palestinian refugees are considered citizens, the demography will probably impose an arab identity but focus will be on mutual future building (the south africa scenario), people tend to forget that this was the PLOs original plan

so since we know quite well that sharon and hamas are not for option 3 it's obvious that their positions are mutually exclusive, you cannot support one of the first two positions while accepting the other as a legitimate solution.

now I don't know of any palestinian who thinks the two state solution is actually practical (I'm not talking politicians here, I'm talking friends and stuff). the country is too small to be split, palestine has no economy to support a whole state, there isn't enough water, palestine will be split in the middle and movement between the westbank and gazza will always be controlled by the israeli army, constant movement will also mean constant movement inside israel which means breach of security, and also means palestinians will seek work in Israel, which will lead to new immigrants complaining, trade unions complaining, palestinians complaining because they'll probably get exploited (being illegal immigrants). etc. etc. etc.

 
At 2/22/2006 06:56:00 AM, Anonymous MichaelM said...

True, but so is the opposite:

The same people who were defending Sharon's early position, are the same people who are condeming Hamas's position.

Chew on that.

 
At 2/22/2006 06:56:00 AM, Anonymous Amgad said...

It is also funny to see all the people who had enough patience to persuade Sharon to accept this formula and reward him in every step, loose all their diplomatic skills and speak about economic sanctions before hamas led government takes any decision. Pressuring Arab countries to prevent flow of donations to hamas is very close to economic sanctions, in my opinions.

Now seriously does not the proposal of hamas have some logic?
1- recognize a Palestinian state and we recognize a Jewish state
2- withdraw your troops from our territory and we disarm our militia our organize them in regular army

As far as international law is concerned, Israel’s borders are defined in the resolution of the UN that created it 58 years ago. There is no other legal basis for holding more Arab territory than those allocated to it by the UN.

 
At 2/22/2006 07:02:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michaelm,

Nahh, they just take it as proof that they were right all along.

 
At 2/22/2006 07:22:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The jews are pretty easy to work with. Just be nice, and don't threaten to wipe them off the map, and eventually they will concede little by little.

jonas

 
At 2/22/2006 08:26:00 AM, Blogger elengil said...

amgad, the Arabs rejected that proposal, therefor it's FAR too late for them to want it now.

If you, as a country, are attacked, and in the defense of your country you gain ground, then that is NOT illegal acquisition of territory by war. That is LEGAL ground you are holding. Ground that Israel has historically traded for a peace.

The illegal acquisition of territory by war applies only to *the aggressor* in the war, which can not start a war in order to gain ground and have that be recognized as legitimate by the international community.

I don't think it's at all strange for a nation that has been continuously attacked through terrorism to refuse to recognize that terrorist organization regardless of what political power it gains. Especially to refuse to fund it.

Hamas has vowed NEVER to recognize a Jewish state, not *just* that it will recognize Israel once Israel recognizes a 'palestine'. Besides, if that was all it took, then they have done that over and over with the various deals that were attempted with Arafat, of which he rejected every last one. So Hamas should already be recognizing Israel.

Basically, Israel has bent over backwards to try to conceed to palestinian demands, and it's about time they stop doing that. The intifada that the palestinians decided to hold once again has meant they don't get consessions. You don't reward violence.

 
At 2/22/2006 09:58:00 AM, Anonymous Mohamed said...

MichaelM, exactly, you beat me to it, thanks for pointing this fact to SM and also for having a brain.
Alaa, the fair and just and everlasting solution is option number 3.

 
At 2/23/2006 01:19:00 AM, Anonymous Amgad said...

You speak as if a unified Arab nation exists and that this nation is democratically represented by its corrupt kings and military dictators. It is needless to mention that neither of them is true, therefore it is illogical to punish the Palestinians today because of decisions made by corrupt kings and in Cairo and Amman 58 years ago, is not it? Furthermore, 1967 according to the Israeli official version of the events was a preemptive strike not a war to repel an aggression. It would be a dangerous world if all states claim the right to blow preemptive strikes to their enemies and further claim the gained territory as legal.

Now, after accepting your assumption that the Israeli acquisition of this territory is legal and the Palestinians can demand complete withdrawal comes the paradox of the Israeli “democracy”:

Tel Aviv controls the lives of a round 10 million people, of these 6 millions are considered citizens and can vote the government in and out, while another 4 millions are excluded.

The human condition in part of the territory governed by Tel Aviv makes it rank among the best 30 countries allover the world in terms of human development index and the other part ranks below 100.

 
At 2/23/2006 01:21:00 AM, Anonymous Amgad said...

sorry, my reply was directed to elengil
i had a mistake in the sentence
Now, after accepting your assumption that the Israeli acquisition of this territory is legal and the Palestinians can NOT demand complete withdrawal comes the paradox of the Israeli “democracy”:

 
At 2/25/2006 11:21:00 AM, Blogger Scorekeeper said...

Alaa,
Sandman's point which you dutifully ignored was the HYPOCRISY of the attitude towards Sharon (villified, ohe he's horrible from the PC Leftist Crowd) and now how they bend over backwards for a group this is an avowed outward fascist Genocidal Religious Group. However, since you wanted to go into your 'lesson plan' to show how Sharon and Hamas are "logically different but the same" I addressed it anyway.

Ok I'll take a shot at it even though it's going nowhere regardless.

Alaa
there is nothing ironic or funny about it, it's rather simple.
1 Israeli state, where zionism is the ideology of the state, all jews can be israelis if they choose and an arab population is allowed in and allowed to practice democracy as long as the demographics don't change in a way that makes jews a minority.

If we are understanding the other than let's change the perspective.

"You have to understand Jews can only be an equal free citizen in Middle Eastern country." They're not allowed to be citizens in Jordan by law and would not want to live in any Middle Eastern country. Arabs control 99.9% of the Middle East and will not make room for Palestinians from 2 wars they lost to destroy Israel.

So Israel IS NOT going anywhere and if we are going to be the fairest here it seems continuing Israel as a country with an Arab minority seems like the fairest thing to do.

2 Plaestinian state, where most current Israelis are not welcome, this scenario can take multiple forms that vary in it's tollerance of a jewsih population (arab jews get to stay, jews born in Israel get to stay etc), this is hamas's position with alot of islamic rhetoric

Oh, I love the "Arab Jews" bit. You mean like the Sephards and Mizrahi who are like 65% of the population? Usually these are the most Zionist and opposed to any Arab rule ever, because their parents and grandparents have relayed first hand the "joys' of living as 3rd class Dhimmi.

And I think what you really mean is like a kind of Nice Genocide dressed up. Like a kinder gentler Sudan sordove.
All those Hamas kids shows, classes, schools and teachings in Mosques are just "rhetoric" meaningless you see..... like the Nazis or Japanese were just rhetoric too.
You know what they "really mean".

3 a single secular democratic state where all all current citizens of Israel, all current citizens of occupied lands and palestinian refugees are considered citizens, the demography will probably impose an arab identity but focus will be on mutual future building (the south africa scenario), people tend to forget that this was the PLOs original plan

This is called Fantasy Land. However, in reality if the Arab world accepted a 2 state solution, full recognition of Israel and cut the propaganda and hate this would probably be the result in about 80 years more or less anyway. However, they can't/won't ever really accept Israel and thus this is just somehing "academics" like to pretend is an option. No Israeli, rightly so, is going to want to live in an Arab dominated country. Ask the Kurds if they want to live in another Arab Islamic dominated country too?

The bottom line is Sharon doesn't want or like a Palestinian State however he realizes there will can not be any progress towards any kind of dimming down of violence and path towards peace because at the end of the day the Arab position will NEVER budge one inch on the ground and in the minds. It has only gotten more rejectionist no matter what any PC Western paper prints. And those are the facts.

 

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