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Rantings of a Sandmonkey

Be forewarned: The writer of this blog is an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey. If this is your cup of tea, please enjoy your stay here. If not, please sod off

Wednesday, February 01, 2006

If you don't torch your Benz, then you don't love the prophet!

The ultimate battle of cultural headbutting has reached a whole new level of escelation, with Newspapers in France, Germany, Spain and Italy reprinting the cartoons. In the spirit of consistency, I demand that the muslim world extends the boycott to the products of all of these countries, because, you know, we have to defend the prophet's honor by punishing those countries with economic boycotts, or otherwise we would be hypocrites, no? So, what that means is that we have to boycott the following products: Germany: Cars such as Volks Wagen, Opel, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes Benz, and other german products such as Kinder choclate, Harribo Gummybears, Nutella, all of Mattell's products including Barbie and He-Man, Siemens products and Braun kitchen appliances. Not to mention german sheisse videos. Hell, boycott those last ones even if they didn't insult the prophet, will ya? France: Cars such as Citroen, Peugeot, Reneault, Alcatel cell-phone, Cartier jewlery and cloths, Louis Vuitton bags, Gucci, Channel, YSL products, Hell-all of Paris' fashion products, french pastries, french wine, french bread, and all of those french restaurants with french names. Not french fries though; those are belgian. Italy: Cars such as Fiat, lamborgini, Italian olive Oil, Versace products, Armani products, Any other italian fashion products, Italian wine, and all of those pesky italian restaurants as well. Spain: Cars such as Seat, and..ehh.. I don't know what Spain produces besides Seat's and incredibly hot women. Well, boycott both just to be safe, you know? So I call on the entire muslim world to boycott these products, and never buy them again. And if you own any of them- especially the cars- I demand that you dispose of them immedietly. Sell them as fast as you can, or torch them. Yeah. Torch them. I want to see you torch your mercedes and your Beemer. You would be doing it for the Prophet's honor, and I am sure your love and outrage for him superceeds your love for your German car. Now some of you may ask: But why should I torch my car if I bought it before they reprinted those cartoons? Surely that would be un-necessary, and the Prophet would understand that I bought them before they insulted him, no? Well, yeah, but if what if something broke down in them? What if you are going to need a spare-part or your car-services at your certified dealer? You know you would be economically benefitting those christian infidels if you did that. Do you really want that on your conscience, especially after they insulted the prophet, whom you sore that you loved more than anything in all of those text-messages, e-mails and petitions you've signed? No, you don't. So teach those car-making countries a lesson and damage your car, and don't get it fixed. Buy a car from Japan, China or Korea or any of those countries that don't even subscribe to judiaism, Christianity or Islam or believe in God and benefit them instead of one of those european christian infidel countries. I bet God would approve of that. And while we are at it, let's not take any aid from any of those countries. Let's recall our ambassadors from there, close our embassies, and abandon all trade with them. It's not worth the diginity of our prophet. If you are working in a company that imports such products, you have to boycott it immedietly and quit your job for the Prophet's sake. If you own such a company, shut it down or you are the kind of non-muslim infidel sell-out that makes our muslim nation weak. Hell, if you are even married to a man or a woman from one of thsoe countries, you have to boycott them immedietly, or beat them up. That's what the prophet would've wanted. And if you are palestinian, what are you waiting for? Torch those german, french, spanish and italian flags. Threaten violence against people from those countries, demand that they leave the occupied territories immidietly like you did with the danes. Ohh yeah, and refuse to take any kind of aid from them. You maybe strapped for Cash, but some things are just not up for negotiations, especially defending the prophet's honor. Yes, I am sure that our Mercedes and BMW-driving, Cartier and Gucci-wearing Political and religious leaders are going to call for all of that any moment now. I am sure they will set an example for all of us in their love for the Prophet by torching their own cars and their own expensive cloths. It will happen any minute now. Any minute now. Now. And...Now. Now? No? A boycott isn't so easy to advocate when you are dealing with countries whose main exports are not butter, cheese and Lego NOW IS IT? Especially when it comes to your precious Mercedeses and Beemers huh? LOL I am loving this, especially when it comes to the people at my work, who were forwarding e-mails and text-messages like they were fighting a Jihad and who were overzealous at their demands for a boycott against Denmark and Lurpak out of their love for their Prophet and supporting all the crazy shit that was going down because "we have to teach those people a lesson for messing with us". Today all of them are changing their tones and talking about how "we have to be reasonable about this", and "we should only focus on Denmark cause they are the ones who started this", and -my personal favorite-"This boycott campaign was just stupid from the begining anyway". And the fact that they all drive french and german cars has nothing to do with it. Not in the least. They even whine about "who could've seen that coming after what we did to Denmark?" Ehhm, I know the answer to that question: Me. Well, Me, and Big Pharaoh, and Roba. And let's not forget Jameed and Farooha, or Freedom For Egyptians, Nadim and Shamoussa. Not to mention Tomanbay, Leilouta, Senefru and Loulou, you know, just to name a few middle-easterners who actually have a working brain in their heads. And those are only the people who have blogs that I know of. Imagine how many more are out there. But alas, the majority have chosen the path of boycott, death threats and violence, and I demand that they continue on it till the end. If you buy a single product from any of those countries, then you are a muslim sell-out who doesn't love his religion. If you are wearing cloths from any of those countries, then you are the kind of traitor to his religion that makes God weep. And If tommorow comes without the Mercedes, BMW, Opel, Renault, Peugeot and Citreon dealerships torched or at least a couple hundreds of those cars demolished, then you are a bunch of spineless hypocritical pussies who don't love the prophet, and who don't care about his dignity or his honor. Or, you can just admit what I've been saying all along: that this is retarded, stupid and foolish. That Boycotts don't work. That it's especially retarded to boycott entire countries for what a local newspaper publishes, no matter how offensive you may find it to be. And while you are at it, please apologize to the danish people for the idiocy that you have caused, that have resulted in the closing of factories, in danes getting attacked and churches bombed. Hell, if anything, you better be praying to God for forgiveness for your part in fanning the hysteria that caused those morons to commit thsoe attacks and declare a Jihad on danish targets everywhere. And please, next time, think before you act, or before you follow the herd into doing something this stupid ever again. Ohh yeah, and Buy Danish.


At 2/02/2006 01:18:00 AM, Blogger Jordan said...

This is going to get much worse!

"Demonstration Friday 3rd February 2006 – Danish Embassy 55 Sloane Street, London SW1 – 2pm to 4pm"



"The recent cartoons that appeared in a Danish newspaper (Jyllands-Posten) and that were then re-printed in a Norwegian magazine, The Paris daily France Soir, The German Welt daily, Spanish and also Italian newspapers and which insult the Messenger Muhammad (saw) carry the death penalty in Islam for the perpetrators, since the Prophet said ‘Whoever insults a Prophet kill him’"


At this point, I think the chances of innocent people being attacked or killed are more likely than a peacefull resolution.

And if violence occurs, the backlash against Muslims (including all innocent law-biding citizens) will erupt... possibly mimiking the white-riots in Australia.

I hope there is some good news very soon! We can't underestimate the gravity of this situation.

At 2/02/2006 01:28:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Weapons of those countries should also be boycotted then. Who wants to fight using infidel weapons, huh?

At 2/02/2006 01:34:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

Oh anon, how could I forget that. Weapons, guns, fighter airplenaes. hell, and airlines. Boycott Lufthansa, airfrance, alitalia and Iberia. Boycott going to those countries in the summer as well. Yeah. Staying in the middle-east during the summer. That should show..someone. Hmmm......

At 2/02/2006 01:38:00 AM, Blogger shamoussa said...

Well, I think the solution is going back to live in tents in the desert and use camels for transportation. I mean you never know who's gonna do what next to offend us and we'll have to boycott almost everything.. So, since we produce amost nothing.. err, I guess we should go back to the desert, no?

At 2/02/2006 01:59:00 AM, Blogger Jordan said...

Incedently, the group calling for the death penalty, Al Ghurabaa, openly leaves their phone number on its web site and organizes events and lectures.

I can't believe Britian hasn't arrested and deported these jihadist! There is a difference between being tolerant, and being suicidal.

It reminds me of the Simpsons episode when Marge couldn't get Chief Wiggams to protect her.

Marge: "Do I have to be dead before you'll help me?"

Wiggum: "Well, not dead -- dying." [Marge gets up to leave] "No, no, no, no. Don't walk away. How about this: just show me the knife ... in your back." [Marge leaves] "Not too deep, but it should be able to stand by itself"

(sorry, last Simpsons quote... for a while...) :)

At 2/02/2006 02:02:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Focusing on the Danish issue and defending the Danish solidly!!! I guess instead you should focus in something else, something that is more positive in all the negativity that surrounds us. As we all know Egypt now hosts the African cup of nations. I am not saying promote that, because I am sure there are marketing people that will do a far better job that you would ever do .. my point in brief is you should focused on the positive vibe that the country is facing which is the sense of belongings that is coming back to us, seeing a huge amount of Egyptians gathering for one thing and unified for the same cause Egyptians by from different backgrounds, genders, classes all gather around hold the same flag supporting the national team.. that sense of nationalism that intense we did have it for such a long time. Even though it happened for football, but that could be a start for a huge thing… currently I am in Germany.. Everything now is about football here , the national team is in every ad. You could thing of, even washing machines…I guess my point is clear.

One last comment ,if you want to be a rebel make it for a cause, and try to chose a positive one.. other wise it is just wasted energy.. in other words WE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT BOYCOOTEINE THE BOYYCOTT ..

At 2/02/2006 02:18:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PHP should also be boycotted!


At 2/02/2006 02:28:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Sandmonkey. Thanks you for your support and wise comments. in Denmark we all praise the Sandmonkey.....Today an Icon of tolerance, Iman Fatih Alev, explained to Arabic media that the Government can't act against the independent media, something which is apparently hard to understand for some….Now when it comes to the anonymous posting above….oohh yeah nationalism, as displayed through football is surely something too admire. Surely nothing brings us together like when we see our players break the legs of people from other nations, insult them by chanting, making obscene gestures while proudly waving our national flag….. Nationalism is not the way, blogging with my international brothers and sisters is the only way.

All praise the Sandmonkey for sticking it to the hypocritical regimes that oppress their people.

At 2/02/2006 02:42:00 AM, Blogger Kat said...

Anon is offended I think.

What's the matter? The proof of stupidity must rankle severely.

Frankly, the way this works is, if your faith cannot stand up to questions including images of your god, prophet or other religious symbols, if the story of their lives cannot be questioned, poked at, turned over and even burned down a time or two, what good is your faith and whom are you protecting?

Cannot the almighty Allah stand a little criticism? If they are omnipotent, then can the words of man harm him/her?

If these words or images harm Allah, then how omnipotent is he/she?

If the harm is only in your mind, how strong is your faith?

Those are the questions I ask and anon is apparently afraid of someone asking the questions of their people over and over again (since that is what is required) because it might make them think.

I understand people complaining about their religion being attacked, but I do believe there is a difference between words and images that question and destruction of faith which is completely personal, thus the harm in the images seems to be overstated by the "offended" parties.

I just want to know when they are going to start boycotting al jazeera since they keep showing nutcases claiming to speak with authority on the religion of Islam who clearly denigrate the religion by threats of violence and idiotic conspiracy theories.

Or, how about boycotting Iran products, vacations, etc since it is clear that they will have the bomb soon and the magical kingdom and Egypt will be SOL, kissing Persian ass once again because they've got the nukes.

How about boycotting work in Egypt since it is clear that the elections are rigged and it is the taxes from your hard earned work and spending habits that are keeping the government afloat?

I can think of many more useful boycotts, but, of course, no one is going to do that because it is safer to boycott some tiny country whose free press makes pictures of the prophet than to fix your own Allah be damned problems (blog owner and most commentators excluded).

At 2/02/2006 02:46:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


Who is this "We" anon 2:02? And if you had enough, then why are you reading this assasan? And where were you lammah el sms messages wel e-meelat sada3et demaghnah? 3ala2al el7ag sandmonkey keeps it on his blog and doesn't forward me any annoying e-mails or sms.

How about you go and write about something positive instead of bitching about what Sandmonkey here writes?

Sandmonkey, I am a longtime reader from Egypt, first time poster. Keep up the good work!

At 2/02/2006 06:01:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good work, but i really doubt egyptians or arabs will boycot Mercedes or any car whether german, french , italian or spanish. They can pretend to boycot some products in a supermarket but major products they cannot & will not. Incidently, i knew someone a few years ago who was calling for the boycot of american goods, was distributing leaflets & had loads of them in his car to give yet, he was dying to live in the States & get a green card, how more hypocritical can someone get before turning schezophrenic???

At 2/02/2006 06:18:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

SM: Inspired! like fine wine, you get better with age.

You and "the religious policeman" are in the top tier.

At 2/02/2006 06:28:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sandmonkey, I've read your blog for a month or so now and count it among my favorites- good job! A small point, Lamborgini is now owned by Audi hence you can drive them for more than 50 miles without breaking down. Also, and pardon my ingnorance but what are german sheisse videos?

At 2/02/2006 07:36:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Sandmonkey, I've read your blog for a month or so now and count it among my favorites- good job!"

Me to.

At 2/02/2006 07:39:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 6:28
You dont know what german scheisse videos are? try adding blue somewhere in the sentence & you must surely get it
Audi has bought Lamborghini? i didnt know this, but anyway, audi is owned by VW.
By the way Sandy, You forgot what is more than just consumer products, Heavy Industry machinery & its Spare parts.
I wonder what is going on with married egyptians with wives from these countries, should they boycott them too in bed till their wives denounce their citizenship & burn their passports? what about kids who are mixed, will they be bullied at school?
Turns out Lakah owns the Soir paper that republished the cartoons & the editor got sacked today for it, there will be a backlash for this decision i guess.
Why dont Arabs or Islamic organisations do the same fuss when terrorists in Iraq slit throats of innocent individuals or kill others by means of suicide attacks or shootings? these terrorists are doing it in the name of Islam, using God´s name & the prophet to legitmise it, which is more heinous in their eyes? silly cartoons that only a few people saw but thanks to them, now millions will see it or those whos violent acts are making a mockery of religion?

At 2/02/2006 08:35:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shehab :
BOYcott works weather you like it or not.
the Danish gov. is taking serious steps
French news paper’s editor got sacked..
And more yet to come

if you can not boycott Danish products that are primarily milk and chocolate etc..
then really you are hopeless..
normally i do not criticize sandmonkey´s comments.. but in this case YES..
oh yeah and another thing... i would appreciate it if you would speak with more respect because i do not bitch.. you are the BITCH BIATCH.. if you want to lower the level of respect .. OK.. be my guest.. I can speak to you in a language that you understand ..

you being in Egypt now does not really give you the scope of what is happening in Europe, .. currently i am in Europe, and i live in this cartoon issue stuff all day at work, after work and in day to day things.. the thing that you need to understand THAT THE WEST THINKS we are all the same meaning we Arabs Muslims are only trouble makers which is not true. But man if you make fun of OUR ICONS I will be PISSED no doubt about it we do not care about the freedom of speech when you make fun of your ICONS your GODS or PROFITS but not with ours.. imagine if el Ahram comes one day with a cartoon making fun of Egypt what is going to happen Coptics in the USA will start moaning sanctions will made on Egypt, Azhar sheikhs will come out apologizing for what happned, and know what do we have YET i find a BLOG supposedly done by an Egyptian saying BOYCOTT the BOYCOTT !!!
UNITE and not divide..

At 2/02/2006 08:38:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i Said J E S U S but for some reason it got deleted..

imagine if el Ahram comes one day with a cartoon making fun of J E S U S Egypt what is going to happen Coptics in the USA will start moaning sanctions will made on Egypt, Azhar sheikhs will come out apologizing for what happned, and know what do we have YET i find a BLOG supposedly done by an Egyptian saying BOYCOTT the BOYCOTT !!!
UNITE and not divide..

At 2/02/2006 08:43:00 AM, Blogger GC said...

Obviuosly this'll be the end of the boycott story. However, waht's more worrying is the demonstrations being planned over the weekend in Europe where there were reports that right wing demonstrators will be burning Qurans there. If this happens, the shit will really hit the fan. I hope this thing doesn't escalate otherwise we will all lose here.

At 2/02/2006 08:49:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is getting more interesing, this is today from the TIMES.
" Peter Mandelson today warned Muslim countries that they risk breaking trade law if they boycott Danish goods in protest at the publication of 'blasphemous' cartoons of the prophet Muhammad"

Imagine arab countries boycotting the whole of Europe, then Europe will Boycott them, who will be the major loser i wonder?

At 2/02/2006 08:55:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JORDAN joins the club:!!

a JORDANIAN paper has decided to publish 3 cartoons and calling muslim to calm down!


At 2/02/2006 09:15:00 AM, Blogger admin said...

Boycott work
wlahi work
low mish mesda2a
look to yemen news and saudi and egypt

ya sadik eldenemearkiin moot beghezak

At 2/02/2006 09:28:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...


Mashy ya emad. Eshta. they work. we maloh.

No excuse me, 7aroo7 amot begheizy. :)

At 2/02/2006 09:33:00 AM, Blogger The Sandmonkey said...

Anon, I didn;t say you shouldn;t be pissed. Have you read everything I wrote on this? I know how we are viewed by europe, and my point has always been, don't allow them to prove what they say about us by being emortional reactionaries who condone violent responses or irrational ones. I mean you ask us to unite and not divide when nasrallah from Hezballah just said that "if someone had just killed salman rushdie none of this would've happend" and "that one blowing himself up in denmark is freedom of expression". I doubt you agree with that or stand united with someone who says that, would you? I know I can't!

Hmm, maybe I should write one last post on this. One that explains how we should've responded and gotton even.

At 2/02/2006 09:45:00 AM, Blogger Dr Victorino de la Vega said...

I guess it all comes down to what Robert E. Howard said when he created the character of Conan the Barbarian:
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing".

To most “civilized” post-Enlightenment Westerners, Islamic Law (mainly based on the Hebrew Old Testament) is straightforwardly barbaric and repulsive in itself- see Hegel, Renan and other mainstream 19th century European thinkers who have contributed to shaping our view of Islam and the Orient.

It’s sad to see this kind of cultural stereotyping still persists to that day, on both side of the cultural/religious divide for that matter: that hapless Danish cartoonist is as backward as his Saudi censors and probably views them as fanatical fools; whereas they’re probably utterly convinced that a second-tier Scandinavian newspaper must be part of some “Occidental Masonic conspiracy” designed to destroy Allah and his beloved bearded vicar!

But it wasn’t always so Manichean: ironically, throughout the Middle-Ages and until the 18th century, many libertine Western aristocrats and free-thinking philosophers were actually attracted by Islam precisely because they viewed it as a more rationalist and modern faith than Christianity: after the defeat of Napoleon’s republican “Grand Army” and the return to power of the rightwing Catholic kings of France, several of Napoleon’s revolutionary generals choose to move to Cairo and some even converted to Islam.

But this was then…the times have changed and two hundred years of fanatical Wahhabi activism boosted by Saudi Arabia’s immense oil revenues, compounded by France and England’s brutal colonial practices in the Middle-East and North Africa, and America’s unwavering backing of Israel’s war crimes have succeeding in tilting the Mohammedan collective psyche towards a very reactionary interpretation of Islam, which in many ways is simply a natural defense reflex albeit an obscurantist and backward one…

Isaac Newton's Third Law of Motion states: “To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts. Whatever draws or presses another is as much drawn or pressed by that other”.

Prescient words in many ways...

At 2/02/2006 09:59:00 AM, Blogger Seneferu said...

Anonymous at 9:35,

"But man if you make fun of OUR ICONS I will be PISSED no doubt about it we do not care about the freedom of speech when you make fun of your ICONS your GODS or PROFITS but not with ours.."

Ahem...Prophets not profits.

" and know what do we have YET i find a BLOG supposedly done by an Egyptian saying BOYCOTT the BOYCOTT !!!
UNITE and not divide.."

Unite intelligently, not behind stupidity. Boycott stupidity!

At 2/02/2006 10:20:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh god no.. All but the french kisss

SAM : I expect a Danish , french or german citizen to be taken as a hostage in Iraq.. And be killed if those countries refused to apologize...

sad but It fairly probable


At 2/02/2006 11:32:00 AM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Jordan, that was an interesting link!

"The insulting of the Messenger Muhammad (saw) is something that the Muslims cannot and will not tolerate and the punishment in Islam for the one who does so is death."

That's not a blog, it's an organization... in Britain. Assuming that making death threats is illegal in Britain (as it is in all civilized countries) these people should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest possible extent of the law. Very publicly, and very soon.

At 2/02/2006 12:03:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Religious "freedom" according to Islam:

"In a country ruled by Muslim authorities, a non-Muslim is guaranteed his freedom of faith... Muslims are forbidden from obliging a non-Muslim to embrace Islam, but he should pay the tribute to Muslims readily and submissively, surrender to Islamic laws, and should not practise his polytheistic rituals openly."

How would moslems feel if they were prohibted from publicly practicing Islam in Christian lands?

I don't understand all these complaint about headscarves in France, after reading about Dhimmitude. Do moslems really feel ENTITLED to be treated better than they treat others?

Too much sense "entitlement" in the Arab world. It's gotta stop. I'm so fucking tired hearing all the justifications for criminal acts and all the justifications for religious intolerance, all the justification for anger and hatred. All the justifications why Moslems should not be held to teh same standards that everyone else in the world is.

I'm starting to think the cartoon crisis is going to be a sea-change in the way the west views Islam. By which I mean that a lot of people who used to be tolerant are going to start believing that Islam really *is* incompatibile with the rest of the world.

People think they are defending the Prophet? They are destroying him.

At 2/02/2006 12:21:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

great post SM. I checked out the http://www.alghurabaa.co.uk/ website & I laughed out loud for at least 4 minutes when I realized that the "Trinity of EVIL!" graphic contained the French, Danish, & Norwegian flags(w/ flames of course).
That's the trinity of evil? Gee guys, I know you're angry freaks & everything, but have some focus.

At 2/02/2006 12:30:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr Victorino, thank you for articulating my exact thoughts about the modern middle east and false conventional wisdom orientalistic perceptions of it in a way that I couldn't have done if I've tried for a 100 years, putting a thing in a nut shell couldn't be more perfect, but more than that thank god that there's finally someone in addition to Twosret who knows what he's talking about in this blog, please keep on writing.
Also, a tin tin fan couldn't go wrong :), although I disagree with your choice about Tintin and the land of the soviets (i was a bit disappointed by the quality of the drawings and it's lack of colors), The Picaros and The Calculus affair are my favorirtes.

At 2/02/2006 12:38:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are lots of worse stuff than that but the point i want to make is, These rules are not quranic but merely what a scholar wrote over 1200 years ago & was implemented in time of the Arabic Empire glory, but for some reason arabs extended it to be the word of God, when it isnt.
There are some Quranic laws that are obsolete & were abrogated a long time ago, what you wrote isnt Islam but a point of view of a human who lived a long time ago.

At 2/02/2006 12:53:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A European historian said, in many ways, what del avega said, yet was lambasted as an anti arab zionist.
But that line" succeeding in tilting the Mohammedan collective psyche towards a very reactionary interpretation of Islam" is actually not true, Arabs in general think with their emotions rather than their logic & mind. What we are seeing is simply Gaheliyah in its purest form. Mind you, Ancient Arabs had more brains than their descendants today.
& as for twosret knowing what she or he is talking about, that was a good joke indeed.

At 2/02/2006 01:28:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jokerman, you're wasting your time now by repeating the same statements you've said before and which I agree with you on them by the way. PC is again starting a theological argument, which in order to be a fair one, all those controversial aspects of islam has to be compared to all of the worlds religions views with their regard, but since I'm sure that you as well as myself don't want to start slinging mud by quoting inexplicable and seemingly irrational and extremely violent verses of other religions (as a lot of people on this blog liberally do with regard to islam, and who would suddenly feel extremely insulted if you returned the favor, because, you know, islam is fair game in their view), because first of all I believe in the validity of every religion, and that the positive potential of any religion far outweighs the negative ones, it's just that we human beings suck. And second because insulting or questioning someone else's religious beliefs is absolutely ugly and useless and counterproductive, and might unintentionally hurt the feelings of a lot of good people that you weren't even addressing. So the best way to try to ignore from now on any attempt to start a religious argument.
Craig, read Dr Victorino's post, it might explain a lot of things to you, I also recommend checking his blog.

At 2/02/2006 01:34:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wasn't joking man, Twosret is awesome, I have enough confidence in her that I don't only agree with everything she's written, I already agree with everything that she's going to write in the future.

At 2/02/2006 03:00:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

Mohamed, I wouldn't be so quick to endorse Vic's words.

For one thing, he's a revisionist historian, a fact twister, a dealer in false analogies and a philosophical whore.

For another thing, I suspect he doesn't even understand the bogus arguments he attempts to make well enough to even support them, when challenge. This for instance:

"Isaac Newton's Third Law of Motion states: ..."

"Prescient words in many ways..."

So, that's not a scientific LAW OF PHYSICS anymore... it's "prescient words"

Science is prophecy now? Is it witchcraft as well?

And for a third thing, he isn't really "on" Sandmonkey's blog. He did what he always does. He spammed pasted the exact same comment to every blog he reads. Check the Lebanese blog that SM linked in this post. You'll see the same comment there. I'm sure if you look around you'll see it a dozne other places too. Word for word.

For yet another reason to disregard Vic... he usually responds to criticism by changing the discussion, or adding to the current discussion, without ever addressing the points he was challenged on. A cheap tactic.

He may or may not respond to you or me in this thread, but I'll bet you that if he does, his response will be as irrelvant as it always is.

In short, Vic is not here to speak the truth. He's here to obfuscate and mislead.

At 2/02/2006 03:14:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

"but since I'm sure that you as well as myself don't want to start slinging mud by quoting inexplicable and seemingly irrational and extremely violent verses of other religions"

Mo, that's not the point. It's not merely a historical argument. Christianity is BANNED in Saudi Arabia. It's a *current* problem. Not a historical one. How can Saudis, for instance, complain that moslems in france cannot wear a hijab in public schools, when in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia it's ILLEGAL to practice any religion but Islam?

I don't get it. It seems absurd to me, for the Saudis to be bitching and moaning about relgious freedom, as if they actually understand "religious freedom" as a concept. It's a cheap stunt.

"It doesn't matter how much I offend against your religion, I absolutely DEMAND that you do not offend mine!"

Medieval mind set. In the 21st century.

At 2/02/2006 04:04:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig, and that's precisely why you'll never find me (or jokerman for that matter probably) ever jump to the defense of saudi arabia, actually my whole argument that I've repeated over and over is that if you're viewing islam through a narrow talibanic/saudi/alqaedan viewpoint then ofcourse you'll definitely get a nightmarish view, but if you do so, you'll have to allow people of other religions to view christianity through a medieval inquisitor's or pat robertson's eyes, and judaism through Kahana or shas or kach's eyes, just to be fair, but what you're doing here is that you're picking what agrees with your already preconcieved notions.
Also, trust me I know enough middle east history, specially 19th century one, to claim that vic knows what he's talking about, and I don't see anything wrong with posting his opinions on as much blogs as you he could, that's a very effective way to get his word across, syndicated columnists publish their opinions on tens of different papers, it's not that sm has exclusive rights over his opinions and that he'd fire him :).

At 2/02/2006 04:39:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

"Also, trust me I know enough middle east history, specially 19th century one, to claim that vic knows what he's talking about"

By which, you mean to say that you agree with him :)

I view him as part of the problem that you were JUST talking about. He creates misconceptions. Just because you subscribe to his particularly world view doesn't make either you *or* him right, you know.

As to your comments about Saudi Arabia... well... that's the version of Islam that is in effect in the Arab world, is it not? To a greater or lesser degree in various places... but we are seeing it play out over this Danish cartoon issue, Saudi Style... and we aren't seeing much opposition to it anywhere but the blogs... so...

It MAY be a misconception on my part, but all I've got to go on is what I see REALLY happening in the world. Actions speak louder than words.

At 2/02/2006 05:27:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok Craig, now you've given me an opportunity to prove my point :), your claim that the saudi version of islam is the predominant one in the arab world tells a lot about your knowledge or lack of about the middle east, it means that you think that christianity is banned in all other arab countries (because that's the case in saudi arabia as you've said), also it means that you think women aren't allowed to drive in the arab countries (because they're not in saudi arabia), also it means that you think there's no movie theaters in the arab countries (because there's non in SA), also it means that you think that women aren't allowed in the streets unless they cover their hair in the arab countries (because that's the case in SA), you know what, again, I can go on forever.
The thing is that if you demonstrate such lack of knowledge of the middle in a matter as simple as that (and believe me your statement shows that with no ambiguity), I don't understand how can you dismiss vic's views which are based on solid historical knowledge as misconceptions, what kind of revisionist history do you think he's espousing, if you don't know any factual knowledge about the region's history yourself.

At 2/02/2006 07:41:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...


I don't see how you can make all those assumptions about what I think, based on my statement that I think Saudi Arabia sets the tone for other Islamists in the ARAB world. Iran does "crazy" differently, but we aren't talking about Iran at the moment. It was the Saudis who backed the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan and Pakistan, them and nobody else... and that's where Al Qaeda came from. It was the Saudis who founded Wahabbi madrassas all over the world, inlcuding in the United States... themn, and nobody else. It's the SUADIS who've been creating all these god-damned lunatics who keep showing up on the television and in print. Them, and nobody else. Just because other countries in the region haven't embraced it Saudi brand extremism in it's entirety, doesn't mean that they haven't embraced it. If KSA is not at the heart of Arab Islam, then who is?


Man, I'm not even going to waste time listing anymore... I think you must get my point, no?

And I'm sorry, we are not talking about HISTORY here, Mohamed. We are talking about RELIGION and INFLUENCE.

And if you don't even know the difference, then I'm done talking at you. Your insulting comment to me wasn't even relevant, you put words in my mouth and then attacked me for thinsg I never even said.

I see now why you like Vic :P

That's his style too.

At 2/02/2006 07:51:00 PM, Blogger programmer craig said...

By the way,

Your name is Mohamed.
That means you must be an Arab.
Which means you are a muslim.
Which means you must be a terrorist.
Which means you are a murderer.
Which means you deserve to die.

That's what you just did to me, Mo. Feels good, eh?

At 2/03/2006 04:45:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh on - it spreads!

I have just learned that a newspaper from Greenland have published some of the drawings!

Have a look http://www.sermitsiaq.gl/

Lets boycott ice-cubes!!!!


At 2/03/2006 04:53:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, Greenland does not expect too much unrest over the drawings in Greenland.

As far as they know, there is only one muslim there..

At 2/03/2006 05:34:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mohamed, read what you wrote about Twosret again.
I have read many writers & historians & not one have i totally agreed with their views in that destructive way you mention.
Sure there are bits you agree with, bits you dont, bits that make you think but Twsoret isnt a historian nor an objective observer even. twosret is Prejudiced with limited perception & has far too much free time.
But since you like his/her views that much, why not compile their comments to keep yourself an irrefutable absolute reference? now thats a thought, dont you think?

At 2/03/2006 09:44:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Craig, that's what you exactly said "It was the Saudis who backed the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan and Pakistan, them and nobody else.."
Really Craig? Them & nobody else? Are you sure?
Also, I'm talking history because in order to explain anything that's happening today you have to understand it's historical context, for example, there's no way you can understand the iranian revolution without going back 25 years earlier and learn about the overthrow of a democratically elected prime minister (Mussadaq) and reinstating a dictator (the shah), you can't talk about religious extremism in the middle east without knowing about 19th century colonialism, then Sykes-Picot, culminating in the perfect storm of the seventies starting with increased influence and cash flow of sa, then Sadat's catastrophic gamble of propping up the moslem brotherhood and even more extreme groups to counter the leftists influence in egypt, and the iranian revolution (which started as a leftist liberal one by the way, but something happened in the middle and one day the iranians woke up with the Khomeini at the helm) and concluding with the war in afghanistan. And also if you knew a little history you'd know that religious extremism in it's current form was non-existant in the middle east just 30 years ago, as an example, in the period between 1923 to 1952 in Egypt, when there were real parliamentary elections, the overwhelmingly popular party was a liberal secular one (Al Wafd), while the moslem brotherhood's influence was considered marginal at best.

At 2/03/2006 10:11:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Muslim hypocrisy: Being angry over the Danish cartoons while at the same time burning a Danish flag(which happens to have a cross on it).

At 2/09/2006 09:45:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The muslims wonders why the world looks at them the way that they do, look at your actions over some cartoons drawings in a news paper. Like the old saying goes actions speak louder than words. You talk badly about Christians and the Jewish all the time, but yet when some one draws some silly cartoons you go and actlike crazy,raving lunatics. You say people disrepect your prophet, he is your prophet not ours the non muslims. So why should we have to show him respect. And how does anyone really know what mohammed looks like anyways. It was just a cartoon drawing, a joke. I say get over it and move on.

At 2/10/2006 01:31:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Ice cubes". That's priceless!


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