Just a thought
Here is something that I just thought of: Does it ever strike you as odd that the muslim world hates Bush more than he does Milosevic and Saddam? I mean, the first engaged in a massive genocide against muslims (and was stopped by the US and Nato forces), and the other attacked Iran, Kuwait and Saudi, murderd thousands of their people, let alone killing thousands of Kurds and Shia's. But who does the average arab/muslim hate? Bush. How does this work again? Does anyone know?
posted by The Sandmonkey @ 3/11/2006 07:08:00 AM
73 Comments:
Moslems are all Democrats ? Perhaps all those years of British rule means that they won't forgive the US for 1776 ? Why worry, from what I've seen they only hate Americans marginally more than each other. BW48
Maybe they don't consider the bosnian muslims the right kind of muslims because they are modern and democratic and their women aren't veiled?
Maybe they think they had it coming to them?
Evil happens not because God/Allah punishes humans, but because humans can be evil, remember that!
Sandmonkey,
I think that's probably for the first time that I don't share your opinion. The world has accepted Milosevic as a genocidal killer, but I am not that sure about it. Some facts:
- There is no question that there WAS a massacre in Srebrenica, with Muslim bosniaks as victims. However, it was the Bosnian Serbs, not the army of Yugoslavia who did it. I mean, there is a difference between, say, Iraqi Sunni militas, and, say, the Egyptian government.
- You might object that this comparision is ridiculous since the Egyptian government doesn't support the Iraqi militas. However, I haven't seen much decisive evidence that the Yugoslavian army did. It is clear where their sympathies were; but being responsible for killing or being sympathic to it are different things.
- When Croatia and Bosnia broke away, both had massive Serb minories, and both of them immediately used WW2 symbolics, rhetorics and nationalistic ideas. What would happen if Alsace-Lorraine would break away from France, flashing the Swastika? Or Alto-Adige from Italy, using nasty rhetorics on Italians? Well, they would probably use their military in the interior, and rightly so. This does not justify massacres, and I am 100% supportive of tracking down criminals like Mladic or Karadzic, but Milosevic? Don't know...
- Regarding Kosovo: Well, that was one big lie. Albanias claimed the Serbs would slay them like beasts, the had committed the Rajak massace (what made Germany change its constitution: This massacre was justification enough to allow again using the army in the exterior). In fact, unlike Srebenica, Rajak never happened (just look at Wikipedia or google a bit: the victims weren't civilians, but rather combatants).
- I don't claim that they were no Serbian attacks on human rights. But I just want proves that they were directed from Belgrade and not done by local militas before I would start to attack Milosevic.
Two reasons:
One: Saddam was a Sunni Muslim. As we all know, Muslims can kill other Muslims (in seeming direct violation of the Koran) and there will be no outcry, because there's the escape hatch in the verse: "Except those who create mischief in the land".
Because of this escape hatch, Muslim leaders can kill with impunity, because God hasn't defined 'mischief'.
Secondly: Arab Muslims are higher class/status than other Muslims. Other Muslims are just slave fodder. Mohammed was an Arab, so Arabs are blessed. Attack Arabs, and you get an outcry!
Attack Sudanese or Pakistanis or Serbians, and who the hell cares? They aren't important. They aren't the 'Master Race' of Muslims.
Wow. Islam = Naziism?
I am Coptic and I can understand the Muslim world's hate for Bush. This man caused the death of 100,000 Iraqis as a result of his sick, immoral, and illegal war. He only caters for the rich and did not give a damn about the poor in his own backyard. Bush s the embodiment of everything I dispise and hate about America. There is only one diference between a fascist Muslim and a fascist White: the former is powerless now. There is no difference between militant Christians and militant Muslims. Stop idealizing this man- he is just another religious yahoo.
maged, your 100,000 statistic was debunked a year ago. How many muslims were killed by saddam? How many deaths in Iraq are at the hands of other muslims?
You are the embodiment of everything I hate and dispise about the middle east. Your facts are wrong, you make blanket statements about countries you don't understand and think everything is relative.
maged salamah,
Every point you asserted in your post is factually wrong. Every single point. I've seen these points debunked long ago. I can dissect it but it takes too long to dig up the information. Many of the american left dare not say some of the things you say because they have more common sense than that.
jonas
Sandmonkey;
The reason for hating George Bush is the same as anti-Americanism that flourishes in the world, two words "PENIS ENVY".
America has so much, dominates as an economy, so those with less "hate" America, although I'd dare guess that 90% of them would give their left nut for a green card.
BTW I'm Canadian not American
Wombat37
As usual you make the most idiotic and simplistic "observations" and i use the word observation very loosly. In the west Bush is hated more than anywhere else in the world. The fact that Arabs, muslim and christian and atheist and liberal, hate him more than those you mentioned, who by the way i utterly despise, is because they see the effects of his actions and experience them fully, ie they're involved, which is ok even if you're a liberal!
First of all, Mike, here is a scientific evidence for the death of 100,000 Iraqis as a result of Bush’s immoral war: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596 By the way I am American citizen, so do not make stupid assumptions about me. Why the heck you automatically assume that anyone who speaks out against Bush is speaking out against America? Visit my blog and you will know who I am.
Second, Wombat’s use of the concept of “Penis Envy” does not even know the meaning of this term. Do you compare non Americans to women who envy men for their penises? This term was used by Freud who lived in a Victorian era that was ridden with sexual repression. Your used of this term shows how a misogynistic idiot you are.
The Wiz, most of the good things you mentioned were made possible by Clinton. We are not criticizing America – we are just speaking about Bush.
Isn't there a middle-eastern logic that says: the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
And the friend of my enemy is my enemy?
that could be the answer to the why hate Bush question, couldn't it?
Anne, please do some research before spewing inaccurate info. What you just said is a principle created by Kautilya, a key advisor to an emperor in India. By the way India is not in the Middle East- I am sure you did not learn that in your school
http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Article/455057
You could argue that Muslims are treated much better in Bushland (the U.S.A), than they are in many Muslim Countries.
maged ..
You're an American! Who hates Bush! And you're full of ... misconceptions! I have an idea -- if Hillary is going to need a running mate .. want to step down and volunteer?
As far as Wombat's use of the term Penis Envy .. maged .. Wombat is so Psychologically hip you simply cannot recognize it. In the land of the free woman .. penis envy is a gender neutral term .. and Freud .. like it or not maged, will forever remain most highly placed in the pantheon of Fathers of Psychology.
BTW ... I'm a Psychologist
Maged, that is from the lancet study. Why don't you just claim 200,000 or 300,000 dead civilians? Do you have any idea how they settled on 100,000?
Mike and others, let me make it simple for you. If racist Bush did not act with his callus attitude to carry on this war, we would not have all these deaths on both sides. It does not matter if terrorists or Americans did it. It just happened because of the action of one sick F@#$. Stop defending him and you know he has blood in his hands.
Daisy, read Freud’s paper on narcissism and see how he equates non white people, whom he calls “primitive people, “ with children and how he argued that homosexuals are ill-developed. I read the APA report on issues of diversity and minority and it is obvious that many white psychologists like you are very anxious about the diversification of the field. Too bad you are realizing that what have you been learning in your program is very culturally-limited and even biased. It must be really devastating for you.
Daisy, I really doubt that you are a psychologist. You might have taken an intro class at a community college and are basing these posts on your limited exposure to the field. Also, psychologists are usually humble, a trait I can not find in you. If you only know my educational background, you would regret infantilizing me and putting me down. If you are a true psychologist, you would not have such an idiotic denial or arrogant elitism. Are you trying to convince me that American women have social power in the US? Have you ever heard of the concept of male privilege? Have you ever heard of the fact that American women make 70 cents of every dollar men make? Have you ever heard of the glass ceiling? Have you ever heard of how the DSM-IV created female-based disorders and never dared to do the same for men? Have you ever heard that the Philippine and Chile have women presidents and the US does not? Have you ever heard what the president of Harvard said about women’s limitations in science? Have you ever noticed how women are used as merchandise in America? If you are a true psychologist, you would not even make such glib remarks. The APA is a respected organization that has thousands of members who are psychologists. It has made great contribution to this nation and shame on you for disparaging it. Daisy, you need to understand that women’s oppression is universal. I am not denying that it is the worst in the Middle East but I cannot believe how superficial you are in addressing this issue. You also need to understand that many Muslim men are frozen in their religious beliefs, but at least they are not dead beats who leave their children in the streets or give their children up for adoption. What did Western advances do to the regular American man? It yielded him empty and seeks to fill his void with drugs, sex, and alcohol. You are out of your mind! I do not think that Muslim men envy that to be honest! Muslim men are victim to their religious dogmatic beliefs and not to being envious as you just noted.
"Anne, please do some research before spewing inaccurate info. What you just said is a principle created by Kautilya, a key advisor to an emperor in India."
I didn't know that - in my country it is quoted as a middleeastern proverb, but I do find it interesting that it has a different origin.
Can you tell me how old it is?
I won't start a new debate with you - I am just curious.
No good deed goes unpunished!
...ungrateful too...
Joanne
Maged,
Why do you live in the United States? Just asking...
"This man caused the death of 100,000 Iraqis as a result of his sick, immoral, and illegal war." by maged salamah
Where's the proof - all B.S. It wasn't illegal, immoral, or sick; the only thing sick about Iraqi Freedom is the aftermath has become a power struggle amongst the many nutjobs throughout Iraq and region, and this doesn't include the United States.
Milosevic was being tried for crimes against humanity, just as Saddam is being tried now. There was good reason to go into Iraq and free the Iraqi people from Saddam, just as it was to capture Milosevic's butt and put him on trial.
Joanne
"It does not matter if terrorists or Americans did it." by maged
Sure as hell does!
Joanne
maged, let me make this simple for you, your facts were wrong.
I still don't see how Bush is racist for trying to establish a democracy in the middle east. If he were racist he probably would have thought something along the lines of:
1. Arabs are stupid and they always kill each other.
2. They cannot possibly live in anything other than a totalitarian state. If there isn't a dictator they will just split into tribes and kill each other.
3. Saddam is okay, because without saddam iraqi's will just kill each other.
4. Even if they had elections it would only happen once because after the election they will split into tribes and kill each other.
5. We shouldn't concern ourselves with human rights as long as they pump oil.
Maged, is that realism or racism?
"It wasn't illegal, immoral, or sick.."
Well, the invasion was definitely illegal. Whether one believes it was immoral or sick is directly correlated with wether or not one a) lives in the US, and b) voted for Bush.
Sandmonkey,
I am sure you are not happy that your blog is attracting Right wing fascist republicans who hate Muslims just because they are Muslims. I am coptic and I wil defend Muslims from the toxic racism and prejudice of conservatives.
Daisy, there is no such thing as an APA journal. The APA has many journals and anyone who publish in them are the top in the field. What a liar!
Anonymous, I am an American citizen who lives in Egypt. Check my blog
Joanne, sure it does, you should be ashamed of your government doing the same thing as terrorists.
What's with all the facists posting on this site???? Which idiot just said "hating Bush is akin to hating America"? I am seriously dumbfounded by the ignorance shown here! I'm surprised the person who said that can write, that's like terrorists saying that hating bin kalb is akin to hating islam.Are you sure you haven't been in a cave too?! N
From the perspective of the international community (the UN) the invasion was illegal. However, the US is still the worlds only functioning superpower, which means it can do pretty much what it wants. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. But please, all you dear, sweet patriots out there, please drop the whole WMD case, because everyone else could see that it was BS, hence the war was not granted legitemacy by the UN.
And Daisy, Freudeanism is soo not even last century but the one before that again.
K from Oslo
By the way Daisy, female genital mutilation is not an islamic ritual. it's practiced in egypt by muslims and christians alike, sadly enough. it's also common in subsaharan africa. it wasn't practiced in taliban's afganistan and not in iran now.
stop gathering information in the garbage bin kid.
Eh, I'm thinking there is a need to explain the UPU here. Which Germany are you talking about? The one with Joshka Fisher as foreign affair minister? The wast majority of Europeans knew the WMD's were a bluff. Look, I'm sure the US (and the UK) would have gotten more support if they hadn't tried too cook up that story.
Nighty night...
K from Oslo
Don't worry about it, SM, an *awful* lot of Americans hate Bush, too.
*sigh* I can't believe that idiots avoid the qeustion and instead try to argue the merits of the (a) legality of attacking Iraq to remove Saddam, (b) the credentials of Frued, (c) the APA, ad nausem.
Getting back to SM's question on the post.
The post about the superiorty complex of Arabs, and of Gulf Arabs in particular, is interesting. I think it may be a small factor, but not the decisive one.
I think the answer is simple. It is their "honor" system. Simply put, honor is more valuable than life.
What these murders (Milosevic and Saddam) have in common are their claims that they are brave enough to stand up and defy the US. Therefore, by doing this, they are defending the honor of Muslims.
What specific problems the west has with Saddam or Milosevic is irrellevant and never asked. As long as said monster claims they are defending Islam (or Arab) honor, then all actions is ignored, forgiven, or condoned. The perception of honor takes precedent over all else.
This is the same system that allows Arabs to murder their own wives, daughters, and sisters in the name of family honor.
This is the same system that justifes the mass murder of thousands on innocent civilans on Sept 11, the London and Madrid bombings, and hundreds of other terrorist attacks oi the world. All the terrorist has to do is claim to be defending some vauge concept of honor, it the murder iss considered justified.
I think the idea of "penis envy" as a cause of hatred of Bush and the US has merit.
Combine that with "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and the honor code mentioned above, it becomes a toxic brew where mass murder of your own people is acceptable.
Ron, no offense but are you that dumb to think that Milosovic was a Muslim leader who defended the honor of Muslims? Why do not you read some books that may help you learn that Milosovic masaacred thousands of Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia. I just hate the American education system because it does not educate students about world events. Ron you really make me sad.
Some of facts & articles
maged, you didn't answer my question. Is it a realistic view of the world or is it racist?
Don't bother calling me a facist, just answer my question.
Sorry, this is the right link
And look at the bottom “Believe it or not” freaky pictures.
Some of facts & articles
this is another link, I guess we will never know the truth
good point
How come your lover Bush expected the Iraqis to adopt democracy but never dared to propose it to the Saudis? I know why! Because he has their oild. It is all about oil my friend and that is why he declared his illegal war
The wiz,
Sorry do not have enough time to check his profile- he sounded like a culturally encapsulated American from the Midwest though.
maged, answer the question.
K from Oslo, under what terms does a dictator lose power over his state? Who armed Saddam? What is the "international community"?
maged salamah,
I'm really puzzled.
You seem to hate everything & everybody from what I can tell by reading your blog & comments here. You are glad that "Bush killed 100,000" muslims in your blog then you hate him for it here?
Alot of contradiction?
maged salamah,
Man, you are such an idiot. Perhaps YOU should learn to read! How on earth you read that I think Milosevic was "defending" muslim honor is beyong me.
My point, that you fail to grasp, is that Milosevic and Saddam have in common is (a) a defiance of the US, and (b) the murder of thousands of muslims on their hands. Somehow, in the arab muslim mind, defying the US makes anything else they do both acceptable and forgivable. The REASON for this screwed up APU logic is the toxic combination of penis envy, the idea of the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend, and the arab idea of honor above life.
Or is that just to complicated for your pea brain?
maged salamah,
Man, you are such an idiot. Perhaps YOU should learn to read! How on earth you read that I think Milosevic was "defending" muslim honor is beyong me.
My point, that you fail to grasp, is that Milosevic and Saddam have in common is (a) a defiance of the US, and (b) the murder of thousands of muslims on their hands. Somehow, in the arab muslim mind, defying the US makes anything else they do both acceptable and forgivable. The REASON for this screwed up APU logic is the toxic combination of penis envy, the idea of the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend, and the arab idea of honor above life.
Or is that just to complicated for your pea brain?
A recent Europe-wide poll showed that 90% of those interviewed, consider Bush the greatest threat to world peace. Next in line is Islam. (Never mind the statistical ambivalence of comparing an individual with an ideology).
NB
I do realise that revealing this information will result in certain segments of the US intelligentsia calling for trade sanctions against Europe (if not immediate nuking). But it has to be admitted, the poor fellow has few friends, apart the "haves and have-mores" who benefit from his selective democracy.
Always fun to read this blog!
I have the explanation for all this anger, and it is penisrelated of course. Muslims, americans, jews. They are all circumsised which of course causes a trauma and that is why they like to go to war and fight and hate. It's not rational at all, and therefore anyone who tries to find rational explanations fail. The penis envy if there is one is towards those who have their penises intact.
At 5:22 AM, Steven said...
I support the war, and it has nothing to do with my Penis.
Check brain still present.
If so, discard penis.
Ron, you are extremely challenged when it comes to writing. Your sentences are not clear and you do not even know the difference between "to" and "too." I guess the Australian educational system is as much as a failure like the American one. I also guess that you are one of these Howard-supporters who hate Muslims just because they are Muslims
Chris,
I do not think you carefully read my post. I said that the actions of these terrorist scums caused the death of their brothers and sisters. IAlso, will you allow for contradictions- do not we all have it? I will make it simple: My disgust with racist Americans/Bushies is almost at the same level as my disgust with racist Muslims. I guess both have the same history- kiling and hating the other
"the action of one sick F@#$."
Hmmmm. Which one would that be? Tony Blair? John Howard? Silvio Berlusconi? Jose Maria Aznar? Aleksander Kwasniewski?
I'm confused.
Mike sweetie,
to answer your questions:
"under what terms does a dictator lose power over his state?"
Presumably when someone takes it away from him.
"Who armed Saddam?" Well, that would be the usual suspects, arms is legal business, well at least most of the time.
"What is the "international community"?". I was kinda thinking of the UN, but I'm sure there are a number of other definitions too.
The point is that by the UN's definition the INVASION of Irak was illegal. My point is, anyway, as the ony functioning superpower in the world, the US can do pretty much anything it wants. This position doesn't necessarely make the US popular, hence arabs hate Bush but don't care about Milosovic. But don't worry, in a few years we'll all be hating China instead.
K from Oslo
Maged, just went on your blog and realised how truly ignorant you are. Please don't feel the need to defend muslims, or any other religion, as YOUR pea brain is incapable of doing so. Oh, and i wouldn't criticise education systems of other countries when you are clearly a discresit to your own, also contradictions are one thing and changing your opinions every 5 seconds to suit the blog you're posting on is an entirely different thing. There i've educated you now. N
Ha! Another angry Arab sputters her rage! maged called me a liar :) May I suggest, maged, you read, in addition to the equivalent of "Psychology Today" & "The I Hate Men Digest" or whatever it is that you find so fascinating, perhaps Plato's Republic followed by anything at all written Oriana Fallacia. That ought to help what ails you. You're Muslim worshipping Copt and a Leftist Liberal .. the combination really makes perfect sense to me .. considering the self-hatred that rules both groups, not to mention the strong death wishes (disguised as peace wishes) that each uses both defensively and aggressively (for pathological purposes)
Ha! Another angry Arab sputters her rage! maged called me a liar :) May I suggest, maged, you read, in addition to the equivalent of "Psychology Today" & "The I Hate Men Digest" or whatever it is that you find so fascinating, perhaps Plato's Republic followed by anything at all written Oriana Fallacia. That ought to help what ails you. You're Muslim worshipping Copt and a Leftist Liberal .. the combination really makes perfect sense to me .. considering the self-hatred that rules both groups, not to mention the strong death wishes (disguised as peace wishes) that each uses both defensively and aggressively (for pathological purposes)
Same goes for the other social incompetent who considers Freud irrelevant. He's just about as irrelevant as Aristotle or Plato -- those reasonable archenemies of Islam's occultism.
As for the cliotoredectomy apologist nonsense- what sheer nonsense! Of course, many Muslims (and African animists ) practice clitoridectomies and of course the Taliban promoted this practice ... it's TRIBAL ... which is one factor explaining why Christians do NOT practice this barbarism - the other factor being that Christianity, is, at core level, the antidote to tribalism and therefore, anti-barbaric. Christians Baptize ... they do perform mutilation rituals.
Oh my gosh maged is a male. Now that does surprise me!! Has it surprised anyone esle?! I really thought he was a raging feminist (not that his male status would disqualify him .. In fact it's particularly a good strategy for getting man haters into bed with otherwise unattractive/unqualified effete, self-hating males)
Daisy, maybe you want to calm down a little bit, your language dicredits your branding of others as socialy incompetant and it most certanly does nothing to advertise your abilities as a psycologist.
Yes Freud was important in the establishment of psycology and psycotherapy, but his methods have, for the latter part of the last century, been increasingly abandoned for other methods based on a more scientific aproach. As a psycologist you might want to consider why Manged is so angry with both muslims and americans, rather that just dismissing him because he comes from a different background than you.
K from Oslo
what happened to the interesting penis discussion? The freudian link between penises and war? There have to be one doesn't it?
Intact;
ther was this guy, maybe a norwegian, can't remeber, with a theory that everything men (as in males) have ever accomplished, was in order to get laid. In laymansterms you could say that the US is the alphamale of the human flock, with arabs wanting to chalenge its position. After all extremist islamist keep droning on about how they want to kill the (male)infidels and take their women as booty.
To Freud, penis envy was a female affliction.
I think your circumsision theory has a lot going for it though:)
By the way, why are non muslim and non jewish american men circumsiced?
K from Oslo
Anon @ 10:11, exactly.
Maged, good work man, but don't worry, as you've said, most of the people here are rightwingers who'll eventually outnumber you, your blog is great too, although I sense a lot of bitterness and pessimism in it, some hints of optimism would help bro.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Daisy, I feel bad for you. You think I am female because I bravely spoke about my male privilege and how I have things females do not have because of their gender. I know you, you are a self appointed know-it all house wife who watches Fox News all day long. You have no psychological mindedness because you are extremely paranoid about everything that is Muslim. You do not reflect on your feelings and realize how they are so disturbed by your incredible fear from everything that is different from you. Psychologists supposedly have a sense of openness about their experiences and you have shown how narrow-minded idiot you are. You know, I am Christian too, but I would never be so hateful like you. I am angry but never hateful.
Mohammad, I agree that I am bitter with racist Muslim and racist Whites. I just do not know how to find a place where I am not hurt by both on a daily basis. Do you deny that Muslim privilege exists? Do you deny that Muslims discriminate against my people in Egypt? Do you deny that both Muslims and Racist Whites have a superiority complex that make them thing they are better than anyone else?
Anonymous, yes I am male. Are you “man enough” to admit that you are given privileges by the virtue of being male?
By the way, the concept of Penis envy denotes the idea of having social power. I think that we, Americans, do not feel powerful because as many of you pointed, we are hated by the whole world-Thanks to our incompetent president. I also do not understand how can we be powerful if we are threatened everyday by men who hide in caves? Our life styles have changed and everyday we learn that we will be attacked by Islamic terrorists.
Freud was a self-hating Jew who did not want to associate with his fellow Jews in Austria. He hated Adler for reminding him that social context matters in our psychological development. He had a pessimistic view of humanity and thought that we either hate or kill. Freud added to our understanding of human aggression and sexuality because he stole his work from Greek Philosophers.
This is my last post. I am sick and tired of bickering with racist/fascist Muslim-hating idiots.
Maged, no I can't deny it, but if you meet a bigot or a racist whether in egypt or in the us, you don't have to be his friend, you have the absolute liberty to choose your own friends, and if you search enough you'd definitely find enough people of all races and religions who don't give a rat's ass about what's your religion or what colour is your skin, in egypt for example (and as I've said I can't deny the discrimination) my closest coptic friends or neighbors didn't really feel this discrimination (or at least minimized it) because they had and chose moslem friends who they knew couldn't care less whether they're copts or not and vice versa for the moslems, the same thing for me here in the us, the only red necks I deal with here are plumbers or car mechanics, which doesn't give them much room or puts them in a position to discriminate against me.
Believe me, this won't be your last post :), I've been there before and said that before, they say so unbelievably outrageous stuff, that you just can't stay silent.
Maged.. you have resorted like typical liberal who cannot suport his side of an argument.. you immediately resort to name calling. i.e challenge liberal imigration policies and you're labelled bigot, racist,etc by the left because they cannot rationally support their policies. So because you could not understand the use of "penis envy" as I used it you call me a misogynist, oh ya , an idiodic one at that.. Is that really the best you can do.. no attempt to counter the comment just a personal attack. Again proof that you have no counter position you can support.
BTW good luck with your blog. An American (?) living in Egypt attacking George Bush.hmmmmm You'll have lots of liberal friends.
Regarding hating America.. I posed a question to one of my Muslim friends as we discussed the war on terrorism. I challenged him to name one event in history where Muslims came to the aid of Christians who were being killed by Muslims. His answer silence. I then said well the reverse has happened .. NATO (mainly USA) going into the Balkans.. His responce "ya BUT (there always is a but) why did it take them so long??
The Americans cannot win.. damned if the don't ..damned if they do...
well, this is off point completely, but the one I envy is daisy...
she put the 'ol intelectual bodyslam to Maged. LOL
Thank you kraussm ... I'm still smiling :)
Also - my highest regards to wombat for such an innovative use of the diagnosis of Penis Envy.
Poor maged ... a hating peacenik .. how confused can a person be?!
What an interesting site this is .. Sandmonkey is one brave fellow .. and smart and funny too ... great combo!
Thank you Daisy, I also found your comments bang on, and reading Maged comments thought it was a little like watching a wresting match, alas maged had no arms .. PINNED
As to Psychologists I like Frankl, particularily "Man's Search For Meaning"... Perhapr Maged might wana take a read.
;-)
"Everything can be taken from a man but the last of human freedoms, the right to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances--the right to choose one's own way."
wombat, I think that these words of V. Frankle display a profoundly intimate knowledge of the core value of choice within freedom as well as the inherent human dignity of the "will to" search for meaning.
Now that maged is gone .. I'm a Jungian .. as such, I leave science to the scientists (who do their part to help with suffering) and I deal psychologically (soulfully) with the meaning suffering and creativity .. here's something you might like from C. G. Jung:
"The creation of something new is not accomplished by the intellect but by the play instinct acting from inner necessity. The creative mind plays with the objects it loves."
And, sadly .. the stagnant, occluded mind suffocates even that which it wishes to love .. the shadow of the Leftist Pacifists holds an unexamined propensity to violence ... made truly dangerous by the Left's disavowal of aggression. And those Muslims still held in Islam's masochistic stranglehold are just as humorless as Western Leftists. For purposes of balance and light the Left ought to learn to hunt and eat what they kill and the Muslims ought to open nudist colonies and throw a few pies in each others faces. Neither Muslims or Leftists know how to play well with others.
I believe what Islam unconsciously longs for (and simultaneously rejects) is Reason and Logic (one reason Muslims are so fixated on Jew-hatred is because the Jews hold the 'manna' of logic that Muslims desperately need but are too shame-based and humorless to know how to ask for) Islam hides this longing behind violence .. which only renders them more impotent - since the violence is for bogus reasons. Combine this with the Western Left's same rejection of reason and their willful naiveté that pretends to be peaceful (but is seething with similar levels of angry impotence) and we have quite a volatile combination ..
Daisy;
Another great post..
I have used Frankl's "Everything can be taken from a man but the last of human freedoms, the right to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances--the right to choose one's own way."
as a touchstone for my children. That there is only one thing that they can absolutely control in their lives, and that is their own attitude and behaviour no matter what is happening around them, further that they OWN what they do.
Now a couple of questions...
First for all the leftists, pacifists, and always turn the other cheek types out there. Lets suppose we have two villages each with 100 inhabitants. One village is filled with the pacifist types. well educated , well intentioned, and totally against violence and killing under any circumstances. They believe in live and let live, that kindness, love . and reason conquers all.
The second village is populated by Jihadists, who's aim is to force the first village to come to their beliefs, and is prepared to terrorise, maim, and kill to achieve that aim. They consider the other village infidels who must be brought to embrace Islam or die.
Ok lefties. liberals et all what will become of these two villages??
Now for the Muslims and other assorted Israel haters..
At the time that Israel was created 1948 there were roughly the same number of refugees throughout that middle east that were Palestinian and Jewish, although the Jews were spread throughout the middle east. They were forced out of Arabic countries. Almost 60 years later what is the situation?
The jews dispersed around the world, going to Israel, USA, England, Canada etc.etc. In essence they
look at their lot in life, wanted to better their life, and emigrated and got on with it. The success stories of these "refugees" who become citizens of countries around the world are countless.
The Palestinians?? well they for the great part stayed in their "refugeee camps" for GENERATIONS. Looking inward and dercrying their fate. What did their Muslim brothers in arms do?? Invite them to become citizens of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, et al... NO . they left them in their "refugee camps" and created that canker on the soul of the earth that those "refugee camps" have become. A conservative cynic like me might think it is for political purposes that the Muslim countries have done this. They now all point to those "refugeee camps" and say "look what the Jews have done".
Now the question .. Why have Muslim countries not embrassed ther muslim brothers in these "refugee camps" and allowed them to imigrate and become citizens of their Muslim states??
"A conservative cynic like me might think it is for political purposes that the Muslim countries have done this. They now all point to those "refugeee camps" and say "look what the Jews have done"."
wombat .. I'm not at all sure it takes a cynic to think/observe what has most certainly been done by Arabs to Palestinians (and Palestinians to themselves) for wretchedly cynical purposes having to do with the manipulations of tyranny. In fact you sound thoughtful .. and I think, hopeful.
I'm searching for a word other than 'political' for the powermongering machinations of Islamic dictators -- since it gives undo credit to Islamotheocrats who don't have a 'polis'; you must have a valid nation-state in order for there to be a 'polis'. Any suggestions?
A suggestion.. Hmmmm .. maybe they could all move to Somalia.. Apparently God/Allah has his/her own form of population control every couple of years..
Seriously though would it not make sense for the Arab/Muslim countries that surround "Palestine" to take these refugees in, make them citizens and get on with living. Look at Jordan, which is one of the poorest countries in the region. Look further at the Paletinians who have chosen to live there rather than in the "refugee camps".. compare there lives .. Where would you rather be??
Now if the wealthier countries like Saudia Arabia were to welcome Palestinians, how much better would their lives be...
Wishful thinking on my part, cuz it takes abandoning 60 years of BAD politics, reason, and compassion to do this. All of which seem to be absent from the Arab/Muslim mind.
Only 60 years of bad manipulations? (I refuse to call them 'politics' .. one fist needs a polis .. Islam has none) If we are looking for the source of dangerously infantile manipulating, lack of ability to reason and an absence of compassion - we need look no further than Islam itself.
Mohammed is Islam's archetypal terrorist; the rest (including all war-lords and mullahs who simply divy the power) are modeled from his template. Those masses enslaved within the 'tyrannical from its very inception' Islam will always 'only be following orders'. Islam is totalitarian.
Have you seen the recent video showing Dr. Wafa Sultan's interview on Al Jazeera (she's actually been interviewed before ... but the world has caught up!) She says the same ... you'll notice that Muslims who say the same thing have ALL left Islam. (they can still be murdered ... but they reduce their chances this way) I don't know what religious (or not) tradition you were brought up within, wombat .. I myself am Christian .. and can no more imagine criticizing my religion as a life threatening event than I can imagine critiquing anything else being dangerous (with the notable exception of Islam) How about you? Can you imagine a Muslim parent using Victor Frankle's quote (concerning freedom and responsibility) as a guide to life?! I cannot .. at least not without a complete dismantling of Islam ... what would that leave behind that would allow Muslims to identify themselves as Muslims is anybodies guess at this point ... maybe Sufism or some other spiritual version of Islam. Who knows?
I agree with all you said about Islam.. I have a few Muslim friends, and whenever our discussion gets to the core of Islam's murderous cruelty and hate for al that is not Islamic, they fall back on a single position, that being how evil the USA is. It is laughable.
The reason you feel there is no threat to you if you crticize Christianity is that there is none. Why?? It gets back to that Penis envy thing.. Christianity is a very secure religon, secure in and of itself.. Islam is not, so it can not tollerate any questioning, criticizing, or cartoons. Like an insecure man wth a small penis .. OH ya Madge if ur still around do you get that??
Who aren't the Muslim's fighting with?? Christians. Jews, Hindus, Buddists, etc ,etc ,etc... No other religon is in this position in trhe 21st century.. Islam has cornered that market.
BTW I was raised Protestant, but I would now say I'm a failed Protestant... (Islamic translation would be Infedel). I try to live my life by one thing.. The Golden Rule, but am done with turning the other cheek when it comes to Islamists.
Canada has not reached that point yet.. we're still tollerating the "intollerent" . Very few here published the Cartoons.. their stated reason was sensitivity to Muslin fellings.. more likely it was the fear of Muslim threats. Some how double digit IQ's in a far away land following there Imams like sheep have basically cowed the western press, particularly the liberal press.. Now that is scary. One wonders what will be the next great offence??
I actually wrote to one of the non publishers who used the "no need to offend etc defence" . I asked the following question. If it is Blasphamy to Muslims if we show cartoons that depict Mohhamed, would it not stand to reason that since one of that 10 commandments which are the basis for both Christianity and Judaism is "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" murdering in the name of Allah would be Blasphamy to us?? . Of course no reply was recieved.
wombat,
I applaud your efforts in speaking w/ your Muslim friends. I must admit that I've given up at attempts at meaningful conversation w/ my Liberal friends ... and with friends who are halfway convinced that I'm some sort of religious bigot who needs enemies?! I suppose if Islam were a religion I could be accused of bigotry. However, Islam does not rise to the definition of religion: It is a totalitarian doctrine and has been from it's inception. People like Rumi, or Irshad Manji or Dr. Sultan are considered apostates worthy of eternal hellfire. Even that intellectual lowbrow, Rushdi has a renewed death-fatwah issued against him for revealing the Satanic verses that are part and parcel of ugly Islam.
I hope you keep writing to the 'non publishers' -- knowing that you're out there doing that will help me to do the same wombat! It's been good talking with you ..
Daisy
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